I didn't take my husband's last name. This drives my grandfather crazy, and my husband's family doesn't even ~know~, which drives ME crazy.

I do have a few friends who have kept their own names, though they tend to be less confident in it than perhaps they ought.

I would like to alternate the last names for our (future) children. In familial baby's-last-name matters, my brother's wife gave their baby his name, and they weren't married at the time (though, her family was abusive, and she later abandoned her 'maiden' name gladly)- the hospital didn't bat an eye. My uncle's girlfriend gave their baby his last name, and they have no marriage plans ever.

I kept my name because it's not broken.

I don't need to obliterate my own identity, name-wise, to feel 'married'.

The man I married has a daughter who took her stepfather's last name when her mother remarried, so now the three of us have different last names, and yet we all manage to function as a family. Amazing.

My boyfriend and I have been caught up in the Great Name Debate for awhile now - it's about the one Big Issue we still have to resolve before moving past boy/girlfriend status. He doesn't want to give up his last name (and he has thought about it, so it's not just a knee-jerk "that's not how it's done" reaction) while I have no particularly strong ties to my last name but don't want to just blithely take on his when we marry. We considered just keeping each of our individual names, but we're not sure how it'd work out when it comes to giving kids last names. We considered just changing both of our names completely and now we're looking at hyphenation, even though I don't think our names sound particularly great together. In short: it's a mess.

More relevant to the actual article, I saw a speech earlier this year on the sexism in name-change applications. Apparently many states have a relatively easy paper work process for women changing their surnames (I think it's basically present a marriage license and you're good to go), whereas for men they have to actually go to court and maybe even have special paperwork drafted. Aside from taking ages longer for men to change their names than for women, it's also a hell of a lot more expensive!

I kept my name, and I'm thrilled with that choice. Some family members and "friends" are not so thrilled, and some of them are big enough assholes to always insist on addressing things to Cara My-Husband's-Last-Name. It pisses me off because it's incredibly disrespectful. I don't insist on calling them by their "maiden" names, you know?

Anyway, I'm glad to see that they've done this, though I certainly don't agree with the idea that we no longer live in a patriarchal society. That's just wishful thinking.

It's worse than that, Jessica: What name a child carries, and who named him or her, is actually apparently relevant in child custody cases. Even though it's not written down anywhere, the first question asked me by the Friend of the Court investigator, the mediator, and the judge was always, "What's the child's name?" (My son has my last name) and "Who named him?" (I chose his name). Some have speculated that that indicates the nature of the relationship between the parents or the expected relationship at the time of the child's birth. (I now have full custody.) I know one single mother in Canada who couldn't get child support until she paid the fee to have her child's last name changed to the father's.

My parents both kept their own names when they got married; my mom is a feminist, and I think that she got frustrated at losing track of so many of her friends when they got married and thus basically disappeared from the record - by name, anyway. When I was born, I was given a combination of my parents' last names - an invented name, in other words. Family pressure (mostly from my maternal grandmother) about the supposed impact on me later of three names in the household caused my parents to change their names to match mine. Thus my parents, my son, and I are the only Burstrems in the world. And I was the first to carry that name. I'm married now, but I've kept my last name, purportedly to continue matching my son's name, but also because I've published under it. But really, I think that I wouldn't want to change it anyway. Names are so much about identity that to me it feels that a wife taking a husband's name on marriage means that his identity doesn't change but hers does - and often that is how decisions are made from then on as well. Words are more powerful in their impact like that than many people think.

Now that I'm married, my experience with our names has been ridiculous. Most people here in the Southwest (and in my husband's family) assume that I changed my name and simply address me by my husband's last name. Some have not even known that it was possible to get married without automatically changing your name. No, you automatically keep your name UNLESS you change it - and as you said, that's a lot of work! I enjoy telling random callers that there is no one with the name "Mrs. Clinefelter" here, but I am Mr. Clinefelter's wife. "Of course," they respond nervously. When I contacted an estate lawyer and attended a financial planning workshop and then brought my husband there with me, the form that they gave us to fill out assumed that the contact person is always the husband and the spouse tagging along is always the wife. Then after I made the necessary corrections to that form, our mail thereafter put his name first and addressed him more than it did me. I called them to complain, and at first the woman who answered the phone explained that that's just how their software works - presumably to keep from offending all of the patriarchs out there. I pointed out that their software was rather offensive. One of the senior White male lawyers called me later to apologize, but he didn't indicate that there would be any change. (They were incredibly ageist as well, failing to greet me at the door of this workshop as they did with all of the others in attendance when I came alone before my husband and son arrived. They shook his hand and introduced themselves when he came in, though. He is fifteen years older than me, but I am often mistaken for being as much as nine years younger than I am, which would make me a minor. On the other hand, maybe that is sexism too.)

Then when we bought a house together, his name ended up on the "home buyer" and "homeowner" blanks, and mine was always listed as the "co-buyer" - or omitted altogether, as is often the case with our mail. He is usually good about pointing out the problem when he deals with these people; for instance, when we inspected the house, only one person's initials and signature were necessary on the form. He insisted on leaving room for mine as well on the same lines, though.

My mom has had the same experience for years. Once, when she invested her own money with a financial planner, the man put my dad's name on the account even though he had never been involved with the investment! Even worse, when her doctor realized that she was going to lose her baby (my older sister), instead of telling her right there at the office, he called my dad and told him. That was less than thirty years ago.

"It’s hard to believe that most young women secretly harbor these radical ideas..." [Kasic on the idea of *gasp* hyphenating a last name] if this is her idea of radical... i may just change my name to fish face. (uncapitalized, even.)

i won't even delve into the fact that queers are absolutely invisible regarding this issue due to the fact that they can't even get married to change (or not change) surnames. i'm not versed enough to get into same sex adoption issues, does anyone know how that works in the courts? i'll have to research...

At least The DC City Council rapidly realized their error and moved to correct it.

I was really beside myself when I got married as to whether or not to change my name. I like the notion of being "The Whatevers" but as freelance artist I wanted to keep my name professionally to hang on the tiny amount of name recognition I do have. My husband really strongly identifies by his last name, to the point that it's in all his screen names, emails, nicknames and what have yous, so changing it was not a popular suggestion. Hyphenating was out of the question because that would create an unpronounceable five syllable trainwreck full of accent marks and random capital letters.

I ended up taking his last name in addition to mine and using them personally vs. professionally. Which is admittedly confusing and I've been rather lax about changing my paperwork.

I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of people that asked what I decided to do rather than just assume I would take his last name.

I took my husband's name, but I'd like to hold onto my feminist card, if I can, please.

My maiden name was gawdawful. It was the sort of name that, when combined with my body type, turned into a hurtful playground taunt that followed me all the way through college and into the professional world. My identity with that name was tied up in being lonely, shunned and miserable.

My husband's name is just awesome, which made the decision easier. It's also not that old of a name. His father made the choice as a young adult to change his name from the abusive father's name to the name of the adoptive stepfather who cared for him and loved him. That name was passed onto his son, and, like I said, it's awesome. I am honored to have it as my name, too.

My parents understand. My mother goes by her maiden name professionally for the same reason, and I think my dad's relieved the surname will die with him.

All that said, when we were filling out our license, the State of Hawaii gave us a choice of what our last name would be -- his last name, my last name, a hyphen, or a combination of our first or middle names, which cracked us up. ("Dear, the Elizabeth-Craigs are here.") It was non-biased, and I applaud the state for that.

Our home state, on the other hand, requires a husband go through a legal name change if he wants to hyphenate or take his wife's name. I've been leaning on my state rep to correct this. We'll see.

Hadn't thought about this one too much, cause I don't have a special someone right now. But it is something that's absolutely worth considering. I've met couples that didn't change their last name and made their family units work. The women I've known who didn't change their last names were just very assertive in letting people know this fact, which is cool. Personally, I'd go for the hyphenation thing for any children that I'd have. I do like the fact of the family sharing names (call me wimpy, but that's where I am right now).

Bottom line is, a couple should definitely discuss this way before any rice is thrown.

I cannot tell you how upsetting fighting over the name for our son was for my second husband and me. It was the closest we ever came to getting divorced, and has changed the way I think about his name and my husband's entire family.

Not only is the misogynistic, patriarchal way of naming wives and children a throwback to ownership of wives and children, but the way that even supposed "liberal" people react so violently and nastily to people who don't, even members of their own family, is really painful.

I took my husband's name when we married. Now I'm chomping at the bit for the divorce to be final so I can have my maiden name back. I hate having his name on mine after everything he put me through.

If I ever get married again, I'm most definitely keeping my own name. I'm not changing who I am again for any man.

I've never heard of a couple not being able to give a kid the monther's last name or a hyphenated last name.
My baby was born in Texas (of all places) and no one had a problem with him having my last name, rather than my husbands. Our next child will also have my last name. I'm the one giving birth after all!
Maybe my family just slipped through the system - I don't know! I certainly haven't met anyone else who chose to give the kids the mom's name. Even unmarried couples that I know tend to give the kids the dad's last name.
I have to say: I don't like the practice of hyphenating last names. I wonder what it would be like for my great-grandkids (if I have any) if they had multiple hyphens. It would get really ridiculous after a while.
I prefer it when a couple, who wants the same last name, just invents their own name. More of a hybrid than a hyphen. Or just a completely unrelated, new name.
Also, I STILL get mail addressed to Mrs. Husbands' First and Last Name. It drives me nuts. Even if we had the same last name, we wouldn't have the same first name! Jeez. What an insult!
Lastly, my husband and I did consider having the same last name. In the end, he didn't want to alienate his dad (he's a JR - there's another annoying tradition!) so he decided to keep his own name. I thought about taking his name for a little while. In the end, I'm lazy more than anything. But it was annoying to be pressured by our traditional families as well as our liberal friends (who were offended that I would even think about taking his last name without a hyphan). Frankly, its none of their business.
Sorry for the many typos!

There's also the option of a third, unrelated name. This might piss off family more than any of the above options, but it's probably the most fair--even with hyphenation, someone has to have their name listed first.

I'm in an academic field, so most of my colleagues just keep their own names, so that they don't have to reestablish their own, new, research persona, which obviously makes a lot of sense, obviously.

Of course, this is, once again, an agency issue. We shoudl get to choose what to call ourselves, and everyone has their own motives and reasoning behind their stance in the Great Name Debate. Why the hell should government get involved in the intricacies of what I call myself? Of course, I should be able to determine my own name when I marry.

81%, wow.

I married at 22 and had no career yet to speak of, and still kept my name. A few people raised eyebrows but no one seems to care.

Kids have his last name. I don't feel any less connected to them. I like his name, and hell, the kids' name has to come from somewhere, so why not? I just want my own name, please. (Kids have mine as a middle, and identify with both - no one has ever assumed I was not their mother).

Yes Kimmy, good point. More than half of all marriages end in divorce. Do you know what's worse than having to jump through all the hoops when you change your name when you get married? Having to do it all over again when you break up. Of course, it will never happen to you. (That's what the other 60% of divorcees think, too.)

It must really smart to be called by some asshole's last name by a salesperson or a credit card company, even years after you have divorced. It saddens me how many women keep their MARRIED name after divorce because it is their "identity". But, I don't get in anyone;s face about it, and it is depressing how many people have gotten in mine for my choices not to change my name.

By the way, the method use din many Asian and Latin American countries includes both surnames of the parents, regardless of whether the mother is married or uses her original name. (I hate the term "maiden" name. Like all unmarried women are virgins, please!) The father';s last name goes first, the mother's second, and when the name is written out in full, on legal documents, both names are there, with the mother's surname last. But, in every day life, usually the father's surname is used.

It was very easy for me the first time I had a child, because this is the way my Latin husband and his entire family structured their names. Unfortunately, my second set of in-laws didn't think this was a valid way to name my child, and made it very clear when they called me up and yelled at me, and had a phone tree going to everyone about what a crazy bitch I was. I valued having my children's names structured the same, and they didn't even KNOW that my older son's name was structured like that, legally. Obviously hadn't affected his life much.

This is a huge issue for me and while I don't judge anyone who chooses to change their name I find it very offensive that in this day and age women still do and are still expected to change their identities to that of a man. It disgusts me.
I work at a hospital foundation in Montreal and in Quebec women are always identified by their maiden names for government purposes. So everyday I have to deal with married women complaining that they were solicited by their maiden name and to please change their file to their married name. Of course I respect their wishes and make the change but damn it bugs me. Why do so many women want to be identified in terms of the man they married instead of being identified as who they themselves are?
The kid naming issue also bugs me. My sister gave her son her name and the father (he and my sis are not in a relationship) was so upset by this that he actually disowned the child. Can you believe it? He wants nothing to do with his own son just because he doesn't have his name. Disgusting.
One of my strongest childhood memories is my father explaining to my brother and I why he'd always wanted a son rather than a daughter: so the family name could be carried on. Even as a child I was insulted by the idea that I, as a female would not be allowed to carry on my name. I vowed then and there that if I ever had children they would damn well have my name! Now that I'm in a relationship and trying to get pregnant, my partner and I have discussed it and he too is quite loyal to his name. I hate hyphenation (and his name is long) so we compromised and decided that one child would have my name and the other would have his. (my name for a girl and his name for a boy unless we have two of the same sex in which case first born girl gets my name and so on). It's not a perfect compromise because not everyone in the household will have the same name but so what? Blended families are quite common these days so everyone having the same name isn't a given. All I know is that my name is damn important to me (even though it comes from my father and not my mother) and I want to pass it on, so my children will know their mother's identity is just as important as their father's.

OK, I swear this is my last comment. Can you tell this is a trigger issue to me.

Ticky, all due respect, no one said women who don't change their names are not feminists. I get annoyed at people who turn these debates around at make the majority the victim somehow.

I believe it queer rights, for example, and if a conversation comes up here about gay marriage, should I say "Well, I have married hetreosexually twice, can I still keep my feminism card?"

Please.

Uh, the edited version:

OK, I swear this is my last comment. Can you tell this is a trigger issue for me?

Ticky, all due respect, no one said women who don't change their names are not feminists. I get annoyed at people who turn these debates around to make the majority the victim somehow.

I believe it queer rights, for example. If a conversation comes up here about gay marriage, should I say "Well, I have married heterosexually twice, can I still keep my feminism card?"

Please.

(I can overlook one of two typos, but there were too many and I got twitchy. Does that count as another comment? I am clicking off the site now, I promise...)

I'm a male, and I wouldn't change my name at marriage.

Not because of any tradition thing or so forth, but because there is only one other person in Australia with the same surname as me, and that's my father. We really don't need another Jones or Smith.

That being said, if my future wife wouldn't want to change her surname to mine, that would be fine with me aswell.

Well, Hilary, since you brought it up, I have to tell you that I've been jumped on by other feminists as not being feminist enough (or worse, not wanting equal rights) because I took my husband's name. Hence the deprecatory card joke.

(I have also been scolded for marrying when my gay friends cannot, but that's another kettle of fish.)

I'm sorry - my whole problem with this is that we don't get much of a choice. I'm a feminist, and single, but will most likely change my name when/if I marry or have kids with someone (big if!). At the end of the day, all we have is a choice between our father's name or our partner's. Neither of those feel especially like 'mine'. I'd rather have the name of someone I've chosen to spend my life with than that of a parent who was absent for most of my childhood - though neither option really excites me.

I agonized over what to do with name...two years later, my unchanged name has not been a big deal at all. Most people don't care what my name is, and if they call me by the wrong name, they're easily corrected. I've had some problems with forms and joint bills, as Jessica mentioned in her comment above, but these, too, are easily remedied. I agree totally with Jessica V. Taking a husband's name, in most cases, is totally unnecessary, and the societal pressures that many fear of they don't are a lot more minimal than we assume.

I am 22 and I have grown up having a hyphenated last name. My last name isn't hyphenated because of my mother's last name, my father decided to change his last name to represent both his biological father and the father who raised him.
But I am kind of fond of it.
Sure, it's a pain in the ass when I go to fill out things and my last name gets chopped off to something ridiculous. Or when people ask for my last name and think I am not listening and put my first last name as my first name. Or all the horrible misspellings and mispronunciations because people simply do not pay attention.

I don't plan on taking my husband's (whoever he may be) last name. I may do some funky smooshing of names, but name(s) will still be there. I used to dream of having a name with 4 letters instead of 27. Now, I like the 27. Anything shorter wouldn't feel right.

My boyfriend is just as much of a feminist as me, and totally understands why I object to taking a new name upon marriage. My ex-boyfriend never could understand it and always whined, "It's about TRADITION!" or "What, don't you like my last name?" I would respond, "It's a dumb, sexist tradition" or "I have no problem with your last name. Why do you have a problem with mine?"

A few months ago, Marilyn vos Savant, the genius who writes for Parade magazine, touched upon this issue and I liked her response. She said that she believes male babies could carry on their fathers' surnames and female babies could carry on their mothers' surnames so we'd have a tradition that would honor both parents instead of totally ignoring one. I realize that this doesn't apply to same-sex couples, but I thought it was a neat idea.

I'm really undecided on the whole last name change (or not change) for myself, personally. I think if I had a better last name (you know, a prettier one that rolled off the tongue a little better) and was not so terribly unfond of most of my father's family, I would, without a doubt, never change it. If I marry someone with a very pretty sounding last name, I may want to take that. I like that my last name I was born with is somewhat unique. I don't want my last name to be Jones, Smith, Brown, etc. I do not think I'll ever drop my last name though. At the very least, I'd probably hyphenate. I'm not sure.

Anyway, all this babble to say that I think people do and do not change their last names for many reasons, but whatever reason they do or do not change their last names, I think as long as it is what they genuinely want and not something they feel pressured to do, then it is just fine.

Oy. Who needs sleep? Apparently I do.

When she got married, she did take my Dad's family name. But her father started addressing the letters he wrote her to "Mrs. Mark Cook." When she complained, he just stopped writing her at all! Crazy.

I prefer it when a couple, who wants the same last name, just invents their own name. More of a hybrid than a hyphen. Or just a completely unrelated, new name.

This is the direction I'm leaning in currently (not that it's a looming question, as I'm unattached at the moment). I would use my maiden name as an additional middle name (and hope my partner would with his too), so that we could continue to keep our family-of-origin identity, but also then choose a new family name that we would share and give to any children. The hyphen option just seems unwieldy (as people have pointed out) and wouldn't like not sharing a name with some or all of my children and my spouse. And I also don't like the idea of having to choose which family name to carry forward. A new, additional, name seems like a nice way to honor the creation of a new family.

I traded in my Jewish-Germanic last name for my husband's highly anglicized former Romanian name. Keeping my dad's last name never seemed like it would be me a major blow against the patriarchy. My mother's maiden name is my middle name--a tradition that will be carried on with my daughter.

My problem with hyphenated names is this--when two people with hyphenated names marry, do they then combine all four names? Or do they pick two? It just didn't seem like a practical choice for me or my family.

My husband was totally willing to take my last name, but I like his (our) name better.

Thanks to my mother marrying twice, my immediate family includes kids with two different surnames, my brother and I have one name, my half-sister another. (and while my brother's girlfriend lived with us as a member of the family, there were three names). Never had an issue with it. It's much simpler than you think, and no, no one got confused growing up.

Having been married twice, and then there was her maiden name, my mother decided to use the same surname as my little sister, so she wouldn't be "outnumbered." So there are now two 'Smiths' and two 'Jones' in the household.

Personally, I can't imagine taking my husband's name. Not unless there was some sort of mutual transformation of names. Though I don't like my current last name, it just never clicked with me. I've considered taking my mother's maiden name, or the maiden name of one of my female ancestors, but they're Eastern European, and the names are all a horrendous collision of consonants, with hardly a vowel in sight.

I kept my name after getting married; it felt like a natural thing to do. I mean, there was no real debate about it between now-my-husband and I--it was he who actually brought it up saying "You will be keeping your name, right?". Right. My family was fine with it, nobody really said anything. His family probably thinks I'm weird, but they don't say anything out loud. And some of my friends use both of our last names when mailing me stuff. I don't mind that at all.

And that's a great thing that they're changing the marriage licenses. Where I come from in Europe, it has been practice all along.

I especially abhor the whole "Mr. and Mrs. Husband's-last-name" deal. Does getting married mean losing your name altogether? I made sure that the justice of peace who married us didn't use "I present to you Mr. and Mrs. xxxx" at the end of our ceremony, but the envelope with our official marriage certificate still arrived addressed this way. Argh.

It does take some work to change things for the better, but this is your legacy to the next generation. Used to be that women couldn't wear pants or use Ms. Do you think it was easy for them to upset the grandfathers and husbands, and what-will-the- neighbors-say people? I don't buy the argument that women aren't attached to their names, or they hated their names so adopted their husbands or that there was no solution to the child naming issue other than laying down on the issue.

This is just rationalization. You can still be well-liked by the patriarchy in your family. "I'd do it if it weren't so hard, his name wasn't so much better than mine, and I'd have to take a stand in the family." Maybe it's a bargain you make so financial and emotional support won't be withdrawn if you behave. But for those of you who can do it despite the threats, thank you, thank you, thank you.

For those of you that don't, yet admit you wish you could, yes, you can be feminists, but admitedly, not as brave as some others. I don't fault women in Muslim dominated countries who can't go as far, where showing their hair is an act of freedom, so I can't know what pressures you are under to lose everything, or at least be too much trouble to your families and husbands that it would upset the whole kitty cart. Not everybody can take the risk of sitting in the front of the bus until the tipping point occurs. But I have my greater admiration for the heroines who do and in so doing, are making change. Just like the gays who first began to live openingly and in families. How wonderfully courageous. Yes I do judge. There are braver women than others and they deserve extra credit. And I applaud them.

The women here who have gone through divorce know that when the haze of being a man's woman goes away, you're left with the expense of name change and constant reminder when you divorce. Don't talk to me about how much trouble it is for a man to change his name. Try dealing with your name change after a divorce. If you kept your own name, so much easier on your finances and you get to keep your professional accomplishments and contacts so much easier. And by the way, why isn't your name good enough for your child?

Hey Charlie, I'm sorry you associate your name with your absent parent, but for me, my last name isn't my father's--it's mine! I have made my name what I want it to be. I didn't choose between "my father's or my partner's" because I don't believe that my partner has any more ownership over his (his father's?) name than I do over mine.

Do you think so much of this ambivalence that so many brides are showing over their names stems from this idea we grow up with that we don't really own our names?

She said that she believes male babies could carry on their fathers' surnames and female babies could carry on their mothers' surnames so we'd have a tradition that would honor both parents instead of totally ignoring one.

I don't like this idea because it reinforces a binary gender system for the kids (are the girls somehow MORE the mother's child? the boys somehow MORE the father's child?) and also what do you do with the children who are trans? Or, as you pointed out, same-sex parents with children of both sexes. Who'd get whose name?

It seems important, in my mind, that children in a family all share the same family name. Am I being old-fashioned??

(I have also been scolded for marrying when my gay friends cannot, but that's another kettle of fish.)

It's too bad you've gotten flack for this ticky. I have some really close friends who are gay (I'm straight), and I have definitely thought about whether or not I should--if/when the time comes--get married when they cannot. Why can't there just be civil unions for all!!! (I think that's what they have in England now). But I think the decision to "abstain" from marriage for political reasons should really be a personal decision. You can advocate for same-sex marriage as a married person just as strongly as if you remained unmarried.

My name isn't my father's. It was given to me because it was my father's, but it's been mine for going on 26 years now. I don't think it was a loan at the time, either.

I do think that women who change their names make it harder for the ones who don't want to, but to each their own. I'm sure I do things that make it harder for someone else; everyone does. Pick the battles you care about.

I am not going to change my name. I'll hyphenate with his, and I'll probably answer to folks who call me Mrs. Lastname, but it'll be through clenched teeth.

Thinking, and talking, a lot about immigration issues lately, I'm wondering why people tend to be so hung up on continuing their family name. Almost none of my family names are the original any more. My father's Scottish family name has changed to several variations over the past 200 years. My mother's side is full of Polish names that were changed (by the government) as people immigrated to the US. My mother's parents never really had their father's true last names because the changes are really drastic. Just something to think about I guess.

I changed my name when I got married. I went from a 3 syllable almost impronounceable by English standards name to a monosyllabic standard English name. Plus, I have an abusive and messed up family, and if you googled me you'd find me and my uncle the ax murderer (no joke). I didn't want to be associated with that, and I wanted to form a new identity away from my family. Thus, took the husband's name.

However, I always viewed that as the best choice for my situation, and by no means a default. If I liked my name or had positive associations with it, I would have kept it. As it is, I never assume a woman will change her name. I'm a wedding planner and I always ask what will happen with names after the marriage and give advice accordingly. Neither personally nor professionally do I assume the woman will change her name.

I also had one set of clients where the bride's last name was St. Bla and the groom's was a gorgeous Eastern European name. It would have been cute if they both changed to St. Groom's name and they almost did. Hands down the best version of combined names I've ever seen.

Betty, I think it's a little presumptuous to assume that all women feel a deep connection to their last names. I love my dad. I love his family. I have a very strong sense of my own identity as a woman, a writer, a singer, and an expectant mother. Absolutely none of those things are tied into my name. Maybe it's just because my family uses nicknames more than given names, but quite frankly, if I changed my first name as well, I would still feel like myself. I sure as hell don't feel like I lost any of my identity when I took my new name, and I'd be shocked if anyone who knew me felt that I've changed as a person since changing my name.

I would never take my husband's last name, even if I marry. My mother took my fathers name and they divorced, and she hasn't changed it back because at her age, there is so much damn paperwork floating around with her name on it- the mortgage and the credit cards and her licence and her library card and each loyalty card and everyhing else that she just doesn't have the time. I also love my last name because I am the only one in the world with my first name and last name, and damn it, I like that.

I hate that every time we discuss last names, a bunch of feminists come out and comment about either hating their last name because it was hard to spell/ too long/ whatever, or because they hated the people they got it from, and it was "their father's". No, its yours, you have had it for years. I think that if these women are really honest with themselves, the idea to change their last name is only there because of the patriarchy, not because they actually want to change it- or else these two types of women would have changed it at 18. There is nothing wrong with admitting they are victims of the patriarchy- its how we grow up, just like how I, as a white person, am racist- not because I am a bad person, but because I grew up in a culture that was and I picked up n that lesson.

My last name is hyphenated--my mom's name then my dad's--and I'll keep it that way when I marry. The argument that I'm really just choosing between having my father's (or in my case, father's and grandfather's) name or my husband's just doesn't make sense to me, at all. And not just because one of my names belonged most recently to my mother. I've had the same name my whole life. I have a college and a law school degree under that name. All of my professional accomplishments are under that name, and if I publish anything it will be under that name. (As an aside, one of the problems I have with the assumption that women will change their names is that it seems to assume that women, unlike men, haven't accomplished anything professionally that they would still wish to be identified with after marriage). The people who know and love me first knew me by that name. It's *my* name, not my fathers/grandfather's. Changing it doesn't make any sense to me.

That said, what I will do for my kids I don't know. My brother and his girlfriend recently had a baby, and decided ahead of time that it would have her last name if a girl, his if a boy, which is one way to do it. I'm curious about what people who aren't married when they have kids name their kids, since it seems like in that situation the woman pretty certainly hasn't changed her name--does that change how much pressure there is to give the baby the father's last name, or does it create more pressure, to offset some kind of stereotype of illegitimacy?

As a man it made no sense that our child would carry my father's name so we gave our son his mother's name. However my mother is still upset over 11 years later -- even though my father's name is a very common name, was not even the name he was born with, and her "maiden" name now no longer exists.

Ironically of me and my two brothers, none of our children ended up with the our father's last name (though one family reclaimed the orginal family name)

It's always seemed strange to me that my husband's family had less of an issue with me keeping my last name than my own family (who still send things to John and Lucy HistLastName, even when I know they know better; at this point, I can only assume they're doing it deliberately). I'm mostly sanguine about being called Mrs. HisLastName by people who don't know better, but if you ever want to see me get really steamed, call me Dr. HisLastName. Nuh-uh. That degree is mine. I also refuse to open mail address to Mr. and Mrs. John HisLastName. Petty, maybe, but I don't think it's asking too much that people include at least one of my names on things.

It's interesting to watch etiquette slowly catch up to reality. Just the other day, Dear Abby advised that a wedding invitation be addresses to Mr. John Smith and Dr. Helen Smith when the wife has the degree.

I hear ya, Kimmy and Betty. I also took my husband's name and then got divorced. I tried to keep my own name by making my last name into a middle name (so I have two), but I've been woefully unsuccessful there. Most places don't accept multiple middle initials, and some of them try to fix that by putting my second middle initial in the last name box, with a space, and then my last name. Result: Now I get mail addressed to some fictional person, whose last name was created when they deleted the space between my second middle initial and my last name.

And, of course, I was a dumbass and didn't have the judge restore my unmarried name during the divorce. At the time I wasn't ready to give up the new identity I'd forged for myself. ::smacks head:: Now, when people ask me my name, I will only give my first name, because I hate my ex's name so much. It will cost me $125 and a couple of days off from work to get this nonsense fixed. (Which doesn't sound like a lot, but on my budget ...)

The upshot is that when I get junk mail, I can usually tell whether the company really knows me or not based on whichever made-up name they send the crap to. (On the downside, apparently I have a host of made-up aliases on my credit report, none of which I have created myself!)

It seems important, in my mind, that children in a family all share the same family name. Am I being old-fashioned??

I don't necessarily think that you're being old-fashioned, but it just doesn't seem that important to me. If my first kid is named FirstName Partner'sLastName MyLastname and my second kid is named FirstName MyLastName Partner'sLastName, and they grow up together, I don't really see what they'll be losing by having different last names.

Emily and Thistle, I agree with you completely. It's as much my name as it is my father's.

I adopted my husband's last name when we got married partly because I liked his awkward German name slightly better than my redneck name and partly because I felt (though others in this thread have expressed their disagreement) that I was choosing between my husband's name and my father's name. Since I loathe my father and pretty much his entire extended family, it wasn't a hard decision. I do regret a bit that I didn't try to "reclaim" my original last name and keep it and make it my own, but honestly I'm not sure I could have with the baggage I have coming from that family. My original name didn't feel "mine" any more than my current one does.

This is actually a topic I've been thinking about lately and I wish I had a better option. Although I do feel like "choosing between my husband's and father's names" is somewhat akin to choosing which owner I want to acknowledge (ugh!), taking my mother's maiden name still would have been her father's name as well, and so on. There is no name floating around my family "name pool" that is not a male passed-on name. At the same time I want my identity somehow incorporated into my hypothetical future children's names--its grossly unfair for only my husband's name to be part of theirs when I'm the one who would be carrying them and giving birth. Bleh... what a mess.

"I hate that every time we discuss last names, a bunch of feminists come out and comment about either hating their last name because it was hard to spell/ too long/ whatever..."

Well, I hesitate to post this but I did change my name for that very reason. It was long and it has a silent "g" in it. That doesn't happen often in English (which my legal name is not) and I was sick of having it mangled. I looked into the process of legally changing my name before I graduated university because I didn't want to start my career with that moniker. I've seen enough glazed expressions when people confronted my name. It happens and I hated it.

But, changing my name legally was a big hassle. I'm a naturalized citizen and the paperwork/legal fees would have been insane. Plus, I didn't want a new naturalization card, Social Insurance Card and birth certificate (from my birth country, no less), etc.

When I got married, I was able to use my husband's lovely Anglo name without having to legally change mine. It was great. I'm still who I am but I can apply for work with a name that won't scare off employers.

Which is not to say that I'd do it again.

When acquaintances were getting married and the bride wanted to keep her name, the groom convinced her to change it by using me as an example. "Look at her, she's a feminist and she changed her name." When she told me that was the deciding factor in her decision, I was more than a little crushed. I did point out to her that feminism was about being free to make the choices that are right for you, not making the same choices as every one else but my words rang hollow in my own ears. I wish she'd spoken to me first. I would have advised her to keep her name and toss her fiance. Frankly, if my spouse had told me to take his name, I would've told him where he could shove his name.

Annajcook, I don't think you're being old-fashioned about the family name. We've been using our pets as a trial run for determining our kids' surnames. We gave our dog and cat hyphenated last names. Go figure--two vets, three pet stores, and one groomer all have them listed incorrectly. Hyphenating kids' names, even short, easy names like ours, seems like a major PITA.

That said, divorce and remarriage have been common for so long now that everybody knows a family with a bunch of different names (there are three represented in my aunt's family), and they seem to do just fine.

I kept my name, Elaine Vigneault. My husband kept his name, Ed Miller.

And when we have babies, they'll get new and separate names (we'll use first and last names from our family tree that didn't get passed down). And if we adopt the kids will keep their original names.

Our friends and family are fine with our name choices. See, they actually love and respect us. The only people our decisions about names have pissed off are the people who don't even know us - my husband's fans and my enemies. They are misogynist pigs.

"I enjoy telling random callers that there is no one with the name "Mrs. Clinefelter" here, but I am Mr. Clinefelter's wife."

Oo, I'm going to have to remember that one.

Like Cosmic, my now-husband brought up the notion of keeping my name. Thankfully, if anyone in either family batted an eye about it, it's never gotten back to me. But since his last name is neither that of his biological father nor that of the man he calls "Dad", I think his family understood. And although my Dad's family is fairly conservative, perhaps they were happy that their name was the one being passed on. The most confusion I ever got was a post-wedding check from my maternal grandfather addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. [Husband's Name]", and he quickly corrected that when I told him.

Along the same lines, we started going to an independent company to get our tax forms done when we found out that they, unlike H&R Block, automatically put the primary wage earner as the first name on the returns, rather than automatically putting the husband first.

The kids are going to have my last name. When the time comes, I'll have to see what the laws in Ontario are like concerning that.

I also want to point out that the Marilyn Vos Savant idea doesn't allow for the continuation of mothers' names if they only have boys and/or fathers' names if they only have girls ... and if someone chooses or is able to have only one child, one parent's name will definitely be "discontinued." Can we please resist the supposedly-ideal-family-boy-and-girl-standard here too?

SamBarge- I have to ask, if your last name sucked (and believe me, I understand, I have never had anyone pronounce my name correctly- and hell, half the family doesn't since my great aunt is Southern and has been mispronouncing it for two generations, now) why didn't you change it at 18?

Also, as an aside, I found your story of the other woman taking her husband's last name more than a little heartbreaking.

"It seems important, in my mind, that children in a family all share the same family name. Am I being old-fashioned??"

Yes, I would say so. My two sons have two different dads. Does that mean we are not all in the same family to you? Do I have to change all of our names to some new family name to be a real family? What old-fashioned system would work for a country in which more than half of kids live in blended families?

I didn't get a choice as to how the came up with my name when I was born, so I don't agree with people who say it is just my father's name. It has been my name my whole life. I think the argument that names are not identity would not be true to many people. Go to an adoption website and get in a conversation with people about how important given names are, and the controversy over changing names.

If someone is blase' about changing their first name or their last, it is a personal choice. Don't generalize your impersonal feelings towards your name on everyone. I doubt many people would agree that they would easily change their first name.

And finally, I find it hard to believe that the lashback women have gotten who have changed their names from feminists is worth complaint, but I am sorry if you have friends who treated you like that. I had my mother-in-law tell me over the phone that I was denying my son's paternity just by adding my name on to the end after his father's the day after I had given birth. I had my husband telling em that I tricked him maliciously to go along with it and knew I could get away with it because of the emotions after the birth. Telling personal stories about people being hurtful and playing victim might feel vindicative here, but let's remember who the majority is, OK?

Why is it that when men get married, there are so many things that just aren't supposed to change for them, but do for women? Similar to name changing in the static-male-status arena is, "I now pronounce you man and wife." I HATE that. I can't help but feel revolted when I hear that instead of, "husband and wife" because it seems indicative of women being no more than a wife once their married, like the act of marriage is only to bind the woman to the man.

I took my husband's name, after much much much much much discussion. I never thought I would, and am fond of my original name...but my husband came from a pretty broken home, and it was very important to him that we all have the same last night - build a new, less messed up, familial unit. Okay, so then we just had to pick whose name...he already had professional creds under his name, and I was just starting out.
I did take my original name as my middle name, and use it that way - I always write and say both names. So I guess its a hyphen sitch without the hyphen?
Anyway - I think this system stinks, and every solution to it is flawed - but what can we do but make the best choice for us at the time?

Correction: Some of my husband's fans are assholes, not all of them. In fact, many are very nice people :)

My wife informed me that she was actually a little nervous about broaching the subject when we were first making plans. This boggled my mind, as the idea of her taking my name just hadn't even crossed my mind. No thought was spared at all until she mentioned that she wanted to keep her name, at which point I said that I didn't care either way. She uses my last name when she does any acting or writing, but her own all the other times.

Her mother is married and divorced and re-married. She changed her name when she got married the first time, and kept his name when she got married the second. Her new husband doesn't care, and she likes her first husband's name better than her maiden name (nobody can spell her maiden name).

We had to decide on children's last names. We did toy with the idea of for a girl giving her my last name and my wife's last name as a middle name, and vise-versa for a boy. We ended up hyphenating, wife's name-my name. I was pushing for the reverse, but that was mostly for humour.

When some of my older male friends found out about my wife not taking my name, they were surprised. One of them even said that if his wife wasn't willing to take his name when they got married, he wouldn't have married her (still would have lived with/had kids with, but not married). Crazy.

Times are changing though. It may be as high as 81% that intend to change their names, but I'm sure it will get higher as the practice of keeping names becomes more firmly entrenched. Once people see enough couples for whom it isn't a problem, it'll pick up.

Re: children having the same last name--I don't think it has to be that way, but I think you'll get even more backlash for giving kids different names than for keeping their own. I actually think that wanting the kids to all have the same name is a good reason to go with hyphenation. My mom remarried and had a third child, my baby brother, when I was 15, and because he and I both have hyphenated names our names are different but still have an element--our mom's last name--in common, which I have to admit I like.

I like the idea of a couple being able to hyphenate their names easily so that they can be joining two families together. But frankly, I have no interest in marrying at all. But if two people are going to get married, they should have all the options open. No matter who does or doesn't wish to change their name.

"SamBarge- I have to ask, if your last name sucked (and believe me, I understand, I have never had anyone pronounce my name correctly- and hell, half the family doesn't since my great aunt is Southern and has been mispronouncing it for two generations, now) why didn't you change it at 18?"

I didn't do it right away because I really couldn't afford it. There were legal fees in Canada and Italy because I was a naturalized citizen. Still am, I guess. I was actually saving money to have it done when my spouse and I decided to tie the knot.

Also, I didn't like the idea of legally changing my name. I know some women do this when they get married but the idea of having a birth certificate with anything other than my birth name on it seems more than a little creepy to me.

But like I said, I wouldn't do it again. I wish I kind of had gone through with the legal name change because I would have used my mother's birth name (which women keep in Italy, by the way) and I really like her name.

Happily, I don't have a hard to pronounce first name. My sister's first name is Gigliola. I suppose since the horrendous Affleck/Lopez flick, Gigli, came out that more people would be able to pronounce it.

I know this subject has come up pretty recently, but it's an important discussion to continuously have. I have just two married friends, and they both changed their surnames, with seemingly no thought or discussion given to the issue. I was disappointed.

I have another friend who married at age 20 and changed her surname. She was divorced at 22 and it added more bureaucracy, time, and money to change her surname back to her own.

I always feel less alone in threads like this because, to me, keeping one's surname does not seem in any way radical. I am a bit surprised, however, at the amount of people who say 'when' they get married. I'm waiting for more radical feminists to speak up who don't believe in marriage!

Thanks for the thoughts, Hilary and Snappy Mackerel. I can see the problem desire for a unified family name would be when it comes to blended families. I have friends who have gone back and forth over the years as to which parent's name they use after a divorce.

On the other hand, I think names have powerful symbolic resonance (evidenced by many strong opinions on this thread!) and I do like the statement that a family name gives about the unified nature of a family unit. Family names have, historically, been a very important, indelible part of our identity. That's obviously changing (and in many ways this change is a good thing!) . . . but I don't know that we should throw the whole concept over because we don't like some problems with the system. It seems like there are ways to deal with the misogyny and blended family issues without doing away entirely with the concept of family names.

"We are no longer a patriarchal society," Walker said.

um - we most certainly ARE still a patriarchal society, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue.

thistle wrote:

I'm curious about what people who aren't married when they have kids name their kids, since it seems like in that situation the woman pretty certainly hasn't changed her name--does that change how much pressure there is to give the baby the father's last name, or does it create more pressure, to offset some kind of stereotype of illegitimacy?

I referred to this kind of situation in my first comment, but perhaps you didn't pick up on that. We can't combat the stereotype of "illegitimacy" if people continue to think of children born to parents not married to one another as "illegitimate." Are you aware that that means "unlawful"? Do you want someone to call you that?

My son is and has always been my lawful son, as well as a lawful human being, and he lawfully carries my lawful name. I'm picking on you, thistle, not because I think that you meant what you said - I'm quite certain that you didn't, in fact - but I want to point out, once again, the power of words. I can think of two other words/phrases, right off the top of my head, that are meant to insult a man based on an insult to his mother: "bastard" and "son of a bitch." Similarly, the priest at my church once explained in his sermon that when Jesus was called "son of Mary" by the people in his hometown, that was actually probably meant as an insult by casting doubt on his paternity. Here's my original post on that subject:

http://www.motherblogs.net/jessica/249/What+I+Learned+About+Mothers+At+Church+This+Sunday.html

In my case, I'm quite certain that, while my ex probably wanted my son to have his last name, neither he nor his family could much blame me for not wanting that after what they put me through. And I did simply put my foot down and say that my son would have my last name. I made it clear that there was no room for debate with me on this issue, so there wasn't.

However, as in many other points, I was lucky there. If I had been married, the hospital might have ignored my wishes or let my husband dictate the child's name while I was asleep. The court might have refused to require the father to pay support, even though he'd acknowledged paternity, without the child carrying his last name, as I mentioned in my first comment as well. And ultimately, if your husband refuses to change his name, you can't make him do it. I wanted to try to create a combined last name when my husband and I married, but he didn't. That's a great approach to use, as my parents did, to create a break in the patriarchal line, as some of the posters here have felt that keeping their (fathers') last names would have required them to do. We have to start somewhere!

"You can advocate for same-sex marriage as a married person just as strongly as if you remained unmarried."

Not only can you, but it makes the "same-sex marriage will erode opposite-sex marriage" argument die on conservatives' lips.

A few years ago, a poller for the Progressive Conservative party called the house while I was at work. They asked whether we'd be voting PC, and my husband said no. When they asked why not, he said, "My wife and I disagree with the Conservatives' stance against gay marriage."

He said that there was a long pause as the wheels turned in the poller's head. "I'm talking to a man... and he has a wife... but they approve of same-sex marriage? Oh-kay..."

I also kept my name when I married. I remember having this conversation with a girl (I really can't consider her a woman, she was like Monica Goodling testifying)who was engaged at the same time I was. She couldn't understand why I wasn't changing my name, kept insisting that taking on your husbands name was how you extended family (wtf does that mean?) and was all worried about what we were going to do about our kids. Another woman we worked with decided to change her name only when she and her husband adopted their first child, so that they could all have the same name.

Well, my 3 girls were born in South America where the custom is to have both mother and father's names, although the complicated part is that in Brazil it's mothersname fathersname and in the Spanish-speaking world it's fathersname mothersname. We had to do a little fighting so that our 2 daughters born in Paraguay could have the same name as their older sister born in Brazil. The rules are pretty rigid and we had to bring in dd#1's birth certificate to prove that her name was really like that. In the end they allowed us to keep the surname order, mostly because I'm a foreigner, I think.

I never even considered changing my name. It's my mother's name and the only link I had to her father whom I never knew. Now that my mom is remebering her childhood (blocked it out due to extensive, repeated sexual abuse by her father over the course of about 8 years) I'm trying to come to terms with having this name that I associate with this creature (can I even call him a man? a human?) who, if there is any justice, is rotting in one of the lower levels of hell. My mom didn't even change her name back when she divorced, even though her ex (my stepdad) is a raging alcoholic and most probably gay (which, of course, is not a problem unless you marry a woman and have 2 kids with her instead of just accepting who you are and loving yourself despite whatever fucked up morality your even more fucked up parents passed onto you.)

But now I feel like it's too late to change my name. My kids already have it as a part of theirs and even if I wanted to get away from it, here in Brazil I have to use my "maiden" name all the time. The fact that I only have one name is problem sometimes (as it is for my sil who was born in the US and only has her father's name.)

I can't wait to move back up north and see what kind of confusion comes from my girls' last names. Legally they have 2 unhyphenated last names. And the second one is pretty hard for a non-Spanish speakers to pronounce. They may end up wanting to only use my name in the US!

I think that the idea of giving female children the mother's last name and vice versa is absolutely terrible!
I am the mother to two boys. They are certainly not more their father's children than they are mine. I've said this before, but the day that my husband gives birth is the day that we can consider giving the child his last name.
Adoption is obviously different, but even still I wouldn't divide the kids between me and my husband like that.
I really find that naming strategy to be even more sexist than the patriarchal tradition that is up for discussion on this thread.

Ooh, one more thing, and that's it, I promise:

When we got married, we had the minister change some of the words in the ceremony:

"man and wife" to "husband and wife"

and

"You may kiss the bride" to "You may kiss one another."

(We also had them take out the part about marriage being intended for the procreation of children. We replaced it with the nurture of children, since I already had one.)

I also made a point of asking our DJ to announce us as "Mr. and Mrs." followed by both of our full, original names. That clued some people in anyway.

He got the order backwards, though. He said something along the lines of "Mr. and Mrs. [my name] and [his name]." Hee hee.

Someday we'll be Dr. and Mr. I'm looking forward to that. :)

I think having the choice to do what you want and not feel pressured one way or the other is what's important. None of us pick our own given name in the first place, and some of us obviously identify with what we've been handed more than others. I pretty much changed my first name as a teenager because I disliked the nickname my parents had given me. I also took my husband's last name because I liked it more than the one I had. So my entire name now is very different from the name I had as a child. But, that being the case, I still identify positively with my father's last name, just as I identify with my mother's last name, even though it was never officially mine (and my grandmothers' names as well, etc. etc.). I guess I see that less as selling out my identity than evolving into a new one that seemed to fit right for me. But I would never say that anyone should change their name simply for the traditional reasons, or because others expect it -- it should definitely be a personal choice that makes you feel good about who you have become, one way or the other.

Jessica, I used "stereotype of illegitimacy," I didn't call anyone illegitimate. I'm not sure how to refer to the stigma in question otherwise. As it happens, my parents weren't married when I was born, nor were my baby brother's parents married when he was born, nor are my baby niece's parents married now. I'm not unaware of stigma around this.

So I know that we queers mess up the language anyway- but what happens when two women (or two men) get married? I'm well aware that I'm living in the only state where it's currently recognized (if you're in Boston Thursday, please go to the ConCon to help protest the ban!) but we've nonetheless been gettin' hitched for years all over the place. It seems to me we might be more likely than straight women to keep our last names. Has anyone here ever made out a letter to "Mrs. and Mrs. Smith" (or Mr. and Mr. Jones, for that matter)?

I haven't given much thought to the hyphenation battle, but I'm not so sure I buy arguments that there's any inherent inequality just because one name comes before the other. Seems to me that most people would consider which combination sounds better and go with that. I'll admit that I like the notion of "The Smith Family" for purposes of addressing the Christmas cards, but I like my name too much to relegate it to maiden name status.

Can we perhaps avoid scathingly judgemental comments like [x] naming tradition is absolutely terrible? I think we can all agree that the system of women taking their husband's name by default is terrible, but after that there's a lot of variation in naming traditions and what works for one family isn't going to work for another. Names obviously hold a lot of power for people, but there's no reason to completely cut down another person's choice.

Also, this post inspired me to write out my thoughts in more detail on my blog here, if interested.

Wow. I am floored by just how patronizing some of you are being.

Women who take their husband's names are rationalizing being unwitting tools of the patriarchy and surrendering their identies? Are you kidding me?

Way to generalize, dismiss and undermine the opinions and feelings of many women. You don't find it at all hypocritical to call women weak and cowardly for making their own choices instead of following what they are "supposed to do" as a good feminist?

Hey Betty: I'll define my identity, Thanks. I don't really need your help.

I love/hate this issue.

Love it, because I could talk about it all day. Hate it, because it pretty much always manages to piss me off.

I have to agree that a part of me does kind of feel like the "better" choice is to keep your name. I try not to judge anyone, but I have to be honest: I always feel like "my name is hard to pronounce" or "I hate my father" are just excuses. If you don't like your name, why did you wait until you were married to change it? (Obviously there may be cases like SamBarge's where changing it really is just plain too hard until you're married -- in which case, perhaps making the name changing process easier in general should be a feminist issue?)

I really appreciated Betty's comment... I make tough decisions in my everyday life all the time that I think are better feminist decisions, but are harder/worse personal decisions. I almost never date because I have ridiculously high standards for men I spend time with ("high" here meaning that I Will Not Tolerate Sexism. PERIOD. Which, yeah, sadly, does not land me a ton of dates). I would like to date. I would like to have a boyfriend. I go out of my way to LIMIT my options because every time a woman like me accepts or rewards sexist or inappropriate behavior from a man (and if you're with a sexist man, I'm sorry, but that is what you're doing), the movement is stalled that much more. And frankly, I would like a little extra credit for the sacrifices I make. I give up the free drinks and the fun flirty attention. In some sense, I give up even HAVING a relationship because I will not accept an unfeminist relationship. So if that means that the women who accept less-than-equitable treatment so that they CAN be in relationship, don't have quite as high a "feminist" billing... I'm sorry, I just don't see how you're victims. We make our choices, and they are either feminist choices or unfeminist choices. It doesn't make you a bad person if you make an unfeminist choice, but quite honestly I do think it makes you a little weaker. Which is not BAD, it just is what it is.

FWIW, if I ever do wind up finding a guy who doesn't piss me off within an hour of meeting him, and continues not pissing me off long enough for us to become involved, I *might* hold off on getting married until after gay marriage is made legal in my state (which BETTER NOT take very long -- it's fucking CALIFORNIA). I definitely will not have an engagement ring, and I definitely will keep my name, and we will ADOPT our children if we choose to have any (I might -- MIGHT -- have one biological child, but only if he agrees that we will adopt at least two more, and they won't necessarily be our race, or from the United States, or infants at the time we adopt them).

Just from talking to my LIBERAL guy friends, I'm pretty well aware of the very high probability that these requirements mean I'll always be single. Sad.

Roni- the last giant argument I had on this blog was if women could choose sex work. Most people said they could not, because they grew up in a patriarchal society that took away a free choice, and since it is usually paying more than most other jobs you can get without a degree, it was not possible to choose it absent of the patriarchy.

I argued this was not true.

However, I see this as the same argument. Can a woman make this choice without being influenced by the patriarchy? You really think that women are socialized from diapers to do so? That no woman has rationalized their way into becoming a Mrs Hislastname?

Ok, I'll be completely honest and admit that I stopped reading comments when they started annoying me. Don't feminists have enough shit to deal with than barking at each other for what should be our own CHOICE?? (You know, that crazy word that we throw around but don't seem to be very good at extending or understanding when dealing with others ...)

That being said, one of my best friends faced this same issue a few years ago before she got married. Her now-husband had a hyphenated name because his own father died when he was young and he was adopted by his mother's second husband. Wanting to honor both men, he simply hyphenated the two names. However, NOT wanting to create some long-ass quadruple hyphenated fiasco of a name upon marriage, he simply offered to take her last name.

To make a long story short, they created their own new name and they BOTH changed it.

Have to say, I kinda dug it. :)

Honestly, the thought of changing my last name for any reason, even as a child, seemed ludicrious to me. I have a very unique last name (there are only 12 people left in the world with it, up from 11 when my cousin decided he no longer wanted his father's last name and changed his), and I am proud of it.

Got married, still have my last name. Wouldn't be surprised if come the time we have kids, my husband changes his last name to mine.

A prof of mine a few years ago gave a very nice reason to keep her last name: "I'm the one who worked for my degrees, so why should his last name be listed on them?"

Something tells me that some bandwidth could have been preserved by a binary poll question (Keep/kept your name? Take/took your husband's name?) in the sidebar.

My husband and I looked up and down our family trees for a meaningful last name to share, but didn't find one, so we both have our own names. I like the idea of sharing names, and we'll probably repeat the serach if and when we have kids, but I am not changing my name. I'm just used to it, not to mention the hassle. It's been almost a year and we still don't have our finances all in both our names, so I can't imagine the trouble of getting new diplomas issued etc.

Since I'm the only spouse who works outside the home and all our insurance/investments are in my name first, my husband often gets stuff addressed to "Hisfirst Mylast." He is alternately amused and indignant on behalf of all the artist/homemakers in the world.

I have given up remembering who has changed their names and just refer to my friends by their first names, or "The [Hisname-Hername] Family" when they have kids. Most of my female friends have kept their names but don't care what people call them socially, as long as it isn't "Mrs. His Name." Since I have so many friends who live together but don't plan on marrying anytime soon, if ever, this works just as well for them.

Re: same-sex name changing. I can't find the article right now, but California is currently trying to pass legislation that not only allows men and women equal ability to change last names on the marriage license, but also to give this option to same-sex couples registering as domestic partners.

I have a couple of friends who did the most interesting thing when they got married. The groom's dad was a schitzofrenic and thought he was a particular iconic rock star, and both groom and bride took the last name of that rock star when they got married. Now their daughter carries that last name as well.

For string bean jen:

I am NOT GETTING MARRIED. Dammit! I think it's a dumb sexist stupid institution and I don't want any part of it. It boggles my mind when women want to take their man's name. I just had this argument with a guy who said "well, it's tradition." As if that explains or justifies anything.

What makes me really mad is that I keep hearing about women whose men are trying to convince them to change their name. WTF? Pressuring your bride to be to take your name? That is not cool! A feminist friend of mine is getting married and he wants her to take his name-well, his name is awful, and hers is great. But, I bet a million dollars that she'll take his name anyways, because she "wants to make him happy." Bluuuurgh.

I don't like my last name, it's literally the most boring name ever. And, it comes from my abusive grandfather. But ya know? It's just a stupid name. And at least it's easier to spell/pronounce than my first name.

I just don't like all this PRESSURE that women undergo with all this marital crap. Change this, do this, be this.

I changed my last name as a minor: It's not that difficult. I do have a problem with hyphenating names, because when does it end? Only one more generation in, it becomes an exponential mess.

mk, my bad, I meant to add a link to this article as well, which is about a bill in CA that would make it easier for same-sex partners to change surnames.

wow. i think the key word here should be choice. because isn't that what most of this boils down to anyway? if an individual chooses to keep his/her name, that's okay. if the individual chooses to keep his/her given surname, or modify, hyphenate, chop it off, WHATEVER, that's okay too. as long as the individual in question is making that choice, and it's not hurting him/herself or anyone else, then how is that making him or her a bad feminist/person/jerkface? the decision should be respected as long as it's coming from a good place, a mon avis.

Re: naming children, a matrilinear naming system makes so much more sense to me than a patrilinear system. There may be disputes about paternity, but rarely does a dispute arise about a child's maternity, considering that the mother has been growing steadily larger for about nine months before ultimately giving birth.

Yes, I actively acknowledge that this isn't remotely helpful to same-sex couples. It's a personal decision I've made after lots of reflection about my own situation, not a macro-level proclaimation about The Way Things Should Be.

I'll be changing my name when I marry--to my mother's surname. I could do it before, but the paperwork is so much easier if you do it when you marry. Sucks, but that's the way it is, and I'm a busy woman. My boyfriend is leaning toward taking my new name, so kid naming won't be such an issue. But if he keeps his birth name, the kids are still getting my name, no hyphens.

I think hyphenation is attractive as a short-term solution to the dilemma of naming children, but not sustainable as a long-term one for reasons mentioned above.

Spouse & I decided to go with two last names without a hyphen for legal purposes. In all practicality we use our original last names. Our child uses both last names. Keeping it unhyphenated, while aesthetically more pleasing, has proven to be unpractical. People can't wrap their heads around the concept around us.

For those who worry about the multi-generational unwieldiness of hyphens, I suggest people carry one name forward to combine with one name of their spouses. In general I would assume the males carry forward their male name and the females carry forward their female name, but really people could (and should) choose whichever was best for their family. So when Smith-Lopez marries Stern-Jones, they could be Smith-Jones, Jones-Smith, Lopez-Stern, Stern-Lopez, etc. There are 8 combinations to choose from.

This wouldn't be for everyone, but it is what I will suggest to my kid(s).

I kind of like the idea of combining into a new name or making one up. However, we could not come up with anything we liked.

wow. i think the key word here should be choice. because isn't that what most of this boils down to anyway? if an individual chooses to keep his/her name, that's okay. if the individual chooses to change his/her given surname, or modify, hyphenate, chop it off, WHATEVER, that's okay too. as long as the individual in question is making that choice, and it's not hurting him/herself or anyone else, then how is that making him or her a bad feminist/person/jerkface? the decision should be respected as long as it's coming from a good place, a mon avis.

does anyone else see some striking similarities between this discussion and the leg shavng and high heel-wearing discussions?

one faction declares certain things (taking your husband's name, shaving your legs, or wearing high heels) to be evidence of the patriarchy, or misogyny, or setting women back, or keeping them "in their place."

the other faction claims that through feminism, they should have free CHOICE to do whatever the hell they want.

How can we resolve these issues??

Can a woman make this choice without being influenced by the patriarchy? You really think that women are socialized from diapers to do so? That no woman has rationalized their way into becoming a Mrs Hislastname?

Jenslovesponies- No, No and no

HOWEVER, there is a wide and deep chasm between arguing that ALL women are only changing their names to defer to the patriarchy and NO woman are doing it. I said it's ridiculous to claim all women who make that choice are just brainwashed and don't know know their own minds. That doesn't mean that none are.

It is a complete and utter load of crap to say "All women do X because of Y", and if they think differently they're just not smart/enlightened/conditioned enough to know my way is best. I don't like it when a conservative man says it and I don't like it when a "feminist" woman says it. I think Feminism has a lot better things to do than become the new tool for saying everyone should conform to the speaker's thinking, or be shamed.

As I've said before on a recent thread, I think naming IS important because it goes to identity, and the history of naming slaves and women with the master's or husband's name is the history of a patriarchal practice.

The issue of creating a family unit is important, but I do think that there are many ways of doing this, and successful melded families show that a uniform name is not essential to the process. And all of us who know siblings with the same name who abhor one another, might go further and say that a uniform name has nothing to do with creating a cohesive family.

Broken Paradigm - you pretty much sum it up as far as I'm concerned. And I also kinda resent people telling me it's not my father's name, it's my name: I'll decide how I feel about it, thanks - I appreciate other people in the same situation might feel differently. I didn't change it at 18, mostly because I had nothing compelling to change it to. I've toyed with the idea of using my mother's maiden name - she still has my father's name, because she wanted to have the same name as her kids even after my dad left. Who knows, maybe I will do that one day - it's still my grandfather's name but then since he was such a lovely man that doesn't bother me so much. I just haven't come across any solution that would solve it for me.

Nope, never getting married even though I live in Canada where gay marriage is legal. Like buggle, I think it's a patriarchal institution, and I wouldn't shed a tear if marriage, weddings, and the billion dollar wedding industry ceased to exist tomorrow.

One thing I haven't seen anyone comment on is the number of women who explain changing their name because their original surname was hard to pronounce (read: ethnic, non-Anglo). Does anyone else find that very sad? To change one's name as a step towards assimilation? For the record, I have an "ethnic name" that no one ever pronounces my last name correctly the first time.

Carly: Eschew posts that you know are going to turn into pointless, 200+ comment flame-fests informed only by subjective personal experience.

Hi Roni! I plugged your webcomic in the self-promotion section. I post as Ronfar in the Home on the Strange forums. Small world, isn't it?

On topic: I've seriously considered taking my wife's name when/if I marry someone. My last name is annoying because I always have to spell it for people. On the other hand, my first name + last name combination is unique enough that Googling my name only returns results related to me, so I suppose it kind of balances out.

Growing up I couldnt wait to get married just to change my last name because of the fact no one ever pronounces it correctly. As I got older, I now love my last name and the fact no one can pronounce (makes identifying telemarketers pretty easy). When or If I ever get married I most likely will not change my name and that is more for the sake of my daughter, who has my last name and there for wouldn't be the only one with a differing last name. So my one solution would be that any of my female children will take my last name, and any male children can have my husbands? And maybe the male children can have my surname as their middle name, and vice versa. Therefore all children share both their parent's last name. Any thoughts?

I don't understand; it's obviously a recurring problem, and we're all intelligent people here. We should be able to discuss it without resorting to "pointless, 200+ comment flame-fests informed only by subjective personal experience."...right?

*especially if we can talk about it abstractly, and not in terms of specific topics.

I just think it's incredibly interesting that the very things that some women consider symptoms of patriarchy are totally accepted by other women. And that shouldn't be ignored.

I just think it's incredibly interesting that the very things that some women consider symptoms of patriarchy are totally accepted by other women. And that shouldn't be ignored.

Just as it shouldn't be ignored, those who disagree shouldn't jump to moralize to the other side and tell them how wrong they are. These extreme differences should in fact be noted, but they denigrate into the flame-fests when too many people decide they know what's best for Feminism (with a capital F) and everyone on the otherside of the issue is a witless tool of the patriarchy.

Differences in opinion can be good things. Seeing all of the different view points (some made more eloquently than others) has given me a lot to think about in terms of what I want to do in the not-too-distant future, and I really value that and don't want to lose sight of that aspect.

Re. hyphenations of last names and generational issues (getting ludicrous), I'm pretty sure they handle it just fine in South America, where it's common practice. Mexico too.

I think when they combine, they tend to keep the father's name (which I don't think should be automatic, just outlining what I believe the practice to be... if somebody with more knowledge than me can correct or clarify, much appreciated).

I also appreciated Betty's comments. I'm the only married woman in my friend set to keep her name, and while my experience hasn't been tough or necessarily limiting, it's been LONELY.

Look, I wear makeup when I'm afraid people will think I'm ugly. I wear heels when I want people to think that I'm sexy. While I do this stuff and own it, I'd never, ever demand that someone applaud these choices as being feminist. They're not. So if you changed your name or plan to change your name, I'm not going to get all "oh a woman can be empowered by everything a woman does" on you, because just like some of the choices that I make, that one is a copout. Own it.

Moriath- AMEN!

I couldn't agree more- surrounding myself with viewpoints completely different than my own have contributed (hopefully) to my growth as a feminist. I don't always agree with everyone here or at Feministe, Pandagon, etc., but I'm glad they're there.

That being said, nothing frustrates me more than when we give the conservatives and anti-feminists more fuel for their lame little fires by attacking each other.

Want to keep your own name? Great.

Want to take your SO's name? Great.

I often fanatasize about changing my last name to Hugandkiss just to be a smart ass. :)

I think many people have not made judgmental comments about others. I really appreciate hearing what other people say about choices and experiences they have had. I learn and appreciate these conversations less when people overgeneralize and make sweeping angry statements.

(ack. I swear I had not read your posts before I mentioned makeup and high heels, Carly. Apparently you're not the only one to see parallels!)

I'm not trying to say there's anything wrong with diverse opinions...

what I'm trying to get at is this:

in the name changing/not name changing debate, as in many others, two sides of the argument are basically taking completely opposite stances:

One group says name-changing (or leg/face-shaving, or high heels, or whatever) is based in patriarchy and harmful to women.

One group says either it's not or, even if it is, there's a good reason to do it anyway.

Can everyone be right?

"I especially abhor the whole "Mr. and Mrs. Husband's-last-name" deal. Does getting married mean losing your name altogether? " -Cosmic

I just had to quote this because I remember once my mother got a letter from my high school addressed to "Mrs. [husband's name]". I was about 13 at the time. She immediately called the school and said "Excuse me, I have my OWN NAME. I am not an appendage of my husband."

My mom kicks ass:)

What I wish is that our language had a good "mother of blah/father of blah" option, like Arabic languages.

If someone mistakes my name for my husband's (or, as happened two days ago, mistakes my husband's name for mine -- I had filled out the form and they just assumed he would have the same last name as me, so they gave him mine), and the context is that we're in a situation dealing with him and me, I correct them, and it's done, life goes on. But my kids' school is *always* getting my name wrong, as is their doctor... because they only know me through my children, all of whom have their father's name. (This is because a. the older two are not biologically mine b. I can't legally adopt them because their biological mother has not terminated her parental rights c. his name is just much cooler than mine. I wouldn't *change* mine to his... my name is my name regardless of how cool his is... but I'm not going to make kids take a boring name when a cool name is available.) And they don't have any way to record my name so they will remember it, so I just put up with it, or say "It's Ms Rogers, actually, but yes, I'm their mom."

Kids just call me Miss Alara or Mykidsname's Mom, but adults who know me through my kids need something more formal. I wish the doctor's office could just call me Mykidsname's Mom. Calling me Mrs. Myhusbandsname expresses my relationship to my husband (incorrectly), and they don't know my relationship to my husband; what's relevant to them is my relationship to the child, so I wish we had a term we could just use that way.

Carly, I think what's upsetting me is there seems to be the implication that the individual woman is not capable of making an informed decision on her own. Why do I need someone to tell me whether it's "okay" for me change my name, wear makeup, use birth control, or anything else? I trust that the vast majority of adult women can make these decisions based on their individual experiences and circumstances. It is troubling to me that so many women on a feminist board appear to feel that we cannot trust individual women to make the correct decision for their circumstance, especially when it comes to something so personal as the decision to change or not change one's name.

Alright, I will conceed that women can make informed decisions on their last names despite a patriarchy-saturated culture, but everyone else has to agree that women can make the decision to become porn stars in that same culture.

As a young woman engaged to be married next year, I have been wrestling with the issue of last names for a while. Now, my parents gave me a hyphenated last name, and I've always been proud of that fact. But, as many people note, passing on hyphenated names through several generations can become quite cumbersome. However, I believe there is a solution to this problem, and I'm really surprised that I haven't found anyone talking about it on the discussion boards I've looked at.
Here's what I propose: the couple to be married joins their last names by hyphenating them, and if one or both of them already have hyphenated names, the new last name should be made up of the woman's mother's part of her last name and the man's father's part of his last name. For example, upon marrying, Jane Smith-Ross (daughter of John Smith and Joy Ross) and Bob Jones-Peterson (son of Bill Jones and Barb Peterson) would become Jane and Bob Jones-Ross (or Ross-Jones). The children could carry on this same name and tradition of naming easily, and all generations would have at most a two-part hyphenated last name.
If anyone objects to the gender-based choosing of the parts of the surname, then each person could just choose which half of their hyphenated birth name they would rather incorporate as part of their hyphenated married name.
I think this is a great option for 2nd gen hyphenates. Now I just have to convince my fiancé.

I don't think the issue here is that women "can't" make an informed decision to do this because it's saturated with patriarchy. As Salamander noted, most of us who've had our consciousnesses raised nonetheless make decisions that play into the hands of the patriarchy. This isn't because we're tools, or because we're ignorant, or because we're uninformed, it's because we live in the real world. When I wear makeup, I'm aware of the fact that it is NOT the best, most feminist choice. I'm also aware of the fact that I'm nonetheless choosing it, because it's just EASIER to make the patriarchal choice, and dammit, sometimes a girl needs a break. Being a feminist is HARD FUCKING WORK.

But for us to pretend that EVERY decision a woman makes is necessarily empowering does us all a disservice. There are good and bad decisions from a feminist perspective. We can't tiptoe around this fact or we'll never get anywhere. Challenging the patriarchy is a good feminist decision. Playing into the patriarchy's hands is a bad feminist decision. It really is as plain and simple as that.

We all make bad decisions. That doesn't mean we're bad people. It doesn't mean we have to turn in our feminist cards. It isn't a reason to get worked up and defensive. What it does mean, however, is that we don't get to defend THAT PARTICULAR DECISION as being feminist. There is no such thing as a perfect feminist, and why should we expect that feminists would be any more perfect that anyone else?

So basically: you want to take your husband's name, fine, go for it, we will never try to tell you you CAN'T do it because it's a free country. But don't pretend it's a FEMINIST decision because it isn't. Period.

::prepares to be flamed::

THANK YOU LAW FAIRY. Great, great comment.

Whoops, sorry, Salamanda.

That'll teach me to skim :0)

Oh my gosh, I'm an idiot.

Sorry, I think I was referring to snappy mackerel's comment.

I'll just stop talking now.

Agreed, The Law Fairy. That's what I tried to say, but you do it better!

snappy mackerel--absolutely. "A choice made by a feminist" does not always equate to "A feminist choice." There's nothing to gain in trying to make name-changing women feel shamed about their decision. Neither is there any point in trying to pretend that when a woman changes her last name to that of her husband that she is actively advancing feminism--or even that her decision is value-neutral.

BTW snappy mackerel, do you use this screenname elsewhere? I think I know you from ADL.

TLF, from that perspective the majority of coices I've made are bad feminist choices. Should I dedicate myself to living a lifestyle which makes me miserable because that would make me a good feminist, or should I give up on feminism entirely? It seems like there must be some sort of middle ground where I don't need to constantly apologize for changing my name, shaving my legs, working in the humanities, eating ice cream when I'm sad, getting pregnant, occasionally wearing makeup, high heels and skirts, not going to bars alone, doing most of the cooking, getting married, moving across the country with my husband, wearinng a bra, and so on almost ad infinitum. Do I really need to feel guilty for all of this?

I'm not angry or defensive--I'm just wondering if this is really what feminism looks like. Because I thought it looked like women making choices for ourselves and not letting other people tell them what we should be doing with our lives. Just because the patriarchy endorses something doesn't mean it's automatically and inherently a bad thing.

I get that you're saying that making bad decisions doesn't make us bad people--but it sounds like you're saying that making those decisions may make us bad feminists. Am I misunderstanding you?

Also, I really don't consider any of those choices I listed above as "bad decisions."

Hmm, don't know about y'all and I hope I'm not about to jinx this, but I'm actually enjoying this conversation- don't agree with it all but no flames yet ....

TLF, I immediately disagreed with you- then thought better of it and I *think* I'm understanding your point. I just want to support both women who choose to change their names AND those who don't- no matter what their reasons are or which road they choose.

Don't forget that the NR told women that if they wern't afraid of feminism that they would be after reading your book. I honesty think that this law is a great idea becuase married couples should hyphenate their names to signify unity. Leave it to one of the most radical rags in the country to call you a radical..

I wonder why we need to ask whether it is a feminine decision to change a name. I figure everything a woman wants to do , of her free will( taking Jessica's line from the Colbert Report) is feminine and just.

Change your last name if you like, or do nt, its a free decision and it is feminist if if it is free. If "expected" if forced, it is not, hyphens or commas or semicolons( on a lighter note is one allowed to use semicolons on one's last name...)or even question marks- whatever works

wealhtheow, believe me, I understand and I feel your pain. As I said, being a feminist is fucking HARD.

I'm not trying to tell anyone to feel guilty or apologize for everything. If I were, I'd have a ton of apologizing to do, considering I'm constantly dieting, I like looking pretty, I wear makeup, I wax my legs, etc., etc., etc. And I think there are definitely varying degrees of patriarchal/feminist decisions. Something like shaving/waxing, for instance, seems to me to be less of a patriarchal decision than, say, constantly believing yourself to be 15 pounds overweight when you're actually perfectly healthy (I use these as examples because I'm "guilty" of both).

But, sadly, yeah. Being a feminist is hard. Sometimes even a little miserable. It's like they say: ignorance is bliss. I mean, obviously it's easier -- superficially happier, even -- to live in this world and kind of ignore the patriarchal structures that surround us. You'll certainly be more popular.

And of course I'm not saying that as feminists we "should" be living perfect feminist lives. We're human, and it's only natural to want to be happy. We only have one life, after all.

And I'm not even saying these things are *inherently* bad -- certainly finding a committed relationship with someone you love and having a child is not BAD. BUT part of being a feminist, and part of having your consciousness raised, is being AWARE of the implications of your actions. What does your relationship look like? Is it conventional, or does it challenge patriarchal assumptions? At any rate, I wouldn't say "bad feminist," I would say "human feminist." Which, really, who DOESN'T want to be a human feminist?

As for what feminism means, I think what you describe is feminism's GOAL. The problem is, we don't live in a post-gender utopia. We live in a world where the patriarchy is still very real and very alive and VERY powerful. And because of that, our decisions DO at least on some level either challenge the patriarchy, or support it (with exceptions of course -- I'm sure there are SOME neutral actions, like sleeping perhaps). I don't believe in LIMITING women's choices, but at the same time I don't think it's responsible of us to equally endorse ALL choices, just because they are made by women. To use an extreme example, we don't support Ann Coulter's homophobia and bigotry, just because it comes from a woman. Similarly, I don't think feminism is about supporting/endorsing ALL choices just because they're made by women, but rather about working toward a world in which the personal choices a woman makes are not questioned *because of her sex*. This post and the comments following it make it pretty clear we're not there yet... a woman's choice to keep her name is often questioned, STILL, because of her sex. So bearing in mind that feminism has not yet achieved its goal, it is in some sense up to us to decide how actively we want to try to achieve those goals. Unfortunately, yeah, that does mean it's a choice between the easy choices and the hard ones.

I don't know if that helps at all, but those are my thoughts for what they're worth.

Doug S.: Hi,nice to see you. Thanks for the plug!

Law Fairy: I don't think anyone has been pushing taking their husband's name as empowering or a choice that is a blow for feminism. Many of the comments I've seen, and made, were that it was a personal choice which does not automatically mean it was easier and we were tired of fighting. Personally, I balk at "tradition" and anyone that tells me I should adhere to it can go hang. I didn't make it for feminism, or the patriarchy I made it for me and I doubt I'm the only one.

I will grant that we could be coming at this from different directions. You seem to be defining the world as either playing into the patriarchy or deliberately bucking it for feminism, despite your personal preferences. I think there's room in between.

Wealhtheow:

Just because the patriarchy endorses something doesn't mean it's automatically and inherently a bad thing.

No, it's not. But it's automatically something you should be mindful of and think about before you do.

81% of women who marry change their names? I'll bet less than 5% of men who marry change theirs. When you see numbers like this, it means a lot of women are doing something they are not really thinking about, just because it's what's done. If you have thought about your decision and it's what was best for you, then there's no need to feel guilty... but it's not a "feminist" choice. This is not to say it's a bad choice, but it doesn't buck patriarchy. It's not part of the fight. There's nothing wrong with that -- not every damn thing you do has to be part of the fight. And you're not really hurting anyone -- at least, as long as you avoid letting your example be used to pressure other people, a la "Your sister changed her name, why don't you?"

You don't need to feel ashamed for anything you do that harms no one, if you've thought about it and decided that it's what's best for you. You should feel slightly ashamed of anything you did without thinking, just because "that's what people do", because when you do things without thinking, that's when you are a tool of patriarchy. If changing your name and moving across the country to be with your husband was right for you, no one has the right to tell you it was wrong... but if it was wrong for you and you did it anyway because Women Should Sacrifice For Love, then you did something dumb and should admit that to yourself.

BTW, I'm failing to see why "not going to bars alone" is supposed to violate feminist orthodoxy. Are there actually feminists arguing that women must go to bars alone? I mean, I know a lot of men who won't go to restaurants or movies alone, let alone bars. Personally, I don't go to bars at all... I'm a teetotaller so there's no point.

Hey, KMG. That's me. I use this handle pretty much everywhere.

I guess what isn't coming across is that as a non-name-changer, I don't want changers to feel guilty. As someone who makes daily compromises (see makeup/heels, above), I assume everyone else makes them too, for their own reasons. What I wish more women would do, though, is stop insisting that their choice to change is somehow a feminist one, or that it could not be avoided because their guy is supersensitive or an only child or traditional, or because they had a long/ethnic/embarrassing birth name, or because they hated their dad, etc. etc. etc. It's the rationalizing that drives me up the walls.

Law Fairy,

I am completely in awe of how eloquent you are. The reason I wanted to make the discussion a little more broad is because next semester I'll be heading up the feminist club on my campus (a campus hat also has a NeW chapter to constantly annoy us) as well as finishing up my undergrad degree in women and gender studies, and the most interesting thing (to me) about both these things, and feminism in general, is the way feminists themselves interact with one another, and how they address issues like the name-changing, the diet/excersize/makeup/shaving body image issues, etc.

That being said, I completely agree with what you've posted. I think it's an incredibly difficult thing to say, and you've said it really well, without emphasizing any sort of alienation or hurtfulness. So, thanks. And thanks for everyone else's input as well!

Okay, TLF, I definitely see your point. I do try to consider the feminist implications of my choices. I'd love to stay at home with this kid I'm gestating, and while part of me feels that that's a "bad" feminist choice because of the whole "women's rights in the workplace" issue, part of me feels that it's a "good" feminist decision because at our income level, I don't trust any of the daycare options available to me not to reinforce gender stereotypes more than I'm comfortable with. So I don't see it as a black-and-white choice, and I think that a LOT of the choices we make are similarly complicated.

I will concede that not changing one's name does more to advance feminist issues than changing one's name (which honestly doesn't advance the feminist agenda at all, but rather advances my "not having to call the bank to correct the spelling of my name AGAIN" agenda). I don't regret changing my name, and as I stated in my first post, we're passing my mother's name onto the kid if it's a girl, thus continuing the matrilineal naming tradition my mother and her sister started. I suppose that a stronger feminist decision would be to also give my son this name, but I'm not prepared to buck convention enough to saddle my son with "May" as a middle name.

Also--dude, not only does my husband volunteer at Planned Parenthood outreach events with me, he does about 90% of the housework. On a good week. On a bad week, he's doing 100%. So yeah, I'd say that qualifies as "challenging patriarchal assumptions," wouldn't you? :)

I know a guy from shul who changed his name when he got married: his father abandoned his mother, brother and he when he was a wee one, so he felt no connection to his father's last name. So, when he got married, he and his wife decided to pick a new name for themselves.

The State of Florida evidently had huge problems with this -- it was able to deal with a woman changing her last name upon marriage, but not a man.

The claim that it's "easier" is a crock, and thanks for spelling that out. I have not used my husband's name ever; my daughter has my last name and my son has my husband's. No one (including their schools; including our employers; including our families and friends) has ever been even the slightest bit confused about whether or not we're a family.

The system of pressuring a woman to take her husbands' names is patriarchal and sexist, whether practiced by men or by women.

The system of a woman choosing of her own free will to take her husband's name is not patriarchal, nor sexist.

That leaves us with two fairly interesting questions:

1) Should women subsume their own naming interests to the goals of changing society? I.e. should a woman who wants to take her husband's name refrain from doing so, in the hopes of reducing the occurrence of pressuring other women?

2) Does a woman who "wants" to take her husband's name "really" want it, and not just want it because of the evil patriarchy's mindbending qualities?

I tend to accept women's individual choices, so I would say "no" and "yes." But it seems some here would disagree. It would be helpful to get some clarification I think.

Definitely, wealhtheow :) I think we're in total agreement.

AlaraJRogers:

My mom has instilled in me the idea that Good Girls Do Not Go To Bars Alone (Or Really At All)--a idea of which I've always been vaguely suspicious, because it seems to me that a woman should be able to go anywhere she wants with or without whomever she wants. It's a notion which has always struck me as very unfeminist. Unfortunately, at almost 29, I've never managed to go to a bar by myself, because I keep hearing my mother's voice saying "I'm so disappointed that any daughter of mine would do such want to do such a trashy thing like going to a bar alone." Also, I don't really like bars, so the motivation would be strictly to say that I've done it, not because I'm dying to go to any particular bar. But I've always felt like if I was a braver feminist I'd not let my mom's guilt-trip dictate my actions. The worst part? My mom would be laughing if she read this and would tell me to go to a damn bar by myself if I felt that strongly about it.

And yeah, I have made some dumb choices that were not feminist choices. But none of the ones I listed in my previous post count.

According to the vet's office, my dog's last name automatically changed to my mother's maiden name when she changed her name back after getting divorced. Now that was easy!

As for me, if I ever get married, I'm keeping my last name. It's hard to pronounce, so it comes in handy when telemarketers call me. Anyone who can't pronounce my name gets hung up on.

The question that I would ask Sailorman is WHY, outside of a patriarchal ideal and social pressure, would a woman want to change her name?

Ooh, yay Oregon!

I'm coming into this way late...wow, that's a ton of comments. Not very hard to see where I stand on the issue of keeping your name after marriage given my username on here, though. ;) (If it's not obvious to you, look up the Lucy Stone League immediately)

LawFairy said way upthread: Just from talking to my LIBERAL guy friends, I'm pretty well aware of the very high probability that these requirements mean I'll always be single. Sad.
I have the same requirements. I only know one other guy aside from my husband who fulfills all of those, and he's married and lives in Canada. He was pretty disappointed when his wife wanted to change her name and didn't want him to change his. Oh, the only requirement I have that is different from yours is I do have an engagement ring...but it is unisex and eco-friendly and he has a matching one. :) And we're lucky enough to live in a country where gay marriage is already legal (well, he was born here, I just invaded).

I agree with whoever said that a poll about what everyone did would probably have saved a lot of bandwidth! I also disagree with whoever said that giving the female children the mother's name and the male children the father's name was a bad idea. I really don't think the kids would see it as being divided between their parents, especially if the other parents' name is given as a middle. Most kids don't see themselves as belonging only to their dad if they get his name and their mom has her original family name or a hyphenated one...or if they do it's certainly news to me.

TLF--I'm so glad I can still call myself a feminist! :)

On a more serious note, I wonder if this is part of the reason why we see so many women reluctant to call themselves feminists. Is it because in addition to the fear of being seen as a man-hating Nazi lesbian with a vagina dentata who wants to kill all baybees, they're afraid of having to make hard choices, and of having to rack up a certain number of points with those choices before they can legimately call themselves feminists? At what point does a woman who makes all her choices in line with the patriarchy cease to actually be a feminist? Or does she? My mom has always led a fairly gender-stereotyped life, but she raised me to be a feminist and an activist--and she certainly considers herself a feminist.

Women aren't limited to choosing between their partner's or their father's name. We BOTH changed our names to a completely new one. No hyphens, no getting upset about tradition or whose name was more important. It was easy. We chose a name that meant something to us both - he as a writer and me as an artisan. It seemed to us like the only logical choice - for us.

Ugh. Whatever.

The women who are being defensive about changing your names -- why are you defensive? Is it because the number 1 reason that you change is because you are a woman? What part of that isn't sexist?

My boyfriend's last name is VERY cool and mine is often mispronounced. I'm still keeping mine, no matter what. I'd consider hyphenation, but only if he does it, too, and only if that's what the kids get.

Wealhtheow, I feel your pain. It might help if we move away from the "good versus bad" dichotomy. I don't like those words very much because they're overly simplistic and don't do justice to the context women are forced to operate in.

"Choice" (respecting other women's choices, fighting for choice) is an important part of feminism, but it is not the only part of feminism. Here is where, I think, the second wave and the third wave sometimes crash up against one another (forgive the pun) and there are misunderstandings and disagreements. Another important part of feminism is recognizing that *the personal is political* (which includes personal choices having broader consequences, as well as broader antecedents). Acts are not politically neutral, no matter how much of a personal "choice" they seem to be. That is to say, because women do NOT enjoy the same power and privilege as men in our culture / society (although perhaps we do in our dyadic relationships, I hope), power discrepancies shape (read: CONSTRICT) our range of choices, and our choices in turn impact our culture's power dynamics (sometimes perpetuating them, sometimes amplifying them, sometimes challenging them or attempting to subvert them).

I make many of the same decisions you cite every day. Neither of us are bad feminists. They are not "bad decisions." Often, they are the best or most adaptive decision available under the very, very imperfect circumstances under which women live. Sometimes, they are fully enjoyable decisions that feel personally satisfying. The key is that I (and we) also don't deceive myself (ourselves) into thinking that the decisions are politically neutral...that making those decisions have no consequences, for ourselves, for women in general, or for the larger culture. One such consequence might be reinforcing the status quo, whether in terms of gender stereotypes (e.g. women should do the cooking / childraising, women like shopping, women need to wear makeup to be presentable, etc.) or power discrepancies (and having the default last name / family name be the man's name IS an example of a power discrepancy).

You don't have to apologize for those decisions. It is VERY HARD, if not impossible, to avoid engaging in some of those things. (And some of those behaviors, like the safety-related ones, would be UNWISE to avoid.) We just can't lose track of the bigger picture. We don't have to change everything we do, it's important just to be aware of 1) how we got in the position of making said "choice" and 2) what the implications of said "choice" are.

Sorry that was so longwinded and preachy. I didn't intend it to be.

Sailorman,

I think it's a little more complicated than "Should women subsume their own naming interests to the goals of changing society?" It's not about the act, it's about the result.

For example, do I WANT to shave my legs? No way, it's a pain in the ass and it's a waste of money. Do I WANT to appear attractive to friends, family, other students in my classes, other strangers? Of course. So then the question is, which "want" supercedes the other: my want to be attractive to society or my want to NOT buy into a beauty standard of hairlessness?

So really, every choice like that (that = name-changing) means you have to give up one want in exchange for another. it's not like feminists are trying to steal a lady's happiness by suggesting she NOT take her husbands name as she wants to, so long as one of her other "wants" is furthering the goals of feminism.

And thank you, Emily, for taking this exactly to this place I was hoping we didn't go.

You such a better feminist than me. Congrats!

Ok some of this might be a rehash of Charity’s post because I haven’t read hers yet:

“TLF, from that perspective the majority of coices I've made are bad feminist choices. Should I dedicate myself to living a lifestyle which makes me miserable because that would make me a good feminist, or should I give up on feminism entirely?�

Wealhtheow, I don’t know where you got the idea that TLF wants you to apologize for doing those things (and how does getting pregnant belong on that list??!! Or studying humanities?), just that those decisions are not feminist decisions, i.e. that they play into the hands of patriarchy. You can still be a feminist and make choices that are not feminist, like TLF said “There is no such thing as a perfect feminist�. There are lots of things most of us feminists do to get by in a patriarchal society, I shave my legs (most of the time), I wear makeup (sometimes), I have fooled around with sexist assholes (just because I thought they were hot or worse just because they were available). There are some of those things that I actually enjoy doing, like dressing up and wearing makeup every once in a while, and other things that I hate doing like shaving ( I have tried being unshaved a couple of times and I just couldn’t stand it after 6 weeks). After all I grew up in this sexist world and I have internalized many of its values. But I don’t try to pretend it is empowering. I don’t think there is any point in agonizing over these things, just recognizing them for what they are. There are plenty other decisions I’ve made in my life that are feminist decisions.

“Because I thought it looked like women making choices for ourselves and not letting other people tell them what we should be doing with our lives.� See, yes, but I don’t decide out of the blue to shave my legs, or take my husband’s last name or whatever; I do those things because patriarchy told me to, in subtle or not so subtle ways. Nobody is telling anyone here what to do with their life. TLF said it best: “So basically: you want to take your husband's name, fine, go for it, we will never try to tell you CAN'T do it because it's a free country. But don't pretend it's a FEMINIST decision because it isn't. Period.� Yes, you are somewhat free to make some choices, but not all choices are equal. Some choices reinforce the status quo and some choices challenge it. My choice to shave my legs is not equal in value to another girl’s choice not to.

Cara: Why would a woman want to change her name?

I dunno. As a sign of leaving the old life behind? As a sign of commonality with one's partner? As a way of dissing her parents, or trying to make her spouse love her better, or....? Could be anything.

The reasons (absent patriarchy) that a woman OR A MAN would change their name to match their partner's name aren't necessarily that far off from the reasons they would get married. Or do a lot of other things. I mean, why would someone want to lock themselves into a legally binding monogamous debt-sharing relationship that's expensive and difficult to end? Viewed in that context names aren't as big a deal.

That's sarcasm... but I think it's too easy to just deny agency to any woman who happens to choose her husband's name. Maybe it's accurate, but IMO it needs more justification.

Cara:

I'm sure that the patriarchy did play a part in my decision to change my name. I did want the same last name as my husband, and since I have a brother and he is the last male in his family, we decided to take his name to have a chance to pass on his family name, which is important to him. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't a part of the decision, and I'm not pretending that's a feminist decision.

But to be perfectly honest, the larger part of my decision was the desire to never to have to correct the spelling of my name at the doctor's office, pharmacy, bank, or any other offical forms. I was getting tired of that, and if I hadn't been getting ready to get married when I was 22, I probably would have considered changing my name to my mom's maiden name.

I'm not sure, TLF; I find your comments extremely well thought-out, but something about them is getting to me. If the goal is to create a society where women's choices are not judged because of their gender, we should assess how "feminist" an action is not on the final outcome (in this case: keep your name, change to his name, he takes your name, hyphenation, etc), but on how that decision was reached. I would say that a woman keeping her name has made a feminist decision if she and her husband have made that decision in a manner consistent with feminist values. If you take what you're saying about naming choices to another level -- like reproductive choice -- things get pretty sticky. Imagine a situation in which a single woman finds herself pregnant, perhaps she can afford an abortion even while raising a child would be a huge hardship. She is a feminist, fully aware of and supportive of reproductive rights, and considers it a viable option, having no moral objection. But she chooses carry the pregnancy to term and raise the child. Would we say that her decision is less feminist than if she had had an abortion? I don't think so.

The idea of weighing what feminist ideals would think of a decision, and using that to influence the decision, seems to defeat the point.

So really, every choice like that (that = name-changing) means you have to give up one want in exchange for another. it's not like feminists are trying to steal a lady's happiness by suggesting she NOT take her husbands name as she wants to, so long as one of her other "wants" is furthering the goals of feminism.

Posted by: carly
Carly,

Sorry I wasn't clear. I wasn't going down the "feminists steal happiness" road, i was just trying to distinguish between the "no real agency" anti-switch argument, and the "bad for other women and for feminism" anti-switch argument. They often get conflated, and I think they're quite different.

I didn't deny agency, Sailorma, I asked the question. As someone who did not change her name and has never wanted to, I don't know why a woman would want to, outside of a patriarchal ideal and social pressure. Your answers make sense, until we look at the fact that 81% of women who get married change their names and only a tiny fraction of men do. We can't just ignore that and pretend that these choices are made inside of a vacuum.

I'm sure that most of the women here, who are assuming to be feminists and are professing themselves to be feminists, thought through their decision to change their names. I don't necessarily LIKE that decision but who the hell gives a fuck what I do and don't like? Only a very small handful of people, so that's a moot point.

The fact is that most women aren't feminists. And I'm willing to wager that most women who change their names hardly even think about it. They just do it because it's what their mother did and what their sister did and what every woman they've ever known has done. You seem to be implying that every woman does make a thoughtful decision on this matter, whereas I believe quite the opposite from my personal life experience (though please, if anyone has a study that will refute that belief, I'd love to see it).

Oops! I meant to say "who WE are assuming to be feminists" . . . I in no way meant to imply that someone here was claiming to be a feminist when she wasn't.

Part of me can't help but wonder if some of the people so staunchly in favor of keeping their names are also the people with really great, snappy names. Kind of like in the menstruation-choice discussion a few weeks back, it often seemed like those in favor of menstruating were not the ones with debilitating cramps, etc. Some people's names just really suck, period. If I like my husband's name better, and I've yet to change my name on my own, why shouldn't I take it? I thought feminism was supposed to equal *more* varied choices for women, not dualistic, opposing choices where on one hand you're a feminist and on the other hand, you're not. I thought we were generally against dualism and polarization as feminists?

Sojourner, I don't think anyone here is arguing that changing one's name is empowering. I'm just saying I don't think it is automatically an antifeminist decision.

Okay, the getting pregnant part may have been a little bit inflamatory (although I know plenty of people who do conisder it a woman's duty to get pregnant simply because she has a uterus and a wedding ring on her finger). But working in the humanities? Take a look at the number of women working in the humanities and the number of women working in the sciences. Do you really think that's not a choice that isn't heavily influenced by the patriarchy? I wanted to be a biologist, but wound up giving up on that dream because I was so awful in math. It was so painful for me to struggle through algebra that I made the decision to pursue another field. I don't regret that decision, and I certainly own it. No one said "Kid, you're a girl and girls suck at math so go be an editor instead." I certainly never asked for extra help, and if I hadn't sought any excuse not to do my math homework I bet it would have been less painful. But I do wonder what choice I would have made had my math teachers invested as much time with me as they did with some of the male students in my classes.

Salamanda: Because I believe something strongly, now you're going to shame me into shutting up? Is that the idea?

I do things that are anti-feminist. I believe others on this thread have talked about makeup or shaving; I'm not making those decisions in a vacuum.

I'm conscious of it, though, and I don't walk around telling people that I am making this decision DESPITE society's expectation that this is what I ought to do.

When I got married, I changed my middle name to my maiden name and use both professionally (a la Hillary Rodham Clinton). It is really difficult to get people to use both names, though, and actually I found the creeping loss of my maiden name to be sort of traumatic.

When I was in college, I read Freud's Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis and in the section on Freudian slips, one of his examples is a woman who keeps introducing herself with her maiden name after marriage. He argues that she didn't really want to get married. Overlooking, at least for the moment, the sexism of Freud's analysis (which is totally objectionable, and doesn't even consider the trauma the woman could have been experiencing over her loss of identity), every time I kept insisting on the use of my maiden name (which come to think of it is a really sexist term in and of itself), I would remember the Freud and then feel sort of doubly bad about the entire situation.

But anyhow, back to the original point, the marriage certificate in Montana didn't have an automatic option to do what I did, and it took some haggling at the courthouse. It then complicated matters when I changed my passport, etc., but that process, which is incredibly annoying, is really only set up to change the woman's last name and nothing else.

So I like the debate both because I thikn it will normalize not changing one's name at all, or hyphenating, or trying to do what I did, or getting men to change, etc. and because it might make the process easier.

Cara, I don't think we disagree. If I seem to be implying that all (or even most--or even "lots and lots") of women who change do it for any reason other than pressure, that's a communication error on my part.

But since the goal is to help the pressured folks reject said pressure without also pissing off the non-pressured folks who happened to change their names, it's important to realize how the pressure argument comes off: as an attack on agency.

If everyone with "icky" last names takes the easier last name of their spouse, won't we end up with fewer really cool last names? :( I like the name I kept not only because it's my mom's name and my sisters' name and so forth, but because maybe twenty people in this country seem to have it, and no one can pronounce it.

"The fact is most women aren't feminists."

Cara, why do you say this? I have a tendency to be kind of naive, and I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be bitchy. Is it because most women don't self-identify as feminists? Or is it because of the choices they make? I've always assumed the vast majority of women are feminist. What makes one a feminist?

Emily, nope- no desire to shame anyone into anything. Infact, if anyone is doing the shaming, it's you. Comments like yours make me think that I'm not a feminist because I've thought about changing my name, should I ever get married.

People who are so adamant that the name-changers are wrong and not "real feminists' are JUST as bad as the conservatives who tell us we must change our names because it's tradition, easier, etc.

My point is that it's MY choice and YOU don't get to tell me that somehow, I'm less of a feminist for changing my name.

I like Vicki Walkers legislation, and I don't consider it just a feminist position. I got married in Japan, so I actually have my wife's last name in that country (my choice), but in America she has my last name (her choice). The point is they were our choices, and we did what we wanted to do. Last name after marriage/children's name issues should be a personal choice matter, and I am glad that Vicki Walker is trying to make that available to couples who want to get married in Oregon. I guess it is a matter of opinion on whether keeping a maiden name is a position of feminine empowerment, but in my opinion is it a matter of personal choice. Isn't it libertarian to say that we don't want the government to regulate our personal lives?

Just in case you guys are wondering my children have their mother's last name on their Japanese passports, but my last name on their American passports. But to be honest I really don't care what name they take as adults, as long as it is one of our last names, and not a hyphenated last name, because that would be 23 characters long.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I would also ask Sailorman, why are you pretending it's some kind of acontextual, ahistorical phenomenon, or weird accident, that the woman is the one in the married dyad to be confronted with a name change / the need to justify her decision either way? (And don't say that now the phenomenon affects men equally, because it does not.) All those hypothetical reasons you cited for a woman to *want* to take a new last name are indeed perfectly reasonable. But that's not at all the point. She could make up a new last name if she wanted to simply *get away from her abusive family* or *make a fresh start*. Conversely, why isn't the man asked / expected to take a new last name as a sign of "leaving the old life behind" or demonstrating "commonality with his partner?"

Or, more broadly, why do so many men think they are the experts on women's "agency"? Do you know how patronizing that is? Feminists aren't trying to deny women's agency and to imply otherwise is extremely disingenous and dishonest. It is more of a disservice to women to pretend (as it seems you would like us to do?) that no aspects of the status quo are inherently oppressive / discriminatory and are intentionally set up that way. Jeez. If I grow up in an impoverished community with no hope and no "legitimate" opportunities to advance economically (to make a poor and clumsy analogy), and I turn to crime or dealing drugs to make a living, would you similarly argue this is an entirely free choice, made of my own personal agency? After all, no one *literally* forced me. Oppressive systems are funny that way, the way they constrict choices but don't get blamed for doing so, particularly by those with the luxury of being *outside* those systems.

And in my experience Cara, I agree that most women I know who take their husband's last name do so out of "tradition" rather than a well-thought-out, "empowering" rationale. Again, this does NOT make them bad people!!

I've changed my name 3 times now. The third and most recent one was a bit over 3 years ago, and not only did I change my last name, I changed my first name as well. My husband and I decided to take each other's last names and hyphenate, so we're both Curtis-Stanley now. We get a lot of questions about that. People assume that he kept his last name rather than taking mine. There are a lot of raised eyebrows at the idea that he would take my name. I get more eyebrows raised at my somewhat unusual first name than at my hyphenated last name.

It wasn't the first time that he had taken his wife's name, either. He did that with his former wife, and when they divorced, she requested that he stop using her name, so he got it legally changed again.

In this state, there is no provision on the marriage license or other official documentation for changing anybody's name. We both had to go to court, which we did the first weekday after we married. If we ever adopt kids, they'll have our hyphenated last name.

I've changed my name 3 times now. The third and most recent one was a bit over 3 years ago, and not only did I change my last name, I changed my first name as well, to my mother's great consternation. My husband and I decided to take each other's last names and hyphenate, so we're both Curtis-Stanley now. We get a lot of questions about that. People assume that he kept his last name rather than taking mine. There are a lot of raised eyebrows at the idea that he would take my name. I get more eyebrows raised at my somewhat unusual first name than at my hyphenated last name.

It wasn't the first time that he had taken his wife's name, either. He did that with his former wife, whom he married in the late 70s, and when they divorced, she requested that he stop using her name, so he got it legally changed again.

In this state, there is no provision on the marriage license or other official documentation for changing anybody's name. We both had to go to court. If we ever adopt kids, they'll have our hyphenated last name.

i'm impressed that this has become so heated. it's been really interesting to read everyone's perspectives on this. thanks for sharing.

as for me, i have a really vivid memory of being around 8 or 9 years old at my uncle's house when one of my family members made a comment about my older brother being the youngest of my family. when i pulled the "hey, what about me" thing, i was told that i basically didn't count because i'd only have this last name until i got married.

seriously, that might have been the moment i became a feminist.

so i'm keeping my name. at this point, i have no intention of getting married, but were that to change, I'd still keep my name. And I agree with some of the other comments in that i don't think of my last name as being my father's, i think of it as being mine. i'd be open to discussing hyphenation (depending on the last name of my partner) or coming up with a hybrid...especially when children are involved.

But i think i'd just keep my name unless i had kids and we decided to all have the same last name.

"In this state, there is no provision on the marriage license or other official documentation for changing anybody's name. We both had to go to court, which we did the first weekday after we married."

Very very sad! I wish no one had to go through such a hassle to select the last name they want after marriage in any state in the Union.

BTW I think River is a cool name, and I had thought about that giving that name to my son, but it sounds cool as girls name to.

And wealhtheow, there is a difference between "not especially feminist" and "antifeminist." Wearing high heels is not a "feminist" activity but is also not an "antifeminist" activity. I think we would do well to step back from polarizing all behaviors in this way, as someone else already mentioned. I think you can have a feminist "stance" as you go about your life, one which allows you to appreciate the nuances of choices / behaviors. We don't necessarily have to categorize all choices / behaviors according to this rigid dichotomy. Just maintain the "stance." Further, I think the very fact that so many people feel that feminism is ONLY about "varied choices for women" means that something valuable about feminism is NOT getting communicated somewhere along the line, and that saddens me greatly. Truly free choice for women requires an equal playing field for men and women, and we certainly don't have that.

wealhtheow, I didn't realize that it would be a controversial statement to say that most women are feminists!

Firstly, no, most women do not self-identify as feminists. I find it very difficult to try to claim that someone is a feminist when she says that she's not.

Secondly, I don't think that most women think about feminist issues. Most women I meet, when I tell them that I'm a feminist (if it comes up) usually give me something along the lines of "no, things aren't really as fair as they should be, but . . ." Most women I know-- intelligent, thoughtful and self-preserving as they may be, are NOT feminists. Being a thoughtful and independent woman does not make you a feminist. I'm certainly not the definitive voice on the matter, but I think that most other feminists would agree with me on both counts.

Also, I agree with Charity. Someone who says "I thought that feminism was about creating more choices" is correct-- but we have to realize that we do not actually have more choices until those choices are successfully taken out of the context of patriarchy.

lyra27 - I kept my name, and I'm pretty passionate about it. I don't think my name would qualify as snappy. I constantly have to spell it for people, and even then they get it wrong (I don't see what is so difficult, it's only 5 letters, and how on earth did my local council switch an M with a B *and* an I with an E?).

My husband's name is a place in this country, and rather common. Pretty much guaranteed to be spelled properly. Would it have been easier to change to his? Aside from the paperwork...it honestly probably would have been. My in-laws, for example, wouldn't "forget" my name (ugh, nothing has changed...what is so difficult about comprehending that?). I wouldn't be bothered by utility companies that claim to not be able to handle two different surnames on the bills (well, no, I would still be bothered by that, because it's freaking stupid).

While I wouldn't deny anyone else the right to change her name to her husband's name if that's what she really wants...I have to admit I am slightly disappointed with relatives and female friends who change without giving it any thought. None of them have had particularly horrible names, either...one was made much worse by taking her husband's name.

Why shouldn't they take their husbands' names if they like them better than their own? Well, like it's been said over and over...it's a sexist tradition. Thinking about it and weighing the options doesn't make it less sexist (though it does strike me as at least slightly better than choosing the husband's name without considering other choices).

Like Charity just mentioned, this doesn't mean that their actions are antifeminist. They aren't at all. What people choose to call themselves is a very personal decision, and I mostly just wish that more women put some thought into why they should change before automatically doing so. I won't be secretly disappointed with friends who take their husband's names when men taking their wives names is just as prevalent.

Fun What's in a Name Fact: Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa was born Antonio Villar, he and his wife Corina Raigosa combined their names to invent Villaraigosa.

Not So Fun Fact: They just announced they're separating.

Aside from them, can anyone think of any prominent couples who have blended their names? This is the only one I can think of.

So Charity, are you saying that we can make any choice we want, but we need to recognize that our choices are being influenced to a greater or lesser degree by the patriarchy, and that usually the easier choice is easier because it is reinforcing the patriarchy? That being a feminist means looking at those choices for what they truly are, and making as many choices as we can that do not reinforce the patriarchy?

That's what I'm hearing from you, and that's an idea I can get behind.

If that's not what you're saying, let me know.

And Cara, I feel like I might be irritating you, and I apologize, but I am genuinely confused. What is a feminist? I thought that being a thoughtful indpendent women would qualify (although I agree with you that a woman who refuses to self-identify as a feminist shouldn't be called one). I thought a feminist was anyone who believes in equal treatment for men and women, regardless of their gender. Do most women not believe in this?

If this has been addressed already, I apologize...

When I was married, there was never any question about taking my husband's name. Besides the fact that I like my name, the practice is so archaic, I never even considered it. I'm one of the lucky ones, I guess; My husband never questioned my decision. He recognized that it would suck to change his name and couldn't understand how people willingly gave away such a huge part of themselves, just because a person of authority pronounced them man and wife (or wife and wife, or husband and husband).

Our recent concern has been about our future children. When we were married, we were undecided about whether or not we wanted to pro-create. We are currently thinking about having a child, and we are just not sure how to deal with the last name issue. In theory, I'm comfortable hypenating, but if I had a girl, she would most definitely be a feminist and could possibly find herself in a hypenated mess when marrying or comtemplating her own children. Our first thought was to leave the issue to fate - girls would have my surname, and boys would have his. This concept has fostered the ire of even our most feminist friends, who are concerned about having a family who did not share a common last name. I think it would be more of an issue if we had multiple children, but I'm wondering what people think about this concept in general. It seems fair to me (especially since female children run in my family!), but I an struggling with an equitable way to deal with the name issue in general.

Glad to hear that the DC courts corrected their legal guidelines, and now allow a married couple to give their children any surname that they want. I am not against hyphenated last name, but in my case it looks ridiculous. Can't find any other famous couples that use contracted last names, but I do know a lot of new-age couples that do exactly that. My wife and I thought about contracting our last names into one, but the ideas we came up with looked ridiculous, and we couldn't decide who's last name to start with, so we went with the arrangement I mentioned before.

Wealhtheow, I think that's what Charity is saying, and what you've just outlined definitely sounds like an argument that I could make myself, and like the one that Law Fairy made earlier.

As for defining "feminist" . . . again, I'm certainly not qualified to define the word all on my own. But as for my PERSONAL views on what a feminist is . . . I think that in order to qualify as a feminist, it is not enough to simply say that "everyone deserves equal treatment." Most people say that. Bush would say that. But he is not a feminist. In order to be a feminist, I think that you need to recognize not only that things SHOULD be fair, but also that things are NOT fair as they are. I think that you also need to do some degree of speaking out about these issues, even if it's simply correcting and confronting sexist language when you hear it, and voting in a way that supports a feminist agenda.

So, I do think that most women believe that they believe equal treatment to men. But I believe that exceedingly few are willing to admit that they live in a patriarchal society, and far fewer are willing to stand up and say/do something about it. I'm not going to get into an argument with someone who says that they are a feminist, even if they don't do those things . . . but I imagine that few people who are NOT willing to do those things would actually call themselves a feminist.

Lyra27, my last name is excessively boring (Rogers) and often misspelled (as Rodgers) but I never considered changing it for a moment.

My husband's name is actually much cooler than mine. But it's not my name. It makes no more sense for me to change my name to his than it does for me to change my name to Raven Phoenixfyre because that would be cool. (Well, ok, cool if you're 16, but you see my point.) My name is *my* name, not anyone else's, and no one else's name is mine. Issues of names being cool, alphabetically useful, or easy to say came in when I decided what my *kids* would get, because they didn't have names yet. But my own name cannot be changed, because then it wouldn't be my name.

I realize most people are not as freakish on the subject of what constitutes their own name as I am, but I'm pretty sure that if my name was Alara Bishwomoranti I still wouldn't want to change it. After all, my first name is apparently impossible to pronounce (I get "Laura" a *LOT*) and consequently hard to spell, and I have never wanted to change it for a moment.

It's interesting, because I know women who have given this issue a lot of thought -- and in the end, some of them changed their names and some of them didn't. I also know a woman who hyphenated her last name but is not a self-identifying feminist, not in the least. But either way, is it the act itself, or the stigma attached to it, that really bothers us? After all, most of our given surnames are our father's names -- so why is it a stronger feminist statement to retain a name you passively received from your father and your father's father, than to choose the name of someone you're looking to the future with? As long as your eyes are open, to me, the latter is more creative and more hopeful, and both names came from a *man* anyway, so which is the lesser of two evils? Even a mother's maiden name is usually still her father's name. To create your own name from scratch is probably the best solution, but that's also somewhat daunting for some. So, with almost every choice made more difficult by the patriarchy, how can we even easily say what is the most feminist action? And how can we really erase the stigma of any of the options until we stand up and say, "I changed my name and it was a feminist action! Deal with it, patriarchy! My choice no longer means what you think it means." Which goes back to what others said about the thought processes being what really matters, more than the end result. Because otherwise it's the same-old problem of feminists having to polarize themselves from the status quo to make a statement about the patriarchy. Suddenly, if you refuse to polarize, you're a "bad feminist". And sure, it's a worthy statement, but in the end we're still left with only limited choices, a decision we're unhappy with, or guilt if we don't polarize. People's lives exist in the gray areas of these issues and it's never, never an easy place to be.

Also one does not have to be a feminist to support a feminist agenda (equal pay for men and women, no glass ceilings, reproductive rights, etc). My wife doesn't consider her feminist, she prefers to be a traditional (stay at home mom), but she supports the main stream feminist agenda. Everyone's political view is unique, but I think that we (supporters of feminism) all agree that all women should be able to choose any name they want to use after marriage, pay and working condition should be fair and uequal for both women and men, glass ceilings should not be in place, and the government should not have jurisdiction over the womb.

lyra27, I can't emphasize or repeat enough, no one is calling you a bad feminist!

But I also didn't mean, in my earlier posts, to imply that the "end result" doesn't matter at all, so long as the thought process was earnest, effortful, and critical. If we really all did "choose" the "easier" /
"stereotypical" /
"patriarchy-approved" {insert other adjective here} route all the time, even if it was an "informed and thoughtful" choice, or it didn't mean what the patriarchy "wants" it to mean, we would still be, well, stuck in the same position. I wish I believed that simply exclaiming / believing "my choice no longer means what you think it means, patriarchy" was effective / enough. My sense is that in reality, you won't have the opportunity to share the process behind your decision; society just sees the behavior on its face and makes its own assumptions / conclusions; and sometimes the implications are just as dire as if there was no thought process to begin with.

I'll use a terribly loaded example that I loathe using...women choosing to stay at home and raise children and give up jobs in the "public sphere". (Please note that I am not calling this the "easy" choice, nor am I saying this is not valuable, socially important, work, which does carry a certain kind of power and influence. I am also not under the impression that capitalism is wonderful and all our goals should revolve around paid work. god no.)

Anyway, childraising is WORK, we all know it is, and is a perfectly valid "choice" for a woman (despite the fact that said "choice" falls disproportionately to women, versus men, in terms of cultural expectations, the way paid employment is structured, etc., which really means the "choice" is often thrust upon women, not something women sidle on up to out of pure curiosity and free will). NONETHELESS, while a valid choice, if most or all women were to make this choice (and I know it's not realistic to think "all women" would make this choice, or that more integrated options don't exist, but just for the sake of argument, hear me out...) then we would have a drastically reduced number of women in the "public sphere," which would have implications for how the "public sphere" would function, and one of said implications could be that the public sphere would have no reason to change its policies and practices to be less discriminatory against women, or against families, because the women WON'T BE THERE to set new norms / be visible / advocate / agitate / dismantle the current shit. We could imagine or fantasize that women could secretly dominate everything from within the private sphere (the old "hand that rocks the cradle rules the world" chestnut, but, um, that's an old argument and it wasn't true then, so...). It's an extreme and imperfect example, but I gave it a shot. We could all continue to wear makeup forever, too, whether it be because of cultural expectations or our own "preference" (but again, is this really a true "preference" or just the opposite of "not wanting to look unattractive"? Unattractive to whom, and who decides what is "attractive"?) And yes, I wear makeup. But either way, if we all continue to do it, even if our reasons are different and even if we are convinced it is a "choice", the outcome is the same: wearing makeup remains the norm and women and girls see no visible, apparently viable, alternative to doing so, which means that for the next generation, it doesn't really look so much like a "choice."

I don't have the solutions, but I do believe the end results matter. I've rambled on way too much...great thread.

just a thought about naming the kids. i would consider passing on the mother's to the girls and the father's to the boys. (i don't think having the same name effects their feelings of kinship). we each kept our names and created a merged name for our kids.

i also find the term 'maiden' name repulsive. it's my real name, thank you.

While, as I stated, I didn't change my last name, and I do think that most of the time that taking the husbands last name because of tradition or 'you are supposed to' nonsense (espeacilly being the original reason was to symbolize that the woman was now the man's family's responsibility), there are times when it is done without regard to the patriarchy.

For example, a good friend of mine in high school had an abusive father, both physically and mentally. She 'ran away' when she was 18 with a friend she had met on the internet, eventually fell in love, got married, etc. His family, even before they were together romantically, treated her like their own daughter and always made her feel welcome. She took his last name because 1. she wanted nothing to do with her father and the rest of her own family and 2. his family had become her family. It had less to do with tradition and more to do with she wanted to carry the name of the family that helped make her feel like a person again.

On the flip side, a male friend of mine changed his last name to his wifes for similar reasons (although that was one hell of a chore, espeacilly being in the Air Force, people through a fit and it took him 5 months and appearing before a judge to get it done).

Any way it works, I think it is fine as long as there is meaning behind it as to more than just 'tradition'.

While, as I stated, I didn't change my last name, and I do think that most of the time that taking the husbands last name because of tradition or 'you are supposed to' nonsense (espeacilly being the original reason was to symbolize that the woman was now the man's family's responsibility), there are times when it is done without regard to the patriarchy.

For example, a good friend of mine in high school had an abusive father, both physically and mentally. She 'ran away' when she was 18 with a friend she had met on the internet, eventually fell in love, got married, etc. His family, even before they were together romantically, treated her like their own daughter and always made her feel welcome. She took his last name because 1. she wanted nothing to do with her father and the rest of her own family and 2. his family had become her family. It had less to do with tradition and more to do with she wanted to carry the name of the family that helped make her feel like a person again.

On the flip side, a male friend of mine changed his last name to his wifes for similar reasons (although that was one hell of a chore, espeacilly being in the Air Force, people through a fit and it took him 5 months and appearing before a judge to get it done).

Any way it works, I think it is fine as long as there is meaning behind it as to more than just 'tradition'.

Kimmy & Syllogizer-

I changed my last name to my husband's when I got married, but felt so strongly like I had lost my identity that I decided to change back while I was still married. I went to my local Social Security office to change back and I didn't have a problem. There was no fee to change back to my maiden name and all they needed was an accepted ID with my current last name and also something official with my maiden name. I was able to use a student ID card I still had with my maiden name, but I would suggest you call Social Security and ask them specifically what you can use. After that it was just a matter of informing businesses and such that my name was changed. Which took some time and was a pain, but was definitely worth it!

On a more general note, here's an interesting website on name choice freedom:
http://www.lucystoneleague.org
It doesn't seem to be updated too often, but it has some good information.

In the military a man can't change his name, for any reason, without having to see a judge first. However I wonder how many states have marriage applications that will allow a man to change his name after marriage? In my case I got married in Japan first, and though I am not a Japanese citizen, my name is listed on my wife's Koseki as having her last name (the kanji looks pretty cool). But In California, where we got married in America, I can't remember if I had the option to change my name on the marriage license application or not. It was over 7 years ago, and I haven't really thought about it since. However it seems only fair that a man should be able to change his name after marriage, without having to go to judge, if he wants to.

If men don't have the option to change their names on any state marriage license applications, then can we call that reverse sexism?

Rhetorical question, but it shows how sexist traditions affect both sexes.

Itazura,

All I want to know is WHY, if you believe all the things you've listed, and if you are really a "supportor of feminism," you STILL do not consider yourself (and your wife does not consider herself) "feminists."

It's instances such as your own that really hurt the people who aren't afraid to label themselves with the nasty f-word.

carly

We consider ourselves supporters of feminism. I guess we see being supporters of feminism, and actually being feminists separate things.

Can a man be a feminist?

Can woman prefer a traditional lifestyle, and be a feminist?

Yes and yes.

Then I guess we are feminist. I'll mention that to my wife tonight. Her English is terrible, so I doubt she will ever comment here. I wasn't afraid of the feminist label, I just never thought it applied to me (or my wife).

Glad to be part of the club, I guess.

A lot of people are probably feminist, and just don't know it.

Yes and yes, indeed. (As long as "traditional lifestyle" means being married, having kids and staying home with them-- not fetching your husband's slippers, failing to have an opinion and submitting to sex whenever he wants it after his Long, Hard Day. Which I'm assuming is the case.)