I think that this is great. The problem I generally have with naked magazine covers are not only that they exploit women's sexuality, but also that they reinforce our cultural ideals of what women's bodies SHOULD look like (thin, toned, big boobs). I'm not for replacing skinny female nudity with full-figured female nudity all over television and billboards, cramming its way into every aspect of our lives. But I am for redefining what is considered a healthy, sexy female body. And as long as we are going to have naked women on magazine covers, I sure as hell want to see all kinds of naked bodies.

The fact that she's naked *really* isn't an issue - as a regular NME reader I can assure you that she's on the cover or heavily featured in the magazine every week without fail, and this is the first time she's been naked.

As for the question of them turning into a lads mag...I don' think that's true, btu it's a very male-orientated magazine, it's all beer and cocks and sleeping with groupies - it does annoy me with it's assumption that most people interested in music will be male.

Context is very important here. Beth Ditto's cover is a reaction to the typical Maxim cover. It grabs a stereotype and shakes it. Most people wouldn't think twice about seeing a semi-nude cover girl, but make it a nude plus-size woman and suddenly it's shocking. It makes people think and talk about it. Her nudity is very important part of the conversation. Had she been wearing a flattering outfit, people would make note of it, like Jennifer Hudson's cover, and move on. Ditto's nudity really confronts people with her figure, and as the main post notes, both her body confidence and confrontational attitude are in character. The casual sexualization of women as props, where it's par for the course, is a completely different framing from an intelligent, counter culture response where the subject really owns the image.

I agree with everything said about the importance of this picture and how it helps combat society's view of women and makes people think about skinny cover girls as sex objects but really? I just think she beautiful and that there's no good reason for her NOT to be naked on a magazine cover if she wants. Everything about her just looks so lovely that it's hard for me to believe this would be very controversial at all.

But we live in a shallow, stupid world and I don't look forward to what people will have to say about it.

I get what you're saying, and I agree with you and that it's a step forward. I can't help but think this is also going to cause problems: the backlash is pretty severe to hear if you're plus-sized. The Sun (UK) had something yesterday I think: Do you want to see Ditto naked? Some was positive, some was not: that which wasn't was bloody brutal.
But then, yes, you've got to start somewhere with this. I get what you're saying.

Isn't this the same article in which Ditto blames gay men for sizeism?

I love it! Good on NME for poking fun at those stupid "Lad Mags." If we are forced to see tits and ass on the cover of every magazine these days then they might as well shake it up and give us a bit of variety in the body shapes, sizes and colours!

I have a problem with near nude gals on magazine covers. But NME was clearly making a point so I can't blame them one bit for doing the nudie cover.. I think it's gratifying to see non-skeletal women in place of the runway models.

YOu know rolling stone would never have ditto naked on the cover.

it's another naked girl photographed to sell a magazine. because she's a plus size suddenly makes it ok? her weight makes the seductive pose her own? rubbish. take that pose by a girl half her weight and suddenly it's "objectification". how willingly people will throw beliefs out the window simply because that women is "other than the norm".

it's another naked girl photographed to sell a magazine. because she's a plus size suddenly makes it ok? her weight makes the seductive pose her own? rubbish. take that pose by a girl half her weight and suddenly it's "objectification". how willingly people will throw beliefs out the window simply because that women is "other than the norm".

it's another naked girl photographed to sell a magazine. because she's a plus size suddenly makes it ok? her weight makes the seductive pose her own? rubbish. take that pose by a girl half her weight and suddenly it's "objectification". how willingly people will throw beliefs out the window simply because that women is "other than the norm".

music may not be all for men, but a LOT of punk, rock, or indie bands that are mainstream are mostly men, or with just a female vocalist. If we want the 'music fans are all men' thing to change, we need to get more women in music. Emilie Autumn rocks, BTW. She plays the violin too. I'm in love! It's easy to find women in the underground music scene, but we need to bring them out of the underground, and show the world women can rock! I do think the 'lad's mag' comments would abound if Beth Ditto was skeletal, but I think she's hot now. Good for her, really. I don't think I could do something like that. She writes great music, and we need more women in music as I've said.

her weight makes the seductive pose her own? rubbish. take that pose by a girl half her weight and suddenly it's "objectification".

kis4me: No, being passingly familiar with woman in question, Beth Ditto, is what indicates that the nudity and sensual body confidence are her own. It's kind of her thing. To reiterate for the cheap seats, it's the context, not just her size, that makes the difference.

My initial reaction? YES! She looks fabulous.

Fabulous? She looks like she's at risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes. Which is no better than your typical size-0 cover model who chances heart failure, immune dysfunction, and osteoporosis.

How about we set a healthy weight as a beauty standard. Beth Ditto and Kate Moss are both far from it.

My initial reaction? YES! She looks fabulous.

Fabulous? She looks like she's at risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes. Which is no better than your typical size-0 cover model who chances heart failure, immune dysfunction, and osteoporosis.

How about we set a healthy weight as a beauty standard. Beth Ditto and Kate Moss are both far from it.

Lina,
Isn't this the same article in which Ditto blames gay men for sizeism?
---------------------------
Are saying gay men aren't to blame? Is it a fluke that all the top female models have the body types that are close to being the body of a young male? Meaning no butt no breast. That whatever that girls name is that just won Idol got attacked for being a normal size says something.

I have to agree with intheseshoes. If Beth's goal was to shock and disgust us, mission accomplished, but she does not look "fabulous," she looks obese. Couple this photoshoot now with Jessica's words on Colbert, that society creates unattainable standards of beauty. Being sufficiently healthy is not unattainable. Going for a quick jog is not unattainable. LEAVING THAT PINT OF AMERICONE DREAM IN THE SUPERMARKET FREEZER IS NOT UNATTAINABLE.

In the western free world, we are free to be fat, and we can afford the blood pressure medication. But obesity is the same as smoking: it's tough to quit, and it may not even be completely YOUR FAULT, but once you are an adult you are capable of making choices for yourself, and I don't have time for people who make bad choices.

Bleagh. Stick to music, Beth.

intheseshoes and uncommon american, i totally agree with you! How dare that fatty have the nerve to get on the cover of a magazine NUDE? Or clothed, for that matter? Really, she should just stay boarded up in her house, lest she make someone feel that they shouldn't be ashamed of their size.

I'm also going to have to agree with Uncommon American and intheseshoes.

The state of things is incredibly strange. We're expected to demonize smokers, insult them, call them names, ridicule their habit, and then on the other hand, we're expected to be PC about the obese, tell them they "look great", cheer their ability to "be proud", etcetera.

Being proud of being vastly unhealthy like this is, to me, the same as being proud of being an alcoholic.

At what point did having a healthy weight for your height become "An unattainable standard of beauty"? The doctor that tells you to lose weight isn't being "sizist".

Frankly, I'm disgusted that such a term even exists.

She doesn't look fabulous, she doesn't look sexy. It's not "natural" or "normal" to be like that. The human body wasn't meant to carry that around.

You know what, Uncommon American and intheseshoes?

Bite me.

Seriously.

You don't know a damn thing about her health. You don't think she looks great- fine. But don't pretend that you know fuckall about how healthy she is or what kind of risk she's under. You're looking at a picture of her, you have no idea what her diet is like, or how much exercise she gets, so why don't you take your fat shaming and blow it out your ass? When you're her fucking doctor and you know that she's sitting around eating nothing but ice cream and Doritos all day, you can give her lectures about her health risks. But going off about how much of a risk her health is in because of a picture of her?
Fuck off.

I, for one, am really tired of people feeling like it's perfectly acceptable to shame people and attack them for not being thin.

It's not "fat shaming". From that picture, and her own admissions, I've found that she's over 200 pounds, which, based on her height, is plainly unhealthy. Her diet is obviously improper, because if she had a proper healthy diet, she wouldn't be obese.

She's not just "a little overweight", she's flat out obese. Just by BEING obese, she has higher risks of health problems. That's how you can make that call from a picture.

I'm not at all offended if she wants to pose nude. I'm bothered that people want her body to be the new standard of beauty so they have an excuse to be lazy and eat chocolate all day. If the New Feminists set the bar for standards of beauty at obesity, they're going to find very very few men on their side.

I have never in my life met a man who claimed to like beanpole models. Every single one of us likes a round butt and many of us even like a little belly chub. But, just like women want to see a six-pack on a man, we want to see some attempt at fitness. That's all. We do not like 50 extra pounds of blubber any more than you like it on us.

Fight the unfair standards, sure, but don't go around proposing your own, because I already know what I like and when you tell me that I'm "wrong" all it does is alienate me.

Although I applaud Beth Ditto for ALWAYS being up front about her body, whether in concert, in her advice column or in this article, I think it is a tad hypocritical in this case because she has obviously been airbrushed.

There is no cellulite, veins or even pores evident in this picture.

I applaud the new movement for size acceptance in the media, I do. However, "skin" is the new frontier for me, as lame-o as that sounds. Like the Dove Ads for example. "Bigger" womyn are featured but none of them have acne, scars, cellulite or even veins. So they are not "real" womyn in that sense.

After all that ranting, I still say kudos to Beth Ditto. It's a MAJOR step in the right direction for size acceptance.

roymac,

I'm sorry I've angered you so much. I read and comment on Feministing because I see the constant abuse and unfairness toward women in our culture, and it seems so backward to me. I just want to give you a reasonable man's perspective.

Trotting out a clearly unhealthy female form for shock value, and then pretending it's "fabulous" it's so counterproductive to the New Feminist cause. It's counterproductive because it makes feminism a spectacle to be pointed at (and to some people laughed at.) If this is feminism, then roller derby is also feminism. Any way you look at it, these women are hypercompensating for insecurities they wear on their sleeves. It's like Bush invading a country just because they say they don't like Americans.

This photoshoot is all for shock value and that is going to backfire, whether you like it or not.

wow, it sounds like some people on here don't understand that for some people it's harder to lose weight. You think if you simply excercise a bit and cut out the chocolate that your gonna be thin!? Not everyone's metabolism is so easily controlled. Everyones body is different and although Beth's health could be at risk because of her rate, she shouldn't be shunned for her weight because you think she's unhealthy.

If you've never been overweight you won't know the emotional hurdles you have to jump as well as the ones you gotta jump to lose the weight.

Beth was clearly chosen for this cover because they wanted to shock and say "hey, we won't conform to your skeletal ideal!". If they showed a gal that was just slightly overweight it wouldn't have had the same effect.

The Gossip has been on the cover of NME before, so don't worry, she doesn't have to get naked for them to put her on the cover :)

Also, I don't know if you're aware but Beth Ditto has a bimonthly advice column in the Guardian called "Ask Beth Ditto" Where she gives all kinds of queer and size positive advice every other Friday.

yippers. there was a post about the column a while back on feministing.

It's not "fat shaming".

It is fat shaming. When someone says that she's disgusting, that's fat shaming.

From that picture, and her own admissions, I've found that she's over 200 pounds, which, based on her height, is plainly unhealthy.

Yep, she weighs about 210. So what? Do you know how much she exercises? I thought not.

Her diet is obviously improper, because if she had a proper healthy diet, she wouldn't be obese.

Do you know what her diet is?
No?
No.
You don't.
So, again, fuck off.

Maybe she loves eating, but eats healthy foods, and exercises regularly. In which case she's probably not at much risk.

WEIGHT IS NOT A GOOD INDICATION OF HEALTH.

It's not.
You think she's obese, but if you're not her doctor, you're not in any position to tell her that.

She's not just "a little overweight", she's flat out obese. Just by BEING obese, she has higher risks of health problems. That's how you can make that call from a picture.

Are you a doctor? No, obviously not. You haven't got a damn clue about what her health is, so stop suggesting you do.

I'm bothered that people want her body to be the new standard of beauty so they have an excuse to be lazy and eat chocolate all day.

Where has anyone suggested that? That's the sort of comment that makes it clear that you're a fat shamer. You're not really interested in her health. You're interested in making sure that other people continue to work towards the beauty standard that you like. It's possible to be fat but also be healthy and active. You don't see it because you don't want to.

If the New Feminists set the bar for standards of beauty at obesity, they're going to find very very few men on their side.

Again: Nobody is saying that everyone should look like Beth. What is being said is that it's great that she breaks that beauty standard and is proud of her body as it is.

I have never in my life met a man who claimed to like beanpole models. Every single one of us likes a round butt and many of us even like a little belly chub.

Thanks for speaking for every single man, but I think I'm really quite capable of deciding, for myself what I find attractive. Further: Why in the world should Beth Ditto, or any other woman, give a rat's ass what you or I think about how beautiful she is? If you don't find her beautiful, too bad for you, I guess. I don't think she's going to lose any sleep over it.

But, just like women want to see a six-pack on a man, we want to see some attempt at fitness. That's all. We do not like 50 extra pounds of blubber any more than you like it on us.

1. That's patently untrue. There are men and women who do like heavy partners.
2. WEIGHT DOES NOT EQUAL FITNESS. It's entirely possible to be heavy but also very active. Go check out the Big Moves women, and tell me again that you can't be fat and athletic.
3. Keep throwing out terms like "blubber" and tell me that you're not trying to shame people, again.

but don't go around proposing your own, because I already know what I like and when you tell me that I'm "wrong" all it does is alienate me.

I haven't, and I didn't notice anyone else, proposed that Beth should be the new standard.

And you feel alienated? Cry me a river. How do you think you make women feel when you talk about them having "50 extra pounds of blubber"? I'm sure that doesn't alienate them at all.

I'm sorry I've angered you so much. I read and comment on Feministing because I see the constant abuse and unfairness toward women in our culture, and it seems so backward to me.

Well, way to fight it by piling more on. Nothing screams "I'm opposed to abuse and unfairness towards women" than judging a woman and trying to shame her for not falling inside your beauty standards. Keep up the good fight.

I just want to give you a reasonable man's perspective.

As a reasonable man, myself, I think your perspective sucks. I think your "reasonable man's perspective" is pretty standard fat-phobic bs.

Trotting out a clearly unhealthy female form for shock value, and then pretending it's "fabulous" it's so counterproductive to the New Feminist cause.

I take it that's more of your "reasonable" perspective? Here's a different one: it's fabulous because it's a woman who has a body a lot closer to the norm than most of the skinny models you see on magazines, and she's not ashamed of it. She's proud of what she looks like, regardless of how jerks like you try to shame her into feeling bad about it. That's good for all women. You don't have to look like her to be happy with your body. If you're unhealthy you should want to get healthy for health's sake and for your own sake, not because a bunch of men have convinced you that being fat is ugly, which is the attitude you're reinforcing.

It's counterproductive because it makes feminism a spectacle to be pointed at (and to some people laughed at.)

I don't care if some asshats think it's a spectacle. If they think it's okay to laugh at and shame people for being fat, then they're wrong.

Any way you look at it, these women are hypercompensating for insecurities they wear on their sleeves. It's like Bush invading a country just because they say they don't like Americans.

Excusemewhat?

That's... well... idiotic. In a society that tells fat people they should be ashamed of themselves and that they're disgusting, she's decided to pose nude. What, exactly, is she hypercompensating for? As for your comparison... wow.

Hey, did I pick the fact that we'd get a bunch of trolls after the Colbert Report last night, or did I pick it? I'd ask if I get a cookie for my prediction, but then ten people would tell me how FAT MY COOKIE EATING ASS IS.

Fucking assholes. Seriously, ignore them.

i have mixed feelings about the comments being made. first of all, let me say i am plus-size.

many people are opposed to sending the message that "being fat is ok". i think that this is a very black or white way of looking at things.

being "big" isnt neccessarily a symptom of being unhealthy, just as being thin isnt a merit badge of health.

YES, there are medical complications associated with being overweight, but you can eat right and excersize and still be big. its just how some people are. likewise, you can be "normal size" and eat garbage and never excersize.

i think there is too much focus on appearance and not enough on health. it seems like many people making, thankfully, polite comments against this photo and what it means are still associating one with the other. skinny = healthy, fat = unhealthy.

please, dont get me wrong, i'm not saying that beth ditto is the image of female health, but i think that in a society where women are told constantly that being anything but super skinny is just too big, its a breath of fresh air for someone who is NOT super skinny to stand up and demand to be seen as the beautiful woman she is.

the encouragement should be to do things that are healthy and not to look a certain way. live a healthy life and whatever shape your body takes, is the shape that just comes natually to you. THIS is the message society in general should be sending. i'm in favor of seeing more big girls in the media, but i feel like it will just be in a "whoa look! a plus size girl" instead of just being another beautiful girl...

"i'm in favor of seeing more big girls in the media, but i feel like it will just be in a "whoa look! a plus size girl" instead of just being another beautiful girl..."

Well said Lihab. I too fear this. Our media has gotten so bad that I once read an article about how Amy the lead singer of Evanessance, was "most likely very fat once and will someday be very fat again" She looks perfectly healthy and beautiful to me. But because she's not devoid of curves she's made fun of. So stupid...

UA, fuck you, I did not give you permission to speak for me. Do not purport to tell anybody what "men" want. We are not all mind-controlled drones of the patriarchy. We are individuals, and some of us have individual tastes and preferences.

If you've got survey data on het-male-sex-partner-size-preference, let's see it. Otherwise, stick to stating your own preference. Not interested in Beth Ditto, because of her weight, armpit hair, tattoos or any other reason? Fine. You're welcome to your preference.

If the New Feminists set the bar for standards of beauty at obesity, they're going to find very very few men on their side.

jesus christ. missing the point much? How about this:

IT'S NOT FUCKING ABOUT YOU! Feminism is not about getting men on "our" side.

It's about living the way we want to live and not letting asshats like you tell us how to look, behave, act, think, breathe...

We all know that being overweight is unhealthy. But there are plenty of other unhealthy things people do without being ridiculed and shamed and treated as less than human. Weight/body image is a tool society uses against women to diminish our power and to distract us from the shit that really matters. Focusing on her health is window dressing (c'mon, how much do you really care about her health?) that covers up the fact that you are uncomfortable with the message Beth is presenting.

Okay, so if Beth was a little thinner, she would probably be more healthy. But if this were really about health, this cover wouldn't be causing all the strong reactions (both positive and negative). This is resonates with so many people because of all of the symbolism wrapped up in it. Her health is her business...do you make comments to smokers or drinkers about their unhealthy habits as well?

People are cheering Beth Ditto not because she's a poster child for laziness and gluttony (your interpretation) but because what she's saying is a giant FUCK YOU to the establishment that pressures women into looking and behaving a certain way.

Troll attack! There were only 8 comments on this thread last night before Colbert aired. So fuck off!

Mad props to Beth for doing this cover - at first it chapped my ass as a female musician that she was naked on a music magazine, but I do remember the Gossip being on this magazine before, clothed. They are really popular in the UK I've noticed. You can bet an American magazine would NEVER do this.

I'm really sick of people assuming that they can look at a woman (and it's always a woman--remember that Tony Soprano cover of Vanity Fair a while back? How many commenters were shaking their heads and talking about how obviously unhealthy he was because of his fatness? None.) and know instantly how healthy she is. It's bullshit--you can't tell how healthy a person is by their fatness or lack thereof unless you've known them for a while and can track sudden changes.

I'm bothered that people want her body to be the new standard of beauty so they have an excuse to be lazy and eat chocolate all day.

You know what? I'm lazy and I eat chocolate all day, and nobody ever says word one about it. You know why? I'm thin. Where are the people worried about my health? Oh, wait, they're not. Because what you're really worried about is whether or not you find Beth cute.

If the New Feminists set the bar for standards of beauty at obesity, they're going to find very very few men on their side.

What is this "New Feminism" thing you keep alluding to? In any case, try to understand the very first principle of feminism: it's not about men. It's not about what men like. It's not about what men approve of. It's not about what men support. It's actually about women, and what's best for us. Hard to believe, I know, but there it is.

But, just like women want to see a six-pack on a man, we want to see some attempt at fitness.

Roy and Tom have already pointed out that you shouldn't presume to speak for all men. Well, where exactly do you get off speaking for all women? I know plenty of women who adore their plump male partners and find them quite intoxicatingly attractive.

Get a clue. Your personal likes and dislikes are not the center of the universe.

First off, you need to get off the high horse of "Anyone who disagrees with me is a troll".

The people with this mindset know who they are.

" it's fabulous because it's a woman who has a body a lot closer to the norm"

Things like this are a problem. The fact that you treat THAT as "close to the norm". Being obese should not be "the norm". You can claim "blah blah, you know nothing about her health", and so on, but yeah, we do.

Obesity is not healthy. EVER. No matter how much she exercises, someone with a healthy weight for their height will always, always be in better health than someone who is obese.

Also, acting as though any woman who isn't obese is "emaciated", or "rail thin" or a "beanpole" is not helping you. At all. It looks and sounds bitter.

Fat is not a lifestyle, it's not a condition you were born with, so yes, people can and will ridicule you for your personal choice to not do something about it.

As said, there's a difference between being a little overweight, and being morbidly obese.

You can be knee-jerk and reactionary all you want, claiming people want you to fit an "impossible standard of beauty", but, face facts: If you find being a healthy weight "impossible", you're a disgusting human being, period, and I'm not going to feel sorry for you.

I don't respect bad choices, and I'm not going to cheer for someone who is proud of being obese.

No matter what you want to say about her level of activity, obese = unhealthy. Period.

Selidie, your thought process is really horrible. I think you should consider how someone struggling with their weight feels. People like you keep others from not losing weight. Your judgemental attitude towards weight does not help people. I for one sometimes feel so ashamed of my looks after watching television that I can't bear to step outside. Althought my own self image changes on a daily basis of whether I'm comfortable or not in my own skin, I do know a lot of people who are flat out completely uncomfortable with themselves because of peices of shit like you making them feel ashamed of their looks.

Selidie:but, face facts: If you find being a healthy weight "impossible", you're a disgusting human being, period, and I'm not going to feel sorry for you.

A disgusting human??? for someone who claimed that others were on a 'high horse' for suggesting you were a troll because you disagree, the above statement is a joke. I don't see how you think you can get away with insulting those who disagree with you and still be thought of as credible.

There are lots of ways of life that I may not agree with but unless they involve negatively affecting others I don't see how I have a right to shame and insult them.

Also I don't see how you come to the conclusion that anything other than obese is healthy. The majority of what is put out there as beautiful for a woman is unhealthy. the size of a cat walk model is unhealthy and unachiveable for most. I have always existed inside what is healthy for my weight and still never resembled anything that would be described as beautiful by the beauty industry. When the beauty industry ever promotes health you may have a point, but I have never seen it do so in my time on this earth, so Beth is hardly promoting unhealthy attitudes in an otherwise health concious media.

Yes, because we all know the best way to have a rational conversation is to call someone a piece of shit.

Poster child for hypocrisy much?

AFAIK, heart disease is the #1 killer in the US, and nobody has more heart disease than the obese.

I can't imagine how anyone could feel comfortable knowing that that is their future.

I don't see how my thought process is horrible. Much in the same way that I'm not going to coddle an alcoholic, or a drug addict, both of which struggle with a problem, I'm not going to coddle the obese.

Acknowledge you have a problem, something that is affecting your life, your health, and by extension, the people around you, then DO something about it.

I'm not keeping ANYONE from losing weight, nor are people like me.

The only person keeping someone from losing weight is themselves. Blaming it on other people is just a nice neat way to keep themselves from being responsible, so they can say "It's not my fault I'm fat, it's society!".

You make it sound like it's a condition you were born with. You make it sound like this is on par with making fun of people with down syndrome, or a cleft palate.

It's not. It's asking a hell of a lot of people to say "please accept my bad choices, and praise me for them!".

Wow, we went almost 15 comments before the health concern trolls showed up. I'm impressed! (I predicted 5. I lose my mental bet.)

I'm not at all offended if she wants to pose nude. I'm bothered that people want her body to be the new standard of beauty so they have an excuse to be lazy and eat chocolate all day.

No one is suggesting that "fat is the new thin!" here. They're lauding the fact that FOR ONCE we're being offered an alternative from the usual model. Obviously, having a standard wherein every nude model is obese is no better than having a standard wherein every nude model is anorexic. If that were the standard, we would object to it just as much. It's just as unhealthy for women to force-feed themselves to achieve an unrealistic obese ideal as it is for them to starve themselves to attain an unrealistic thin one. That's not the issue here. We're not trying to replace the current situation with its equally-distorted and unrealistic polar opposite. That would be just plain stupid. What we'd like is to see some representation of the REALITY of women's bodies depicted in the media. I hope you're not naive enough to fail to recognize that the type of body typical of nude models is currently NOT REMOTELY REPRESENTATIVE of the types of bodies possessed by women on this planet. We're not every one of us trim, toned and airbrushed. Neither are we all like Beth Ditto. We exist in countless variations under, over, on and in-between the two. Why can't our magazine covers represent this reality?

Maybe it has something to do with people being so fucking resistant to the idea. You know, the ones who pitch a fit when a magazine DARES to put an unhealthily-overweight model on their cover instead of the usual unhealthily-underweight one, because OMG THEY'RE ENCOURAGING WOMEN TO SIT AROUND EATING HAAGEN DAZ! THAT'S SOOOO UNHEALTHY!

Ya think?

People are NOT cheering this cover because they think it's great for a woman to be obese. They're cheering the fact that an obese woman was put nude on a magazine cover AT ALL.

"If the New Feminists set the bar for standards of beauty at obesity, they're going to find very very few men on their side."

Oh, that's right, I forgot--feminism is all about whether or not MEN find us attractive! We discussed this at the last New Feminist meeting, remember? It went like this:

New Feminist #1: "Hey, guess what? I worked out a way for us to stop having eating disorders, low self-esteem, and hating our bodies! It's easy, and it'll completely solve so many of the problems women face today!"
New Feminist #2: "Great! But will men still think we're hawt?"
New Feminist #1: "....I'm not sure. Maybe not?"
New Feminist #2: "Fuck that, then! Let's skip lunch & hit the gym!"

*ahem*
I mock because I care.

Well, to the above, just a thought: If not one member of the other 50% of the planet is on your side, it's not achieving much, is it?

One would think you'd want as many of them to agree with you as possible, no?

Isn't that the idea? You can't just sit in a group of nothing but people that already agree with you, and consider that you've done good. It's not the other feminists you need to convince, really.

Selidie, I can't help but take your comments personally as they are completely uncalled for. You totally missed the entire point of the NME cover. You are just being rude. So I'm being rude back. The perfect magazine gal image needs to be challenged. There are far more women with big asses and curves than skinny cover-ready ones.

I dunno what position you are in, in regards to your self image, but I personally struggle with my own on a daily basis. I do know that those magazine covers hurt my feelings. They imply that I'm not beautiful and the only thing that is beautiful is uber-skinny. Something I simply am not and will never be. So I am totally psyched when I see the NME cover and any women displayed in the media whose not the uber skinny cover-model. It's very gratifying.

why because achievement is anything a man can get behind?

If as a feminist a can convince every woman and no men that what I'm saying is worth getting behind I'm a happy person. Men are great, they just aren't the be and end all.

Well, to the above, just a thought: If not one member of the other 50% of the planet is on your side, it's not achieving much, is it?

One would think you'd want as many of them to agree with you as possible, no?

There are a couple members of that "other 50%" on this thread alone who are already "on our side"--and they're here because they believe in equality, not because they're hoping to get laid.

Did it ever occur to you that a woman shouldn't have to be considered fuckable in order to have people listen to her, or consider her ideas? It's a radical concept, I know...

I don't find my comments uncalled for. I'm not personally directing insults at anyone on this board, and if they're taking my comments personally, that's their own business.

Perhaps the "perfect" magazine image needs to be challenged, but with something that's healthy. Telling people it's "okay to be fat" is not the way to do it, because it's not okay.

You can call me a "health concern troll" all you like, but that's akin to saying the American Lung Assoc. doesn't really care about people's health, they just don't want to smell stinky cigarette smoke. Sounds silly, doesn't it?

Magazine covers don't hurt my feelings, and frankly, they shouldn't hurt yours. There's always going to be someone who looks better than you, there's always going to be someone that looks better than me.

You still make it sound like "anyone who isn't obese is therefore uber-skinny". And yes, it's a bad thing when you flatly, absolutely say that you will "never" be a healthy weight.

Finally, Beth does not "have curves". I hate that "real women have curves" movement. Scarlett Johansson has curves.

Not to be entirely cold, but obesity *isn't* beautiful. Even outside of the physically unappealing aspect of it, it carries with it an image of bad health, and lack of concern with it.

oh way to assume a whole bunch of shit about me. Anyway, whatever. I think it's sad that your so insensitive to the subject. I for one understand what that cover means and it doesn't mean its okay to be obese. It means you don't have to be perfect-cover girl. I like that statement. Yeay!

Dear Selidie,

No one here gives a shit what you do and don't find "beautiful."

Good luck finding someone who does,
Cara

Dear Cara,

Obviously you do, as you saw fit to comment. Besides which, I'm *not* the only person who thinks obesity is bad. Yes, me, and thousands of doctors all agree. Obesity is not a good thing.

Selidie you are wrong. You replied to someone who said that they were never going to be what was considered a healthy weight, by saying that anyone who thought that was a disgusting human. That is an insult directed at a particular person. period.

Secondly who are you to decide what is and isn't ok? I couldn't care less who is and isn't obese unless they ask for my help. Many things are dangerous to the health, extreme sport, some jobs (construction or emergency service work) etc.

Death is a given. We are all going to die. It's the most natural thing in the world so why are we getting so wound up about people who aren't doing everything in their power to keep their lives as long as possible? Seriously, live a little.

I'd rather have a short enjoyable life than a long one of health penance....

Well, if you consider that an insult, so be it. It IS disgusting to walk around basically giving up, saying that a healthy weight is "impossible".

You said: "Secondly who are you to decide what is and isn't ok?"

That'd be a fine statement for something like fashion, body piercings, tattoos, etcetera. Not obesity. Obesity is not some style choice. It's not me that's deciding it's not okay. It's medical science that says it's not okay.

I could say "Who are the American Lung Assoc. to say that smoking isn't okay?" It's not okay. Alcoholism is not okay.

It's not like these are consequence-free life choices.

Also, calling being in good health a "health penance"? Way to sound bitter.

Quality of life is quite important, I'd think. I've seen obese people that get winded walking from the car to the grocery. A distance of no more than 25 feet, and they're out of breath. People that have to be in and out of doctor's offices, have medical problems, vial after vial of pills, blown-out knees, etcetera. That doesn't sound like an "enjoyable life".

Also, it's fine and dandy to live selfishly if you're by yourself, but have you ever considered having a partner? A family? At that point, one would think you'd want to take care of yourself, and be around for them as long as possible.

I know that should I decide to reproduce, I would want to witness as much of their lives as possible.

Maybe that's just me.

One picture is worth......lots of opportunity for mucho verbage, but at the foundation 'naked' sells.

Sigh. Moderators?

I'm sorry I have offended so many of you. I'm not here to piss anybody off, I'm just expressing my opinion. I have as much a right to it and to the expression of it as you do your's. So stop with the "fuck offs" and "asshats."

I am sure that Beth Ditto at least has the physical and financial capacity to not be heavier than I am (I'm 6'3"), but she is (one story said she was 210). Her weight may be a result of many many factors, some which may be physiological. While there are people with serious glandular problems that cause them to retain weight regardless of their behavior, I do not believe for a second that the mass of men and women who fit into the category of "obese" are of this sort. Everyone has a unique metabolism and a unique set of physical properties that may make maintaining a healthy weight (notice I DIDN'T say THIN) more difficult than others. But to use the phrase "unattainable" is wrong. And if you are very very overweight, a competant doctor WILL tell you to lose some. You obviously don't need "society" and "fat shamers" like me to tell you this. But we do anyway.

Obesity, though, has a massive psychological component, and some of the above comments seem to reflect this. People may be overweight for thousands of reasons that are not their fault, too many, in fact, to list here. And I know for a fact that losing weight and improving one's physical health is remarkably difficult -- to some it can be classified as an addiction, not just to food, but to a sedentary lifestyle (which, again, may not be your fault.) But it is not "unattainable" to be healthy. Looking like Keira Knightly, that's unattainable. Having a BMI that meets the minimum standards of physical health, though, is not.

People who are overweight, as I said, may be so for a variety of reasons they have no control over. But at some point we become adults, we are no longer dependants, and we start to make tiny insignificant-seeming decisions completely for ourselves that, put together over a period of years, reveal our character. Time and again, you are told by doctors, news reports, friends, and even sanctimonious prickhead commenters on feminist blogs that being obese is unhealthy. If you ignore these warnings, and instead opt for the chocolate dessert, and put off exercise one more day, and do that for a period of years, you create a big big problem you never bargained for. Moreover, people like me WILL judge you, because you are an adult, and you alone make those tiny decisions everyday, not your metabolism, not your parents, not society.

Being obese is NOT okay. And celebrating obesity is also NOT okay. If you disagree, then say so. No need to call me an asshole, because I already know I am.

Selidie must simply be the picture of perfect health.

Selidie I'm sure that the dictionary definition considers that an insult.

Medical science actually says it has health consequinces. It is up to health science to make recomendations about how we live our lives, not to force us to do their bidding.

Good question about who is the Lung Foundation to say anything about smoking being ok. Who are they? they aren't elected law makers, just an organisation who can make recommendations about a particcular part of the body. The government takes that advice and makes laws accordingly and it is still legal (therefore ok) to smoke.

Sound bitter? couldn't care less if i sound bitter, that niether adds nor subtracts from my point.

About quality of life, that is subjective. I like sitting at home with a nice cup of tea, but some would say that was boring and I'm wasting my life by not going out 'clubbing' or doing rewarding volunteer work or something. whatever floats your boat....

I have a partner and we both are keen rock climbers. When we climb we make many decisions on each climb that weigh up the enjoyability of a climb and the safety. That balance is different for each person and we both accept that in each other, I can't see what the big deal is? If we are comfortable with it, why can't you be?

Seldie: I suggest you do some actual research instead of just spouting the same anti-fat garbage. You throw out an anecdote as though that's the norm, and as though no skinny person has ever had a lifestyle like that. The medical community is putting out more and more studies that show that FAT IS NOT THE SAME AS UNHEALTHY.

Dr. Kelly Brownell- the director of the Yale Center for Eating and Weight Disorders: "Groundbreaking work on fitness and weight has been done by [epidemiologist Steven] Blair and colleagues at the Cooper Institute. They have shown that the advantages of being fit are striking and that people can be fit even if they are fat … and thus have lowered risk of disease. A remarkable finding is that heavy people who are fit have lower risk than thin people who are unfit."

Dr. Carlos Crespo- associate professor of social and preventative medicine at the University of Buffalo's School of Med and Biomed Sciences: "Consistently, physical inactivity was a better predictor of all-cause mortality than being overweight or obese."

Steven Blair, P.E.D. - Cooper Institute for Aerobics Research: "We've studied this from many perspectives in women and in men and we get the same answer: It's not the obesity—it's the fitness."

Findings from the President's Council on Physical Fitness and Sports: "Active obese individuals actually have lower morbidity and mortality than normal weight individuals who are sedentary … the health risks of obesity are largely controlled if a person is physically active and physically fit."

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition: "The all-cause mortality rate of fit, obese men was not significantly different from that of fit, lean men … In summary, we found that obesity did not appear to increase mortality risk in fit men. For long-term health benefits we should focus on improving fitness by increasing physical activity rather than relying only on diet for weight control."

So, no. You, in fact, do not know a damn thing about her health.

Well, yes, it has health consequences. I just don't see why people refuse to acknowledge it. Much the same way I can't imagine lying in a bed, gasping for air at 50 being considered "enjoyable", I cannot imagine keeling over of a heart attack before your children are in high school to be "enjoyable".

There's a reason that people like the Lung Assoc, and assorted doctors are medical professionals. They know what's healthy and what isn't. They aren't trying to push an agenda based on personal bias, they're morally obligated to improve the public health.

UA, find a single peer-reviewed study where a statistically significant portion of the experiment group lost 10% of their bodyweight or more due to a weight loss diet and kept it off for five years.

We'll be here where you get back.

(Hint: it's a wild goose chase. There isn't one, despite attempts by diet companies for years. There are a lot of open questions about how and why people become fat or obese, but this much is clear to anyone who is not hopelessly biased: it is rare for people who are obese to become non-obese, even when they try really hard. So suggesting that they should just lose weight for health reasons is a faith-based approach, like abstinence-only education. We have a society with a bunch of fat people. If you are concerned about their health, talk about getting healthy, not about weight loss -- most folks can improve their health with more exercise, whether or not they lose weight in the process.

If you just don't like the aesthetics of fat, well ... tough. No feminist is going to tell you that women should change their lives just to achieve a look that gives you more wood.

There's a reason that people like the Lung Assoc, and assorted doctors are medical professionals. They know what's healthy and what isn't

Actually Doctors are Health professionals because they went through years of medical school. Not because they have a talent for knowing what is and isn't healthy.

People with a healthy weight do not have blown knees, etcetera. Why can't you accept that the human body was not meant to be the thing these people are letting it become?

You'll do anything to justify your unwillingness to improve your health, won't you? The reason you find comparisons of active obese people, and sedentary healthy weight people, is because active people of a healthy weight are always healthier than active obese people.

Fact of the matter is, if you're obese, there's something wrong.

I can't stand how ridiculous some people get, to the point that they'll sit there and exclaim that obesity isn't unhealthy.

Being a little overweight isn't going to kill you.

There is a distinct difference between "overweight" and "obese".

Smoking and alcoholism and obesity are all health hazards.

The difference, Selidie, is that you aren't calling people who can't stop smoking or drinking "disgusting human beings."

I doubt you would get your panties all in a twist if a thin woman was smoking a cigarette on the magazine cover instead of a naked, overweight woman.

Difference is the way society projects all sorts of shit onto overweight and obese people in a way that is fundamentally different than how society treats other people who do unhealthy things.

All of the Phillip Morris ads about stopping smoking are about health; most ads and products promoting weight loss are about trying to look hotter for someone else's viewing pleasure rather than trying to become for healthy for your own well-being.

That's why so many women see the media's projection of the "ideal" body type so constraining and demeaning. No one is promoting obesity; this example of Beth Ditto is refreshing simply because it is not a repeatition of the same messages we are bombarded with every day, especially because the messages we are subjected to CONNECT sexism with this cult of the idealistic body.

Selidie, the President is a lifelong runner who can't run because of his knees; I blew mine playing rugby in college. In fact, people of all weights have orthopedic problems including knees.

Find any peer-reviewed study that finds bodyweight a morbidity risk controlling for fitness. Anything? No? Didn't think so.

Doctors that complain about weight are using it as a proxy for fitness, but it's a bad proxy, and doctors are no more free of prejudices than the rest of the world.

I haven't denied the health risks once. I'm just saying 'Big fucking deal' why get my knickers in a twist?

So, because diet companies advertise weight loss to "look better" instead of "feel better", you should scoff, and then ignore the premise?

Also, the reason most diets "fail" is because people who lose the weight end up gaining it back because they don't *continue* to eat well.

I have a diet with vegetables, lean meat, fish, and I only have things like red meat, eggs, bacon, and sweets in moderation.

I plan to eat like this for the rest of my life. I'm aware, some people would rather eat pizza after pizza after pizza, followed by greasy bacon cheeseburgers and such, but it's not really that hard to pick sensible eating habits, and stick to them.

I'm not trying to say Kate Moss or something has the "ideal" body, but I am trying to say that obesity is *never* ideal.

Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, yes, alcoholics are incredibly disgusting people, so are any other drug addicts. Absolutely vile.

People with a healthy weight do not have blown knees, etcetera. Why can't you accept that the human body was not meant to be the thing these people are letting it become?

I'll be sure to tell my father that. He'll be happy to know that the years of physical therapy he went through and the painful surgery he had to go to fix his knee was a result of obesity. I'd have thought his doctors would have mentioned that, but you, faceless internet person that you are, clearly know better than his trained medical professionals.

You'll do anything to justify your unwillingness to improve your health, won't you?

What is it about people like you? You think that, because I think you're acting like an ignorant asshole that I must be the case you're talking about? You don't know thing one about me. You're not my doctor, so don't presume to tell me about my health.

The reason you find comparisons of active obese people, and sedentary healthy weight people, is because active people of a healthy weight are always healthier than active obese people.

Findings have been showing that's just not that true. There are some studies that have found that active people who are heavier than their "ideal weight" actually lived longer than active people at their ideal weight. Other studies have shown little to no difference in relative mortality:
The all-cause mortality rate of fit, obese men was not significantly different from that of fit, lean men … In summary, we found that obesity did not appear to increase mortality risk in fit men.

Fact of the matter is, if you're obese, there's something wrong.

The fact of the matter is that you're being a judgemental asshole.

It's not your business to tell total strangers that they're fat or disgusting or at risk for X, Y, and Z. Trying to shame someone for being fat isn't going to help them, it's just going to make it clear that you're a jerk.
Mission accomplished.

Being a little overweight isn't going to kill you.

There is a distinct difference between "overweight" and "obese".

A distinction that appears to be lost on the majority of the fat shamers in this thread. There's no reason to believe that Beth is morbidly obese. You don't like her photograph and you're jumping to conclusions about what it means and you're labeling anyone like her "disgusting."

You said: "Selidie, the President is a lifelong runner who can't run because of his knees; I blew mine playing rugby in college. In fact, people of all weights have orthopedic problems including knees."

Yes, athletics can cause this. But normal weight people will never have this problem simply from standing and normal walking. The obese have the problem simply because their weight is too much for the knees. The knees were never meant to carry that much weight. They're just not equipped for it. They're the joint that carries the most burden in the entire body, and obesity puts a LOT of strain on them, far more than is advisable.

You said: "and doctors are no more free of prejudices than the rest of the world."

I knew someone like this once. She was 170 pounds overweight. At a height of 5'3". Not good. She believed her doctor was trying to enforce "magazine beauty standards" on her, because he told her that her health was in danger due to her immense weight.

They aren't trying to push some secret conspiracy agenda of skinny people.

I'm a functional alcoholic do I count! haha.

Weight can be factored by so many things. Me for example. I use to be a waitress on me feet for 11 hours a day! So I was in pretty good shape. But a year and half ago, I got this sweet office job where I don't have to run around like a maniac! and now I'm 30 pounds heavier. argh. It's hard to find enough hours in the day to excersize EVERY day. It's just not always feasable. I think I'm gonna try the yoga thing tho cause I can do that at home as apose to the gym... i hate the gym.

I'd ask if I get a cookie for my prediction, but then ten people would tell me how FAT MY COOKIE EATING ASS IS.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha! No foolin', Cara.

Um...can I have your cookie?

Also, the reason most diets "fail" is because people who lose the weight end up gaining it back because they don't *continue* to eat well.
...it's not really that hard to pick sensible eating habits, and stick to them.

It's not very intellectually honest to say: "Well, 90%+ of the people who try X fail at it, but X is actually really easy." If X were easy, we should see a much higher success rate. If most people who do something fail, maybe it's not quite as easy as you'd like to say.

Further: So fucking what?

It's great that you've got a diet that makes you happy. What business is it of yours if someone else has a different set of priorities? If someone decides that they know the risks but they get such enjoyment out of eating pizza once a week that they decide to do that, what business is it of yours?

But normal weight people will never have this problem simply from standing and normal walking.

Again, I'll be sure to let my father know this. It's great that you're such a well educated and informed medical professional that you can tell him what the problem was without having anything to do with his particular case.

to the frog queen...

I don't think modern life is all that compatible with health. I've just gained 7lbs over the last year from a change in job that meant I went from exercising LOTS to having no time to exercise. I personally love the gym (well it takes all sorts :) but I can understand that what is an atmosphere that makes one person feel like exercising and coming back regularly is not the same for another. I hope you find something that works for you and that you find happiness soon.

Look, roymacIII, stop being a smartass. You damn well know I wasn't talking about things like arthritis, or assorted conditions that may or may not be genetic.

I'm talking about the fact that the extreme stress obesity puts on the knees puts the obese at a much higher risk of joint damage through normal use (walking, standing) than it does people of a healthy, normal weight.

That's all, and you know it. Don't be a smartass, it's not a good debate tactic.

oh would someone just think about all those poor knees!!!

Thanks Chem gal! I've been doing various stretching and stuff to try and get in shape to run. (first time I tried I totally pulled a muscle!ouch!) The thing is, I eat pretty well. I had to give up my beer tho. *saddness* before I could drink as much beer as I wanted but with the sitting down thing for 9-10hrs a day, beer is just not a good idea at all. I think the yoga thing will work. at least thats what I've heard.

If the New Feminists set the bar for standards of beauty at obesity, they're going to find very very few men on their side.

Feminism is not about getting men on "our" side.

It's not about what men support.

Folks are seriously stereotyping the feminists, here.

Men can be feminist and feminists can be male.

If you endorse political, social, and financial equality for all people regardless of gender, I, for one, don't give a rat's ass what kind of bits you've got on the bottom of you. Welcome to my club.