I totally dont think you are overreacting. You are out to have fun with your friends, not some random stranger who cant take a hint to leave. I too would have been annoyed. I probably would have been the one to spoil his "fun" and told him to please leave us alone. But that is me, because I hate being in such awkward situations, and I more than likely will hint at the fact their presence is not wanted a couple times, and then I will spell it out loud and clear if need be. Of course, I will probably be called a bitch, but I dont care.

And I hate to say this, because it sometimes comes across wrong, but this is a reason my girl friends and I will make sure a guy or two that we trust are there with us - mainly to keep creeps like that away from us if need be. It's a shame though that a few girls cant even go to a bar alone without the worry of some creep ruining our fun, and having to have other males their to so call "protect us."

I don't think you're overreacting at all. And I think it is good for you to be analyzing your behavior and the behavior of others.

I do think that the reason none of you told him to eff off is because we are so programmed to be *nice* and *polite.* Never mind the fact that what he did--touching someone he didn't know in a personal way--is a BIG social transgression. When we gloss over others' big social transgressions, we are according them higher status.

I think it is good to be aware of times when we are nice and polite even when we want to be rude. Gavin DeBecker, who is a safety expert, gives many examples in his books of women who were manipulated by stranger rapists because they were afraid of being *not nice.* For example, a woman accepting help bringing her groceries into her apartment even though she *really* wanted to be left alone. I want to be very clear here--I am not blaming her. I blame the social conditioning that made her feel like she couldn't insist on being left alone.

It sucks, but I think we all need to start establishing firmer social boundaries. If every time a guy did something like that, women flipped out, they would stop doing it. The reason I think it sucks is because we shouldn't have to deal with their social idiocy and advantage-taking of our programmed niceness--they should stop acting like such jackasses.

Rant complete. :)

I don't think you were overreacting. I would have felt the same way, and been torn over not wanting to seem "mean" or "unfriendly." I probably would have told him to go away though (if I could tell it was bothering my friends too), being that I don't go out very often and I wouldn't have wanted WLP to ruin my time.

I've never seen a woman repeatedly return, touching, and physically pushing her way into a group like that...

You haven't? I have. It's called making an ass of yourself after drinking too much.

Jen, THANK YOU! It seems like most of the women I know wouldn't dare to politely ask a man to go away, end a conversation or just walk away from someone who's infringing on your space. "It's mean." This drives me BONKERS. As women, we have a right to choose whom we associate with in public spaces, and we have the right to end conversations!

Not only are you not overreacting, but you're not even being as "nice" as society want you to think you are. Think about it this way: if WLP is an actual decent (albeit wildly clueless) guy, wouldn't he want to know if he was making you & your friends uncomfortable? I think that's practically the definition of "decent" -- that you care about the impact of your actions on other human beings. So, if WLP is not an asshole, you're not actually being nice to him by not saying anything. Think about how bad you'd feel if you found out that you'd been invading someone's space all night in a way that made them uncomfortable, but they hadn't told you. I'd feel like shit, and I'd be a little pissed at them, too, for not giving me the chance to do the right thing.

And if he's the kind of guy who doesn't want to know that he's making you uncomfortable? Well, better to know that up front when you tell him that in a public place, than wait until later when he's already figured out that you're not going to set boundaries with him and decides to follow you outside.

I'm not judging here -- we've all done it. We've learned from diapers not to "make a scene." But what they don't tell you is that no one we would give two shits about is helped by that "nice" silence, and both safety and decency are
actually improved by speaking up.

No, BabyPop, I haven't ever seen that. Sure, I've seen drunk women dancing. Hell, I've been one. But they're in a group they came with, or dancing with one person. Not repeatedly butting into a group of strangers. I think there's a big difference.

I absolutely do not think you were over-reacting. I had a similar experience about a month ago. A man I had never met was among the group I had gone to a bar with. He kept seeking me out to talk to me. However the final straw was when the group was walking to the next bar and he put his hand on the small of my back. I stopped dead in my tracks and said DO NOT TOUCH ME. He reacted as if I had hurt his feelings! A few minutes later he annouced he was going home. The worst part of it was that at that moment I questioned myself and felt guilty for telling him to keep his hands to himself!

I think you're absolutely right, Jen. This guy was intruding in your space, but social pressures make it hard for people- especially women- to be confrontation when that happens.

A few months ago, when I was at a going away party at a bar, there was this drunk guy that came over to our table, and was standing right behind me, over my left shoulder. I didn't notice him at first, but when I did, it startled me, because he was standing only an inch or so away, just out of my sight. Nobody at the table knew the guy. I tried to ignore him, because I didn't want to confront him, but his standing there clearly made everyone at the table uncomfortable.
I ended up confronting him about it, but it was hard to do.

I don't think it's over-reacting to be concerned about these sorts of things. People like WLP are able to intrude on other people's space, and ruin their fun because people like WLP prey (intentionally or not) on the fact that we're (and, again, especially women) are trained that it's not nice or polite to confront people.

I'm not sure what, exactly, the solution is, but I think that one part of it is probably to stop teaching people that confrontation is always wrong, but, rather, to start focusing on appropriate ways of dealing with confrontation to diffuse the situation, and teaching people to better respect other people's personal space. In the case of someone like WLP, they may not care that they're intruding, because they think you'll want them there, so maybe we need to learn that it's okay for us to say "Look, please leave us alone", and that doing so doesn't make us mean, it just means that we're asserting our right to be left alone?

No, BabyPop, I haven't ever seen that. Sure, I've seen drunk women dancing. Hell, I've been one. But they're in a group they came with, or dancing with one person. Not repeatedly butting into a group of strangers. I think there's a big difference.

You haven't? I sure as hell have. I've done it myself. Ornery as hell, always, but I've seen it many times.

1) I'm having trouble getting past the part where the guy was wearing white linen pants. Something about that skeeves me out. I don't know what.

2) I don't know why it is that we can't always tell the annoying stranger to go away. Actually, I thought perhaps it was a southern thing... you know... the whole need to be hospitable, etc., and am kind of relieved to know that women outside of my area have the same problem.

Now... how do we fix it?

I definitely think you are not overreacting. We women are so programmed in our society to be nice all the time, it's insane!

One time an editor told me that every reporter is an asshole if they want to be a success. At first I though she was just an asshole herself. But since then I think I understand what she is saying. Not so much that you have to be an asshole but that people will perceive anyone who knows what she wants, speaks with authority and dares to ask questions as being an asshole (or a bitch).

And think about it. How many really successful, high-level CEO/politican-types do you know who are just super-cuddly nice to everyone? Chances are not many or not any. Think about those rumors that Oprah isn't that nice behind the scenes. Is she a tyrant or a bitch? I can't say for certain, but maybe it's not so much that she's a bitch but that she knows what she wants and doesn't care about being "a nice girl" about it.

In politics you don't have to go very far to see an example. Look at what happened to Hilary Clinton when her husband was running for president and she made the "baking cookies" comment? People pilloried her for not being nice! But she was right! And look at John Edwards' wife. When he ran as John Kerry's running-mate last time and his wife chose to NOT join him on the campaign trail (and instead stayed home to work and take care of their family - which I'd argue is very important work too!) his wife was basically chewed up because she was not "nice" enough to follow her husband around and pose for pictures and smile real pretty.

We women have to be willing to stand up for ourselves, even to douchebags like WLP, and risk being "not nice." I'm not saying I go around just being a jerk to everyone for the sake of being a jerk. But I would agree with an above comment that society is perhaps harmed even more by my being nice all the time. Sometimes someone needs to know he's acting like a clueless ass-clown. Sometimes a friend needs to know she has something in her teeth. Sometimes you gotta take care of yourself or your kids or your friends, even if it means that you'll seem like you're not nice.

Jen, you didn't overreact! I think you just stumbled upon an insight many of us feminists struggle with from time to time. If you're intelligent, strong, brave and know who you are, sometimes for some stupid reason that doesn't go along with "being nice." Perhaps the paradigm should shift and not us women!

I agree that you're definitely not overreacting. I too, like most women who have ever been to a bar, have experienced the totally creepy/ downright annoying dudes that just won't seem to give it up. I agree that it's stressful and can ruin the fun, and most of us don't want to be labeled "the bitch" for telling him to f-off. However, I do think it's completely acceptable (and necessary!) to be straightforward with these creeps. Women are sooo pressured to "just be nice"--like Ismone says--and it's bs. Men are allowed to speak their minds about whatever they want, and not worry about the repercussions of their actions/ words. I think we need to cut the "niceness" crap and start being honest.

I was at a bar a couple weeks ago and there was this German guy who kept trying to talk to me. Now, I have nothing against Germans (mostly), but I was there with my friend and we were just trying to have a girls night out sans the testosterone fest. When he didn't pick up on my oh-so-subtle cues (turning my back to him, continuing to talk to my friend, give him the death stare), I finally just said "Look, I'm not interested in talking to you." He seemed a bit taken aback and said "Wow, that was straight". But he finally left us alone! And I felt like a bad-ass. Anyway, just thought I'd share my story. I think it is definitely possible to be straightforward and set boundaries, even if it's considered "bitchy", at least you'll feel good about your bad self. :)

Regarding Jen's original question - should someone have told him to fuck off?

Well, yeah, if you wanted to.

I've seen the scene described unfold with the sexes reversed, as described, and as a mixed group with just random dude (or lady) coming up. Usually there's a polite ignoring from everyone, which moves to a more assertive ignoring/animosity towards this person, and then on to an outright "fuck off."

I'm not seeing patriarchy here, folks.

To me, he sounds like a sexual predator.

I.E. he is targeting, grooming, testing boundaries.

It's easier sometimes to just talk to the bouncer or bartender and have them relay the info. It's hard to confront people, especially if you have ever been victimized.

Especially as a woman, in our culture, where women are heavily pressured to be 'nice' from infancy on... and also, being out in a bar, there is some blaming involved i.e. 'well you were out in a bar, what were you looking for?' some of the woman in public = open for public consumption stereotype.

You are not overreacting.

One factor here (unless I'm reading your description wrong), is that WLP wasn't physically touching you, he was touching your friend. While I was intruding into your space, in the sense that he was intruding on the group, that's less personally invasive than if he were actually touching you.

If I were touched by a random stranger, I would have no problem telling him to stop. I might try to be nice (the first time), but also clear and firm. No room for misunderstandings.

If it happened to a friend of mine, I guess I would be more hesitant because, while I would back her up if she chose to say no, I wouldn't want to make the decision for her.

Not saying this is the right reaction, just thinking that's probably how I would act.

Addendum: I totally get the fear of over-reacting, or being accused of over-reacting. My little sister and some of my closest friends see me as someone who doesn't "let my hair down" enough . . . often because I'm questioning the larger social and political implications of a situation. Sigh . . . I feel like all we can do is continue to speak up and refuse to be labeled like that.

I've seen the scene described unfold with the sexes reversed, as described, and as a mixed group with just random dude (or lady) coming up. Usually there's a polite ignoring from everyone, which moves to a more assertive ignoring/animosity towards this person, and then on to an outright "fuck off."

I'm not seeing patriarchy here, folks.

I think that men are, in general, taught a sense of entitlement that gives them the idea that they can bully or force their way into other groups- especially groups of women- and that it's perfectly okay. Are there women who also do this? Or who won't take no for an answer? Or who won't take a hint?
Sure.
They're largely the exception to the rule, though.

A man who does these sorts of things is seen as normal. A woman who does them is not. A woman who tells a guy like this to fuck off is seen as over-reacting and a bitch. A guy who tells someone like this to fuck off is just being assertive.

There's a serious double-standard, and a sense of entitlement at play. You may not call it patriarchy, but there's something going on that gives men (and it's almost always men) that sense that they can just intrude in other people's spaces, even when they're clearly not wanted.

Wait...random guy starts out by hugging and kissing your friend, a woman he does not know, then keeps coming back as though he's the life of your party? I'd say you were extremely generous with this asshole. My friends and I have been in this situtaion many times and there are at least two of us that would have told him to back the hell up after the first intrusion. Absolutely NO strange man would have been putting his hands on any of us and getting a pass. Where does this guy get off? He totally invaded your space. Fuck politeness, drunk or not.

Having said that, some people just don't like confrontation. It's easier for some to just ignore people like this rather than say how they really feel and deal with whatever follows. I'm not sure how to deal with that, as I never hesitate to confront someone that has crossed a line.

Sorry your ladies night was tainted by an ego-maniac.

Jen, I agree that you're not overreacting -- and I've struggled with similar situations myself. Sin City Siren & roymacIII make good points that women are taught by society not to make a fuss or cause anyone embarrassment -- while men are trained to be assertive/aggressive. It's something I have to remind myself when I hold my tongue at the risk of hurting some guy's feelings when he's bothering my friends & I.

Unfortunately, there's still a strong patriarchal movement that would keep us women submissive and allow the men to do whatever they want (in the name of tradition and supporting the "natural family") -- and a bunch of the major players are currently attending the World Congress of Families.

Check out RH Reality Check for more info!

I think many women may be consciously, or even subconsciously afraid for their safety. A drunk guy who has lost all concept of polite social interaction may react aggressively.

I've been out with groups of women and have told some similar guy in no uncertain terms to take a hike. Sometimes I've been nice first, and sometimes I haven't, depending on how out of line I feel the guy is acting. I've had several women respond as if I've done something shocking or dangerous, like it's safer to just be nice until he loses interest and goes away

I don't want to be one of those, "since this was my experience with this thing, it must be true for all instances."

That said, RoyMacIII, I've never seen a man or woman perceived to seem "normal" by doing that sort of behavior by anyone ever, though. Then again, I don't really go to bars where dancing is the thing to do.

One factor here (unless I'm reading your description wrong), is that WLP wasn't physically touching you, he was touching your friend. While I was intruding into your space, in the sense that he was intruding on the group, that's less personally invasive than if he were actually touching you.

Anna, to clarify, he did touch me. He kept coming over and putting his arms around a few of us, myself included. I shrugged it off, but didn't confront him. Which is somewhat out of character for me. Once a guy put his head on my shoulder on the subway, and, well, let's just say I did quite a bit more than shrug it off.

I think the reason I behaved differently was not because one was more unwelcome, but because I felt like people would understand why I did that on the train, but not be as supportive of it in a more social situation. Which makes me mad at me.

I agree with overtherainbow about not wanting to seem mean or unfriendly. Also, I think that it is so normal to many women that men force themselves on us that many women don’t see it as a problem or abnormality.

I used to be incredibly shy and despite growing up in an abusive household, welcomed that kind of behavior because I didn’t have the social skills or the courage to talk to men myself. It took a long time and a lot of consoling friends who were raped by partners, by friends/family of their partners or date raped for me to start to connect this kind of behavior with men who rape and abuse women.

There is also an aspect of intimidation in his behavior. I live in Mexico and have for a year. I feel in more physical danger on a daily basis than I have in any place I have lived in in the U.S. As a result, I have become much more assertive, often aggressive, in refusing attention that is not welcome be it talking to me, hitting on me or even just looking. However, I have had to overcome the fear of being retaliated against for daring to speak up when their attention is unwanted. (This is when I am alone of course.)

I think that you have the undeniable right not to be touched by strangers. When there is an unwanted hand touching my person (other than one properly there in an attempt to get past me without being obnoxious), I grab the wrist, turn it up so that the guy's hand is in his face and say something to the effect of "I did not ask you to touch me, I do not want you to touch me so DON'T." Then I call over a bouncer if he gets ugly about it.

Thanks for the clarification, Jen ;).

I can see how a more convivial social situation would make getting pissed harder. The social pressure when you're with a group of friends, especially if they're not acting upset, is a lot greater than if your space is invaded in a more anonymously public space (like the subway).

It's interesting how different kinds of public spaces queue us in to different levels of privacy and tolerance of physical intrusion.

It sounds like you barely reacted at all, so whoever said you'd overreacted is flat wrong. I think if you want to stay away from being accused of overreaction (or souring an evening by causing a spectacle), then you can find a way to suggest "fuck off" rather than just come out and say "fuck off." For instance, I recently relocated to Nashville from Brooklyn, and among the many cultural differences (yes, everything is deep fried here) is that I am constantly called pet names by waitstaff and salespeople. At first I thought maybe it was a cute Southern thing, but then I noticed it happened absolutely everywhere and that it didn't happen to my husband! So what, I can't even be taken seriously when all I'm saying is my drink order? I've got to be baby talked? The next time I was at a restaurant and the waiter said, 'What can I get you to drink, sweetie?" I replied, "Did you just call me sweetie?" and he blushed and apologized. Anyway, saying something like that ("Did you just walk over here and touch me?") makes it clear that you didn't like it, don't welcome it, and gives the other women in your group an opening to state their own distaste. If his reply to you is aggressive, then you can't overreact from that point on--you're justified!

Overreacting? You're out trying to have a good time and keep it within your own boundaries, and he's obviously crossing them! I was at a club not long ago with two gal friends of mine. We're all in college and the crowd was pretty young, but there were three guys who looked to be at least in their late 20s, early 30s creeping around our side of the dance floor. One of them is repeatedly trying to dance behind us - facing us, in true creeper style - and get into our little circle. One friend kept complaining to me but would just turn away when he came around, and he must have done this five or six times before I got in his face and told him outright that he needed to move. And he didn't listen to me, he just put his hands up like "I'm harmless!" which just made me angrier, and we had to call over some of our male friends and then he finally left. I felt pretty highly respected.

I felt for a few seconds like I was overreacting, but you know what, this guy was making us REALLY uncomfortable and he was consistently just THERE, when we made it obvious we weren't interested. I think at the end of the night it's your good time, and if one person's not feelin' it, they get their say. Chances are the girls you're with aren't totally happy to be around some drunk buffoon either.

I just wanted to add my two cents about whether or not there's "patriarchy here."

I think we could debate all day long about whether or not the intruders behavior was the result of patriarchy or not (I happen to think it was, but I wouldn't use the term patriarchy). The real issue that this post raises is: Was Jen's feeling that she could not tell some to fuck off who was bothering her in this particular situation a result of patriarchy (or whatever term you like)?

Personally, I think it is a result of patriarchy because women and other minority groups are talk not to complain and that if they complain they risk censor for daring to challenge the status quo. Plus, it seems like not being able to respond when someone is invading your bodily space is an internalization of the idea (to some degree) that your body is public property or at least that other people have some kind of right to it.

I have been in this situation before. I'm sorry this happened to you Jen. It can feel really awful to feel forced to stifle your feelings when someone is intruding upon your space.

I go out a lot with my girlfriends, and this is totally status quo. So let's analyze: jackass boy is clearly an unwanted presence, but you don't want to be a bitch. As RachelAnne said, there are other ways to say "fuck off", and if you use humor, it's very easy to shame the guy into leaving without being reactionary. If some idiot isn't taking my (generally sarcastic and thinly vieled) hints, I'll grab his hand, and, handing it back to him, say something like "I know I'm hard to resist, but this is a no-touch zone, for you anyway", and actually give him a "oh you silly boy" look. Point is very clear, but it keeps it light, and no conflict. Then of course, if they don't respect that, there's always the "fuck off" option. Shame is what they're lacking, and giving them a dose of it in a point-and-laugh kind of way usually works.

I am constantly called pet names by waitstaff and salespeople.

Working in retail (in the Midwest), I occasionally run into this with customers calling me "hon" or something else I don't really think is appropriate (male or female, it's too familiar). I haven't figured out a way to discourage it--other than not react positively--in a way that doesn't seem confrontational.

But in light of Jen's post, this makes me wonder if it's just another example of acting "nice" when really a behavior should be questioned (even if done with sincere intentions).

I personally wouldn't have said anything because when guys are as drunk as it sounds like he was, they can go from huggy and nice to angry and throwing punches in two seconds flat. I would have been afraid to tell him to go away, cuz honestly, what the fuck am I going to do if he takes a swing at me?

However, after the third time, I would also have gone to the bouncer and told him this guy was making me and my friends uncomfortable, because that's what they're there for. It probably helps that my fiance was a bouncer at one time, and so I am more comfortable than some might be with having people who are acting badly thrown out.

talk = taught

I think part of the problem is that some women actually respond to that type of behavior. The other day I was at the bar with some of my friends who are all Graduate Assistants for the same class at the university. Some cocky student walked up (drunk) to say hi to his GA, and then he turned to one of the women and said "I heard you were the bitchy GA, you were always so rude in class." I shot back with something rude (I was actually quite proud of myself!) but then he started to EXPLAIN himself to the woman. He told her that he didn't really think she was a bitch, he just wanted to 'get her attention.' (cuz thats soooo smooth) And it fucking worked!!! He just passed it off as him being 'funny' as a way to start conversation.
The part that really gets me is that when our group left for the night, she actually LEFT with the douchebag!

I used to see guys act like this in high school all the time - its just a pathetic way to get attention from women (or maybe i'm giving them too much credit for having strategized about it at all!)
Maybe its also a way to test women to see just HOW ridiculous of behavior they will tolerate.... in the minds of the men who do this type of things at bars, perhaps they think it will be easier to get into the pants of the girl who keeps talking to the guy than the girl who says "fuck off, go away"

I'm not trying to say anything about the friends Jen was with, I'm just saying I see this at bars/parties all the time and I wonder why some women let strangers talk to them like that. (there's certainly a difference between ignoring it or going home with the guy :))

i do not think you are overreacting at all. i have been in that sort of situation several times. including one where this guy was coming up and touching my friend (we had had a couple of drinks). i thought my friend knew the guy. after he had touched her and left she told me that she did not know him and didn't like him touching her but didn't know what to do because she didn't want to be *impolite*. i told her that telling him to go away or to eff off is not impolite. so he came up to her again and tried to touch her and i jumped in and asked him to please leave, he didn't get the hint and tried touching my friend a third time so i smacked his forehead with the palm of my hand and told him to get lost, she's not interested. he left after calling me every name in the book, then the bouncers jumped in and kicked him out. i am not advocating violence but if some drunk idiot can't take a hint, and doesn't go away after you have asked, and is assaulting my friend, i leap into action, no matter the costs.

This is so common that I think a night out where it DIDN'T happen to me would be the exception. I do agree with Beth about men doing this to get attention from women, and I'm sure it does work sometimes. I struggle with handling it too - a few of my friends like bringing along on nights out because I can be a very effective 'cock blocker' (no joke, men call me this all the time when I'm out with this particular group of friends), simply because I tell them if they're being inappropriate. I do resent that I end up getting viewed that way, and that's probably because of the deep socialization factor - I comehow 'feel' like I should be nicer... but I can't help my loud mouthed self ;)

It sounds like part of the reason NO ONE did anything was there was an entire group, and it involved a "group decision" to do something.

Unless it was clear, NO ONE in the group was enjoying him, maybe the reason no one spoke up was there was an underlying tension that "well I'm being annoyed by WLP guy but maybe my friend, or the other girls actually like him."

There are certainly ways to shut down such attention without going to the full out "Fuck off asshole" mode though. Something "Well nice to meet you WLP guy, I think we're going to enjoy our party now."

It doesn't have to be said meanly unless he doesn't get it.

Whether men feel its okay to barge into a group or not is an entirely different topic.

I would have wanted to avoid escalating the situation by saying something - because clearly he didn't have boundaries, and he would have characterized his actions as "fun" and "friendly." (Clearly they were not, but he could have worked up some support of this position).

I've been in this exact spot. And if I said something, the other girls chided me for making him mad. I think women tend to see the agressive but friendly guy as a situation that is manageable. But they are afraid of the criticism and anger that would result from standing up to him.

This stuff doesn't just happen in bars where there is dancing. I was in a pub to see a band (Oneida, if anyone is interested) and I was with my husband, but he was standing up near the front and I was nearer the back because I had gotten too hot). I was watching the band and I noticed this dude staring at me...this went on for awhile. After a bit he got my attention and offered me his place (a nice thing to do becuase he had a better view than me), but I said no because I was perfectly fine and didn't want to give the guy some kind of claim over me. He wouldn't take no for an answer and finally grabbed me by the waist and physically moved me into his spot, then stood there grinning like a dumbass like he had done something so manly and chivalrous.

The whole thing really creeped me out, but I didn't know what to do. Looking back I really wish I had just told him how much I didn't appreciate being grabbed, but I was so bewildered.

So no, I don't think telling WLP off would have been overreacting.

I have read your story 3 times, and I am still having a little trouble understanding what happened, but it sounds like the only woman (I am assuming there were no men in your group) who seriously wanted WLP to "Fuck off" was you! That being said I have been told by groups of women at clubs to "Fuck off" (there was once a time in my life, say 21, when I was immature), and after being told to fuck off, I got out of the club. I still do not understand why you didn't tell WLP to "Fuck off". Maybe he was a little more charming at the club than he is in your hindsight! I can't imagine you being a woman who would hesitate to tell a man to "Fuck off".

That all being said I have seen the phenomenon of men that keep returning to groups of women at clubs, and yes, you are right that is not something that women do. I think it is because women rarely feel the need that they have to be the center of attention of a group of men. In fact I think most women would rather not be the center of attention of a group of men (unless they are professional strippers who want to get paid for it).

The root of obviousness is almost always the desire to gain attention.

I meant to say

The root of obnoxiousness is almost always the desire to gain attention.

It's hard to come up with quick and effective responses in a socially complicated situation where there are all sorts of pressures.

It's worth thinking about what you could say and then even praticing it a bit. Seriously. We need to learn to do these things and we don't get taught.

"I think that men are, in general, taught a sense of entitlement that gives them the idea that they can bully or force their way into other groups- especially groups of women- and that it's perfectly okay. Are there women who also do this? Or who won't take no for an answer? Or who won't take a hint?"

No roymacIII I don't think so. The only women I ever saw hound men that they weren't previously in a relationship with, were prostitutes in third world countries. Women do approach individual men in clubs/bars, but will almost always walk away the moment they sense that there is no attraction, because they know that there is some other man around who will have interest in them. Only men will stick to the "if at first fail, try try again" game plan, and it is because we taught to never give up, and we were told the stories of the guy who eventaully got his girl.

Most of the men who keep trying are not jerks (though a lot of them are), and they are just doing what society taught them to do.

I have noticed though, that American men are the most agressive. In most countries a man will never go back to a table of women, after they received the first hint that they are not wanted (in Singapore men have to leave the bar or club immediately if any women in the bar or club tells them to leave).

being a serviceman I have spent a lot of time with drunken male coworkers, and I can tell you all that the only way to stop these men from returning is a stern "Fuck off," because otherwise they will just keep trying to get pass your weak defenses.

Disclaimer: I'm getting ready to go out to celebrate my birthday in second so I didn't have time to read all the comments so I apologize if what i'm about to say has been said or debated already.

Part of the reason I think women keep their mouth shut is that there is a level of fear there. I have yelled at guys to leave us alone and they have respondded by harassing us further and calling us names. There is the fear that when a guy comes up like that you never know how they might react if you go off on them. It's mostly easier if you just ignore them and let them tire themselves out. rather than risk a guy being angry and aggressive and ruining your night even more.

I wonder how many women who fear being labelled 'not nice' had the experience in school of either complaining about a boy or defending themselves against him and suddenly having the teacher criticize their response instead? They never stop the boys from doing crap, they just land on the girls for defending themselves.

"I think part of the problem is that some women actually respond to that type of behavior."

That may be true, Beth.

In my club-going days, I had one friend who often would act like WLP did. I found it disrespectful and embarassing, and told him to knock it off.

But on several occasions, he was rewarded for this behavior by having one of the women leave with him.

It was kind of difficult for me to continue to argue that he was bothering these women if they were often receptive to his actions.

You know, it's funny how some people will ignore what they want and just focus on what they like. But, hey, I know: let's balme the victim. Oh, look, it's Raging Moderate. What a shock.

This reminds me of last summer. I was interning at this non-profit and all of the interns and younger workers would sometimes party after work. Well one of my supervisors was being visited by a college friend -the guy lacked any knowledge of social cues. He was freaking touching women who didn't want it all night(all of us a few years younger than him), obviously looking for some action. He even hovered over me for awhile when I was trying to fall asleep, and he started patting my hair until I essentially told him to "fuck off" (not those words, but that emotion). I said something to my supervisor afterwars -you know, sort of complaining, and he just replied "well, if you try enough, you're going to score eventually." And saying this was a "progressive" man who was interested in women's issues. I was SO pissed.

Ginmar, how was I to convince my friend that his actions were innapropriate if they often got him laid?

And I'm only blaming the victims if you believe that the women who enjoy this sort of harrassment are victims.

The issue, RM, is that according to you even most women /didn't/ like it. Your friend shouldn't do it unless he knows the woman likes it. Once again, I don't think this is rocket science. I /ask/ people before I touch them, usually.

Plus, if you've been hanging around here long enough, you should know that a person who's smashed can't legally give consent in most states anyway. So if he's getting women who are smashed to go home with him, that's not really kosher either.

"Ginmar, how was I to convince my friend that his actions were innapropriate if they often got him laid?"

Gee... how are we supposed to convince rapists there actions are wrong if they don't get caught? Gee... maybe because it's just right to treat other people with respect, and to respect their boundaries (and to find out what their boundaries are BEFORE you cross them)?

Gee... how are we supposed to convince rapists there actions are wrong if they don't get caught?

Apples and oranges, I think. That comparison only works if you believe that men are encouraged to rape because some of their victims enjoy it.

Gee... maybe because it's just right to treat other people with respect, and to respect their boundaries (and to find out what their boundaries are BEFORE you cross them)??

That's more or less what I told him. But that message was overshadowed by the fact that it often worked, and a woman would go home with him.

Again, how do you convince someone that their actions are inappropriate when many of the targets of those actions don't find them inappropriate, and in fact reward him for them?

discussion, reasoning, explaining, and if all else fails, social pressure. You can always choose not to hang out with jerks, you know?

I'm afraid I haven't had a chance to read all the comments so I hope I'm not repeating an earlier sentiment. I always tell men who make myself or my friends feel uncomfortable to fuck off. I tend to start with a bit of a joke, if they react badly I'll have it out with them in a short manner. My mum always said that if you stood strong on things some people would love you and some (maybe many) would hate you. At some point I felt there was more virtue in saying the things I thought were right and good. In being able to enjoy that aspect of virtue (when I do the right thing - I am not a saint) I don't feel uncomfortable and my friends have come to love that aspect of me.
I do however, understand wrestling with whether to step in when a friend is in an awkward scenario for fear of undermining them.

I remember in college, there would be a group of "nice guys" having a beer. I creep would come in and act like a jerk. He would be obnoxious and go up to a table of women. To our surprise, one of the women would go home with him eventually. He would later tell of his conquest in the locker room. Us "nice guys" were always incredulous.

I say tell the ass-holes to fuck off. They act like ass-holes because it works all too often. If more women steped up to the plate, and told them where to go, there would be fewer guys acting like ass-holes.

i cannot count the number of times i have gone home from a bar and had a conversation with myself that mirrors this sentiment. like, i felt uncomfortable and i did not say so.
just the other night (and this is a little different, i recognize) a man sat at a table with my friend and i and our friendly conversation turned to one where he was questioning why i lived where i lived and worked where i worked. he then left to 'see if he could bum a cigarette off somebody' (class act) and when he came back he said, mind if i sit back down with you guys? and my friend pretty much nodded and i Pulled Back The Chair for Him. so not only did i not speak up, i gave him permission to continue putting me in a place i did not want to be. additionally it was a little awk because my friend (for whatever reason) sorta dug his vibe. i did leave shortly thereafter, but not so much cuz i wanted to go home but because of HIM.
and felt so mixed up about: was i worried i would hurt his feelings? do i just not know how to speak up about my own? ugh.

oh and also:
regarding the conversation that ragingmoderate is 'blaming the victim' here and so on, i just don't really see the logic in saying that a person who is friends with a space-invader (you know what i mean) who ends up going home with someone to stop being friends with that person. or that he/she can even REALLY call the guy out. a dude who has effed up social skills could be told one million times that he has effed up social skills, but if bumping up on an unsuspecting woman yields success with that woman, he's never going to see that as asshole behavior.

and i guess i say that as a person who is friends with people who don't always behave in manners that i totally support. like my friend in my above comment who was sweet on a guy i thought was a turd. but she's still my friend.

what should happen is: all interactions are consented to by all parties and no one is assuming power or dominance or claiming those things from another person. when that doesn't happen, we should be able to speak up or give a subtle cue or whatever to redistribute the power, and then everyone goes home having had a good time.
that, however, is not so much how it goes, for the most part.

I'm male and have little to no experience of the bar scene, so take this for what it's worth.

I worked for a while at a museum where the floor staff would occasionally encounter situations that were very awkward (if not outright dangerous) and we absolutely *had* to be able to handle them without causing a big fuss. The solution was to extensively role-play through various scenarios so that we had at least a minimal base of experience to draw on. I wonder if something similar might work here. Details of implementation are fuzzy, but perhaps an afternoon of Skeevy Guy 101 might be well worth the time. All that's really needed are some profeminist men willing to spend a Saturday afternoon playing sketchy characters while the women try out various approaches to getting rid of them. I suspect that it would actually end up being a lot of fun, and it might be quite illuminating as well.

I'd be willing to serve as Gropy McFeelyHands or drunken Nice Guy(tm), though I draw the line at white linen pants.

I have experienced unwelcome boundry crossing before and would like to understand my own reactions better.
Here's the story: A young guy came up to me in public. He was about 15/16; a good 8 years younger than me. He was very softly spoken and together with his age that made him seem unthreatening. He started a conversation and part way through asked if he could hug me. Although I felt extremely uncomfortable I said yes. It was a bizare response. He then hugged me and lingered even though I was obiously trying to disengage. I continued to talk to him and he immediately asked if he could kiss me. Thankfully I was able to say no. I kept talking to him politely with a smile on my face even though inside I was screaming "OMG! Run away from the pervert!" He then hugged me again and again lingered long past the point that I was trying to disengage. I politely finished the conversation, said goodbye and left. At no point did I let him know I felt violated.
My questions are these; why on earth did I let him do any of these things? When he did them, why didn't I let him have a gigantic piece of my mind?
I am not a shy person, I'm usually assertive, why was this situation different?
This whole thing really bugs me.

Unwanted male attention is one of those universal women's issues. It transcends age, race, culture, education, socioeconomic status, etc. I dare say that while we all struggle with effective ways to deal with it, is it not a little lame for us to feel the need to treat it with such kid gloves simply because it's unwanted "male" attention? Would we feel similarly challenged if the unwanted attention were coming from another female? Probably not - because we know the territory a little better and perhaps feel less threatened by potential reprisals. Or if the behaviour occurred in another setting, like at work or the grocery store, we'd rise to the occasion differently. Maybe it's because I'm just too old for WLP's kind of shit but my response to that kind of situation tends to just cut to the chase, congenially and with lots of eye contact. Particularly if I'm in a BAR, where I already KNOW there are likely gonna be a few drunk and disinhibited people. The (pink?) 'elephant in the room' can be graciously -which is not necessarily synonymous with "politely"- and firmly dealt with when someone has the temerity to simply point it out and address it. Regardless of gender, there are only two possible outcomes in that kind of exchange - you win or they win. And if they're drunk and you're not, who's most likely to have the upper hand in determining the course of the exchange? You can offend them or you can recruit them. One's ability to portray authentic self-confidence is not always wholly contingent upon one's political stance on gender inequality. Remove the gender-fear angsting and watch what happens. Again, it may just be my fifty one years speaking, but as a lifelong feminist (like since even before it had a name) I don't feel the need to bounce EVERY exchange with a male off my inner Fem-o-meter. Assholes come in all shapes and sizes and genders. Dealing effectively with them is like anything else we learn - practice makes perfect. (And God bless getting older cuz it somehow expedites weeding out the bullshit sooner rather than later...)
Just thinkin' out loud...

Here's a question:

How do you deal with it if the guy crossing boundaries is a friend of your male friend, who's also present in the room? Is it still okay to tell them to fuck-off, or would you be more careful?

I have no problem calling out friends of my male friends. Often times I feel that they assume I must be sleeping with my guy friend so they treat me differently. After putting them in their place once they usually stop it. My guy friends think it's funny more often than not.

Case in point: I went to my now fiances' boss' house to play poker with them and some other people. During a hand a guy called me "honey" I promptly corrected him by stating what my name was and that it wasn't honey. I rudely responded that he was trying to be polite and I told him that he wasn't and if he wanted to be polite he would address me by my name. AFter the game my fiance's boss yelled at him that he "let me" confront the guy instead of "protecting me" himself. My fiancee just laughed and told him that 1. I can handle myself better than anyone could ever attempt to. and 2. If he had tried to "protect me" I probably would have told him that I could speak for myself.

I'll add my voice to Andrew's.

Pretty early on, I figured out that there were two basic strategies to 'meeting girls'.

First, go to a bar, and invade their personal space. Try it often with a lot of differnt women, one after the other. Eventually, one of 'em will respond. I watched it work time and time again.

Alternatively, get engaged in a group conversation at a party, and try to break it up into a 2-way chat by saying something like 'That was interesting, what you were saying about X ...'.

Environments dominated by noise, crowds, etc, the second strategy doesn't really work. Oh well.

But the effectiveness of the first strategy always amazed me.

Best way to handle it? Reciprocal rudeness. Tell him to piss off. I really doubt it will harsh his buzz for very long.