"Another reason is that prominent clavicles can be a signifier of skinniness. Sharply outlined collarbones say “Don’t let this tent dress fool you: Underneath it all, this girl can fit into a sample size.�

Yes--underneath it all, this girl deprives herself of brownies, cookies, nachos, beer, popcorn, sandwiches, fries, and anything that would make any normal human being happy!

Sigh. Well, I guess the one good thing about this is that people are learning anatomy nomenclature. Now if only I knew of exercises to do to REALLY show off my sternocleidomastoid muscle...hmmm...

Y'know, now that you've said that, someone's going to come up with an elastic strap to exercise the scm. :)

Anyway, I honestly can not understand this obsession with thinness. Not to invoke the "real women have curves" meme, but I've honestly never met a male who was attracted to women with protruding bones. All I can think of is that this is less about sex than about status. Either way, it's scary.

I remember an article about how women who engage in diet wars to be size-0 skinny are doing it for other women rather than men...when men see a woman who isn't a waif, their subconscious (primal) reaction is that she'll be better able to take care of their family/children in rough times. When other straight women see a woman who isn't a waif, their reaction is that her lovehandles bulge out of her skinny jeans. One of the most shallow guys I know still says "Eww" when he sees a girls ribs/collarbone sticking out like a model's.

I just hate, I mean HATE the way that plastic surgeons push all this crap, 'fixing' body parts that don't need fixing.

Haha, one of my (female) friends has answered 'collarbones' when asked what she notices first about a guy. This is horrible, though. It's the protudingness thing that gets me - I mean, fashion magazines are on a totally different planet and can get very excited about the /white/ stripes on stripy deck chairs this minute and the bit of flesh between the nostrils the next, so the whole 'collarbones are the bones of the moment' thing is no surprise. It's the idea that the further they stick out, the better, that's so ick.

I think the competitive skinny thing is an extension of the mean girl mentality. It is unhealthy to boot.

Most guys I know who are willing to be honest with me about their opinions don't generally like bone skinny women.

"Y'know, now that you've said that, someone's going to come up with an elastic strap to exercise the scm. :)"

...and I'll be the first in line to buy it! :)

But I don't want to have a protruding skeleton! Alas, alack, and woe, just another step further from true beauty am I.

Next up: clavicle piercings!

Not that I'm denying them their rights to feel good about their bodies, but I'm getting fed up with the super skinny being compared to the "reubenesque".

The majority of women are normal size but feel bad about having fat deposits where they belong. (And even if you boiled the flesh off my skeleton you wouldn't be able to fit it in a size 4).

I saw a documentary on the BBC the other day about a woman who wanted to see how much effort it would take to become a size zero (she was a UK 14 or something?) and went on a months long diet of 500 calories/day and insane sporting, but she didn't achieve it, her build just didn't allow it.

When she first saw a doctor in the USA, he called her OBESE for being normally proportioned (a booty a belly and a bust) which shocked her. At the end another doctor requested she stop the dieting since she was becoming very ill. They both wondered how little the actual size 0s are eating if she was this strict.

Oh, clavicle piercings have existed for some time now. There is the plain old clavicle surface piercing, which merely travels under the skin, with one barbell parallel to each collar bone, either on top or on bottom. There is also the sub-clavicle piercing, which actually goes underneath the bone and into the body cavity, with two barbells running perpendicular to the collar bone.

The sub-clavicle is, for obvius reasons, quite rare and considered dangerous. Some people do have them, however, and have been able to maintain them.

Also, my collar bone is fairly defined, though not exessively protruding, and I am a size 14...now what does that mean?

On the other side of the coin, I'm skinny as anything, yet my collar bones aren't visible unless I roll my shoulders forward (like the model in the article). It really is all about the build.

One thing I do hate, though, is how every time there's a discussion on physical beauty, there always have to be comments on what men find or don't find attractive. Not that I'm calling anyone out, 'cause I've found myself thinking it from time to time, but I hate that we're so conditioned to think of women's beauty in terms of men's preferences. (And it leaves lesbians out of it entirely, too.)

That same thing kind of bothered me as well, Alecto. I think that perhaps the reason that we feel compelled to refute these beatuy standards by saying that the men we know don't like women who look like that is becuase the appearance is sold to us as the only way for us to get love from men (again, yes, this does leave lesbians out). Yes, extreme skinnyness is unhealthy, but we also want to point out that the idea that thin=approval is a lie.

This is not to say that we should avoid skinnyness to please and attract men. I think it is more about calling the beauty industry out for the lies it spreads.

Not only are my collarbones not especially prominent, they're also uneven! Woe is me!
[/sarcasm]

Seriously, are we actually supposed to care about this?

I have fashionably defined collarbones. All they do is dig into people I hug and make playing the violin a bit uncomfortable after a while.

As someone who is a recovering anorexic, I had already made the connection...all the models had protruding collarbones, and I really wanted them. I recently got past it, and well over the collarbone issue, and am pretty happy with my body...but I guess I'm fat again since you can't see those damn collarbones.

I had a friend in college who was extermely thin, and the way his collarbones formed knobs on his shoulders really freaked me out. It looked uncomfortable, and they poked me when I hugged him.

I got really thin last year when I took up running and I upped my calorie intake and the shoulder muscle training when the knobs began to appear. Protruding bones are just kinda weird IMO.

I have noticed that the exposed clavicle is very popular right now. I read somewhere that a protruding collarbone is like nature's necklace, which seemed . . . both true and yet not particularly desirable to me.

You know, lately i've been thinking about what's fashionable today and I wonder how a culture obsessed with thinness and dieting would ACCEPT the tent dress, babydoll cut, looser fitting fashions that are all the rage since they don't really show off an emaciated body. In fact, i've thought of tent dresses as "the great equalizer", you can look good and fashionable and it doesn't matter what your body looks like underneath! (Though, personally i think EVERYONE big or small kinda looks pregnant or housecoaty a la Edna Turnblad). Oh but of course! Collarbones! THAT'S how you can still prove to everyone that you're painfully thin even under that Chloe dress.

As someone recovering from an eating disorder, I gauge my weight by my clavicles & shoulder blades. I don't know what I weigh now b/c I don't weigh myself--it upsets me too much. I consider myself severely overweight though, I'm a size 12 (Before anyone says something, I know that size 12 is average. In my eyes, though, on me, that's gigantic).
I miss my clavicles & shoulder blades & ribs.
Living in the NYC/NJ area isn't making things easy. When I visit my parents, in a small town in Pennsylvania, I've noticed that many people are plump or at least curvy. But in NYC it just seems like everyone's painfully thin--I've seen guys wearing what looks like size 2 women's jeans.
I just read Fight Like a Girl & the author discusses how hypocritical she felt for dealing with an eating disorder while still calling herself a feminist & I totally get it.
I just wonder if anyone else knows what it's like, to say how wrong this unfair body image is, but to know you're secretly starving so you can fit in (Even though it's never going to be enough).

I think I understand you a bit Moxie...I have never developed a full blown eating disorder, but I have starved myself, all the while railing against the very image that motivates me to go to bed with my stomach feeling like its collapsing in on itself.

My whole adolescent and adult life has been characterized by guilt and self loathing over my weight. I hate that something like my weight affects me so much, but the fact is, it does.

I guess what I am saying is that there is a reaosn we feel this way, and there is a reason that eating disorders are so prevalent, and that is what feminism exists to change. So, while it may seem hypocritical to be a feminist with an eating disorder, who better to speak to the negativie effects of our thin fetish?

So we've done with the flesh of the breasts/waist/butt/vagina and now we're onto BONES? Wow. Just wow. Soon ladies your internal organs will be the indicator of how "hot" you are.

What? Your heart is a centimeter bigger than a fist? Get away from me fatty! [/sarcasm]

"Suzanne Calo, an elementary school teacher in Hicksville, N.Y., is proud of her “bony clavicles,� especially now that she is pregnant and every other part of her body seems to have become bigger."

This bothered me, although I can't put my finger on the exact reason. "Oh, noes! I mustn't appear less than emaciated, even while pregnant!" Something like that.

Whoo-hoo! I knew my day would come! After an extremely awkward and clumsy childhood, I'm left with totally prominent and judding clavicles, due to a couple of unfortunate falls, and now they'll make me the very picture of feminine beauty.

Or, more likely, they'll just continue to hurt before it rains.

I have HUGE protruding clavicles and I'm not emaciated in any way. (Unless 5'6 1/2" and 170 pounds is skinny, which, at a time where Seventeen is calling Scarlett Johanson "curvy" is highly dubious.)

I feel kind of glad, because I like my clavicles. I think it's an interesting bone. But mostly, I'm worried. When you think about it, clavicles are REALLY creepy looking. Sometimes I can't even look at mine, they're so... bony and protruding and fragile. I hope we don't see girls obsessing over their clavicles next... because unless you're built like me, you have to be dangerously, frighteningly skinny to have them stick out.

Also, the pregnant woman really freaked me out, too, and for the same reason: "My belly is swollen, but don't worry, I'm still emaciated!"

“I loved it,� she said. She continues to wear clothes that show off her collarbones, which she calls the “easiest and least controversial expression of a kind of sex appeal.�

Oh, I don't know. We're not allowed to wear shirts that don't cover the entire shoulder at my high school, leading myself and many other young women to rub (and sometimes lick!) our shoulders with mock eroticism. "OOH, oh no! My shoulder is sticking out? Oh, I'm SO sorry! I bet this is just SO hot that you can't concentrate in the learning environment!" It's Southern California. It gets really, really, hot and my administration needs to get real: If you MEAN "no cleavage" just say "no cleavage" and enforce that rule. It's absurd.

Holy spoon. For the record, I fit a size zero (in some stores -- in others, I'm a 2 or 4) and my clavicles only stick out like that if I'm hunching my shoulders forward in an unflattering fashion. I agree with Alecto that this has more to do with build and bone structure than with weight. Specifically, I'm thinking that it's the tall folks who are more likely to have especially defined clavicles. I'm 5'2" -- what about you ladies who mentioned having naturally "fashionable" collarbones?

the author discusses how hypocritical she felt for dealing with an eating disorder while still calling herself a feminist & I totally get it.

I have a friend who feels exactly this way. I wish I knew something helpful to say. Moxie, do you think it would helpful to her if I recommend that book to her?

I agree with all the people who mentioned bone structure here... I am about 5'6" and 170lbs, but I have been as low as 135lbs (which puts me in a size 4ish) and I have always had clavicles that stuck out and looked defined. I never thought about them till I read the article then I found myself in the bathroom miror hunching my shoulders, poking at them, ect... So I guess the women of the world can stop trying to make our hip bones show in the front and start trying to make our clavicles stick out... J/k... which is good cause the hip bone thing was not working for me... I like fries and dorritos too much!

True, marcyfight, it is refuting the lies of the beauty industry to point out that men don't necessarily find emaciation attractive. But I think we do need to make it clear that that's why we're reference men's tastes, and not because men should be the final arbiter of hotness.

And, Moxie, I totally feel guilty for being a feminist with an (admittedly mild) eating disorder. However, in Unbearable Weight, Susan Bordo examines all the different reasons for eating disorders, which are usually contradictory (I know, so unexpected in this dichotomous society of ours!). According to her, one of the many motivations for anorexia is the desire not to have a body, since bodies are coded as feminine and thus undesirable. Or to have a boy's shape, which is more desirable. I feel that it fits in with a lot of the undercurrent of women having to act like men to be considered acceptable by society in non-beauty arenas, like, oh, every job ever. Except maybe nursing and teaching. So I feel a little less guilty, since anorexia is not just based on attractiveness and beauty standards. Plus, we have to remember that it is a disease, so it's not like we're in control of it, anyway! If anything, feminism's supposed to make our lives better, not worse -- I don't think any feminist is going to judge you for being anorexic, as long as you aren't promoting it as a good lifestyle choice.

Back to the body shape deal, I have a very round face, and even a double chin, so there are just some places on some people that work differently. If you look at, say, Renee Zellweger, even at her frailest, she still had a round face, too.

As a small framed woman who was naturally thin when I was young and now am fighting middle age spread, I am fascinated. I DO see my clavicles...always have...and my shoulders, neck, wrists, elbows, knees, and ankles and rather bony, too. HOWEVER...I have the upper arm flab, back fat, flabby belly, love handles, and flabby butt and thighs, too. I have worked hard for over a year to get my body into shape: I'm 5' 4" and weigh around 127. When I was young, I weighed around 104 but ate whatever I wanted and never exercised...naturally thin without effort. Now, I work VERY hard and STILL can't get rid of all of the fatty, flabby parts. If only I could move the fat where I wanted it! :) I will continue to work out for the health benefits, but I sure hope I can find a way to rid myself of the flab in the process. In the meantime, I guess I can smile about my bony parts at the same time I pout about the flab!!

Hey, all, sorry it took so long to reply.
*Marcy: I guess what I am saying is that there is a reaosn we feel this way, and there is a reason that eating disorders are so prevalent, and that is what feminism exists to change. So, while it may seem hypocritical to be a feminist with an eating disorder, who better to speak to the negativie effects of our thin fetish?
That's true. At least I/we realize that our views about weight are messed up. I've talked to people who think that it's normal to loathe their bodies, or that what they're doing isn't unhealthy.
*EG: I have a friend who feels exactly this way. I wish I knew something helpful to say. Moxie, do you think it would helpful to her if I recommend that book to her?
The book is a really good intro the feminism & activism. If she's familiar with these issues she might just want to read the chapter about it. I read Fight Like a Girl & Jessica's book at the same time, & one of them discusses women's beauty standards in relation to their political power & I thought that was interesting.
Your friend seems aware that she has a problem, so I'd recomend the book,, delicately.
*Alecto: The book, Unbearable Weight sounds good. According to her, one of the many motivations for anorexia is the desire not to have a body, since bodies are coded as feminine and thus undesirable.
I can recognize that. There are times I just feel like I take up too much space, especially on the subway or PATH system. It's not fair--men can take up as much room as they like, in fact, I've seen guys taking up two or more seats on a crowded train.
I would never promote anorexia or bulimia as a healthy lifestyle choice. I remember a couple of years ago, the media got wind of the pro-ana & -mia sites & I got really pissed off. Those sites are sick & the way the news was reported was just giving them more traffic.

Thanks for the support, everybody. This is really hard to discuss.