Ugh.

This is my favorite part of the article: “many blasted the teen as no “innocent� and insisted she looks much older than her 15 years, espeically dressed provacatiively with a top that left little to the imagination.�

And that the minister had been “criticizing all involved, including the teen,�

Of course girls who wear skimpy tops and dance deserve to be assaulted like that, with their head banging on the floor. It pisses me off because it is so darn obvious that she had no control over the situation.

Disgusting.

Disgusting.

Jesus fucking Christ!

That was crazy! I have a lot of mixed feelings about it. On the one hand,
she didn't seem to be opposed to what was going on, but on the other, do
we really want simulated statutory rape ON STAGE?! I don't.

initially I thought, well maybe it's bad but not terrible if it's a member of his backup dancers who knew this would be part of the 'dance' and who consented to be a part of such an act

but yeah... then I read the article and it became quite apparent that this girl wasn't part of his dance troupe, and didn't know that this would be the nature of the 'dance' and so clearly could not have constented to participate in it... and by the way she's 15

the way he just threw her around for show where clearly she had no control and was even injured is just disgusting

As disturbing as the entire video is, what really gets me is that in the end he just walks offstage, and some other guy walks over to help the girl off stage. It just seemed to add to his "use" of her; once he was through, he was through...

“On the one hand, she didn't seem to be opposed to what was going on�
But how would she express her opposition?? She kept screaming “Oh my god!�. I am sure she must have been really overwhelmed. She is only 15 and looks small compared to the guy, and all the cameras are on her. What would you do really? I am not sure that I would have done anything different.

Ugh, I already disliked him after his whole "conflict diamonds do not exist" statement, and now I have another reason never to listen to his crap.

You know we live in a twisted world when two adult actors exchanging a peck on the cheek results in a call for their arrest, while a singer simulating a violent rape of a child results in people calling out the GIRL for being oh so slutty (how dare she have a developed and attractive body).

I'm just curious, how would you all feel if she'd been 18?

I was a very promiscuous 15 year old girl - in fact had my first daughter at 15 - and I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing at the time it happened and regretted it a bit in retrospect.

What it comes down to I think is a few things:

Would this behavior (his OR hers) been acceptable if she had been 18?

Is 15 an age of consent in Trinidad (and what constitues sexual assault, etc.)?

Is his behvior criminal or just disgusting?

I am more disturbed that the girl was able to get into an adult club and that she either got around her parent's rules or that her parents weren't paying enough attention because frankly this is the kind of thing you see in adult night clubs.

"Is his behvior criminal or just disgusting?"

Actually, being touched sexually in a way you don't want is always criminal, at least in the United Stats.

"because frankly this is the kind of thing you see in adult night clubs."

Really? I /worked/ in a night-club and I never saw a man forcibly dry-humping a woman. If I had seen something like a man doing that or so much as repeatedly making rude comments, my job as a bouncer would have been to kick his ass out on the street...

Bottom line is, doesn't matter how promiscuous you are, 18 or 15, he was the one taking control, no vice versa. If she didn't want it (and from both the video and her comments it appears she didn't) it's both disgusting AND criminal.

I know people are going to scream racism for me saying this, but my experiences with reggae and other West Indian parties is that dancing for many men in that culture is basically just simulated sex. They come up to you and grind on you and when you step back they laugh at you and imply you're immature. This had actually happened to me several times, to the extent that I won't even bother attending my friends and co-workers parties.One time I pointed out to a man that I wasn't interested in him grinding on me, saying I was married.He just laughed and said he was too and kept it up till I stepped away. There seems to be a sad lack of respect for women in general.

I think important things to keep in mind, LM, is that sometimes some of us females /like/ grinding sometimes, and so I don't consider that type of dancing inherently sexist.

Of course it's wrong for people to try and pressure you into doing something if you don't want to, but that basic premise happens oodles in white, middle-class culture as well...

I am not sure that I would have done anything different.

That is to say, sojourner you would have been up there in the first place?

Not to "defend" Akon but did HE know she was 15 at the time? I've seen the video and I know he based it under the pretense that there was a "contest" to win a trip to Africa (which turned out to be totally bogus) and she volunteered to get onstage and "dance" in order for a shot to win. False pretenses aside, she got on stage of her own volition first in order to *possibly* degrade herself for a trip she thought she could win. I don't recall anyone asking the women who got on stage their ages and so it was assumed that all the women who did participate were of age and it wasn't found out until later that she was 15. If I'm off about this let me know but from all the reports I've read that's how it happened.

The sad fact is we can't arrest men for acting like dicks and treating women like sexual objects, all of the women got on stage of their own free will, which as feminists we have to let slide.

So now the question is do we need to ID all young women for raunchy concerts? Or should they have taken the time to ID all the women who got on stage instead of assuming they were of age?

Mind you I don't like Akon one bit (sans his yodeling for the Gwen Stefani song, but that could have been anybody) and he's an asshole for getting these women onstage under a lie and maybe she was the first to go up and didn't realize what dancing with Akon entailed (check out his molestation of Tara Reid at another concert if you can find it, what he did onstage is this guys MO).

Actually, being touched sexually in a way you don't want is always criminal, at least in the United Stats.

-- ACS

"The sad fact is we can't arrest men for acting like dicks and treating women like sexual objects"

UltraMagnus, I don't think you understand what people are generally upset over. The unwanted touching (to a pretty significant, definitely sexual extent) IS a criminal act. It may be worse in ways because she was also a young, confused girl. But even if she was of legal age it is STILL a criminal act.

I do not know about all the laws of Trinidad, but in the U.S. we recognize harassing women as criminal (i.e. saying rude things or touching) and direct unwanted sexual touching is considered sexual assault.

"I wish this were the case (that it was specifically illegal, rather than -- as it frequently is -- just handled as simple "assault"), but, practically, it's really not. "

Well of course we've got problems with are court systems. I'm just talking about laws. It is absolutely illegal, and if someone cares enough to try and bring a case to court, they have every right to bring it under "sexual assault". I'm just speaking as someone trained to assist survivors of sexual violence in finding resources and making decisions (if they choose to) on what to do legally.

UM, while I agree it was their choice to get up on stage and dance, and he couldn't have known her age, neither of those things, for me, changes the reprehensibility of his conduct.

Those women were induced to dance under false pretenses. First off, this might be a little controversial, but I don't think there's anything inherently "bad" about a woman dancing on stage -- hell, every now and then I just plain feel like shaking my stuff, and I don't think that makes me a bad feminist. I think that to the extent men disrespect and objectify me for it, that is THEIR responsibility and THEIR wrongdoing, NOT MINE. Just as no woman is responsible for a man's actions if she's walking around, hell, buck naked, no woman is responsible for a man treating her like shit just because she had the audacity to dance and enjoy herself.

Also, these women were promised a trip to Africa. I have to say, catch me in the right mood, and I might just dance to try to win a trip to Africa. I mean, how fucking cool would that be? A free trip to Africa? Hell yes, that would be awesome. Akon LIED to these women and told them they were competing for a desirable prize. Then when the contest was over -- Surprise! He lied.

And anyway, even IF these women had been told that the prize for dancing was getting to "dance" with Akon -- dancing and being THROWN around on the stage are two very different things. That was one of the most violent "dances" I've ever seen. I've been to male revues where the women sometimes get called up for the privilege of being on stage with the guys, and it's a thousand million times gentler -- even though it's OVERTLY meant to be sexy, and that's SPECIFICALLY why the women are there. Just watching that video I got a headache. She was being tossed around like a rag doll. She was clinging to him for dear life. I imagine she was terrified and just thinking "please God, let this stop soon." She had no way to get away, no way to get him to slow down or let her go -- as far as I'm concerned, this pretty much WAS a rape. So in my mind it doesn't matter WHAT age she was.

Ninapendamaishi,

I really do get why people are upset and I honestly believe this girl probably had no idea what she was getting into and even if he'd known she was 14 he probably would have done it anyways.

That being said no one, not even the girl's father, seems to want to press charges, which makes this whole thing a moot point for me. If I'd actually bought anything of Akon's I'd be with Samhita in deleting it, but I really own only one song he's on.

I think this goes with Samhita's earlier post about dancing to misogynist rap music, we as women (especially black women) just need to stop supporting it, period.

"I think this goes with Samhita's earlier post about dancing to misogynist rap music, we as women (especially black women) just need to stop supporting it, period. "

I understand this is a bit debateable, but i don't have a particular problem with that point.

I guess I interpreted your post above to sort of be saying that because this girl was willing to dance in a club dance contest she sort of deserved what came next, but if that's not how you meant it I apologize.

That being said, I dance to hip-hop too. Sure, I wish the lyrics weren't misogynistic, but I'm not the one in charge and making the music, and the beats are why you dance to it. (More practically, I guess I don't think you're more likely to get a widespread boycott of misogynistic hip-hop (to the point where /that/ would change the industry, anymore than you are likely to get lots of artists who are more respectful of women signed with big lables in the near future... it's sort of a chicken and the egg phenomenon if you ask me)

Ninapendamaishi,

You are partially right, I was being kind of an asshole with the girl, I have no idea if she knew what was entailed when it came to the dancing contest, however I can almost guarantee you it would entail some sort of material that your average feminist would find degrading (bending over and making your ass bounce, for instance) and in hindsight she got caught up with Akon grinding into her. But had this girl been of age, would we even be watching this footage? It just seems to me it's the age that's upsetting people because like I said, he did the exact same thing to Tara Reid a few months back and I don't recall seeing anyone here upset about it, but then again she's a fully grown woman.

That being said, I dance to hip-hop too. Sure, I wish the lyrics weren't misogynistic, but I'm not the one in charge and making the music, and the beats are why you dance to it. (More practically, I guess I don't think you're more likely to get a widespread boycott of misogynistic hip-hop (to the point where /that/ would change the industry, anymore than you are likely to get lots of artists who are more respectful of women signed with big lables in the near future... it's sort of a chicken and the egg phenomenon if you ask me)

Then what's the point of even trying at all? If women continue to buy into this music and ignore what the overall message is then the powers that be will continue to sell it. As I pointed out in the other post, already "bitch" and "ho" have become synonymous with "woman" when in the beginning they (the rappers) kept saying that they weren't talking about ALL women just the bitches and the hos. We let that go and look what happened.

And I'm not sure what you mean by the chicken or the egg. Are you saying you can't tell which came first?

In the beginning of hip-hop there was none of this truly hateful language towards women, that didn't start to the 90s with the rise of gangster rap and later especially in the late 90s when southern crunk, other wise known as "strip hop" (because it was predominantly made/played for the strip clubs in southern black cities like Atlanta)and I don't want to sound like a broken record but I'll say it again: black women especially let them get away with this. We turned our heads in the other direction and now we have an entire generation of men who think it's okay and funny to call women bitches and that women should just accept it.

Even though hip-hop is mostly bought by surburban white teens I still believe that black women can put a stop to this but it requires us giving up something that we like to do (dance) and that's just not going to happen. Like you said, a lot of women just like the beats, I was one of those women, but there comes a point where you can no longer ignore the lyrics.

I have been in several gay clubs and you know what they don't play? Homophobic hip-hop, no matter how good the "beats" are. Not that the gay community matters to those in power at rap record labels but I bet you if women stopped going to clubs that play this music en masse someone would have to take notice.

Maybe you're right and that's just a pipe dream, but if that's the case then we really have no right to complain about the system that we are supporting.

That's a really interesting comparison, UM--to the gay clubs, I mean. I'd never thought of that before. Thanks.

For me, there's always a somewhat, but not very, moveable line between what I can stomach and what I can't. I can't listen to most misogynist crap because it viscerally disgusts me; there's some stuff I love, usually by the Rolling Stones (except "Under my Thumb" and "Midnight Rambler," which even I will have nothing to do with), which can be good enough that I'll move the line for it. But it's not a thought-out policy. What you say is very interesting to me.

(hey, first time posting!)

The comments in the article about how she didn't look that innocent and the top she was wearing reminded me of the Wales statutory rape story from last week.

I think this is fucked up regardless of her age. I agree with LF that she clearly had no control over the situation, he was over her, moving violently so that she couldn't get away and carrying her around the stage (not to mention just leaving her on the floor when he was done). If she did not consent to that type of "dance" before hand in very clear language (and she said she didn't), I consider it to be sexual assault. If some guy in a dance club asks me to dance and I say yes, that is NOT an invitation to throw me on the floor and start violently dry humping me. AT ALL. I think pretty much everyone can agree with that. What's the difference if the guy is famous or not? (oh wait, I think I just answered my own question)

"Even though hip-hop is mostly bought by surburban white teens I still believe that black women can put a stop to this but it requires us giving up something that we like to do (dance) and that's just not going to happen."

Why would it require giving up dance? Why not keep dancing but dance to something else?

For example, some of my favorite dance music doesn't have misogynist lyrics because it doesn't have lyrics at all!

Trust me, a whole lot of techno and other electronica tracks don't pose any "the lyrics are misogynist but...", "I can't hear the lyrics well enough in this club to tell if they're misogynist but...", or "I don't know Arabic/French/Mandarin/Mongolian/Punjabi/Spanish/etc. enough to know if the lyrics are misogynist but...", dilemmas. ;)

"I can almost guarantee you it would entail some sort of material that your average feminist would find degrading (bending over and making your ass bounce, for instance) "

And see... I don't find that inherently degrading. I make my ass bounce on dance floors. It's sexual yes, but not necessarily degrading. Everybody (men and women)like a little exhibitioinism now and then. But it's still /my/ sexuality and /my/ ass, and when someone crosses that line (e.g. by telling me what to do or manhandling me) or disrespects me (i.e. by calling insults) /that/ is the point where I'm gonna be pissed, and to me it becomes degrading.

Why would it require giving up dance? Why not keep dancing but dance to something else?

Mina, that's what I meant. My mistake. Whenever misogynist music comes on I stop dancing, then again, that's when I'm at clubs that plays a mix of music including hip-hop. Usually my girlfriends go dance at gay clubs.

I don't find that inherently degrading. I make my ass bounce on dance floors. It's sexual yes, but not necessarily degrading.

Ninapendamaishi, that's your prerogative but are you trying to win something? I'm not going to get into this debate because it can go on forever but I will say this: maybe you dance at different kinds of straight clubs than I do but I've never seen men do the kind of exhibitionism that women engage in (two dude's kissing? baring their dicks? I think not). Usually the straight guys just stand there.

Props to you for finding a club where straight guys can actually dance;) (only slightly joking)

"baring their dicks?"

How about baring their chests? (Because I really can't recall seeing chicks bearing their genitals in clubs). I happen to be one of those feminists who think female chests are over-sexualized in our culture (there are plenty of cultures where women baring chests is fairly normal). Also, I don't know about you, but I definitely salivate over certain guys baring chests.

"two dude's kissing?"

Well, I'm not advocating for pretending to be lesbian when you're not. I think that's insulting and trivializing to lesbians.

No, what I mean is that guys do posture, and they do show off their bodies, and they do certain things to draw attention to themselves. All I'm saying is that I think this is sort of a universal human thing people do sometimes. I don't think putting myself in a position where other people can admire me in a sexual fashion is a mistake if it's what /I/ want to do.

What I want is for women to have full control over their own bodies. This means not letting men do things to them they don't want, but it also means giving women permission to express their sexuality as they see fit, I think.

I'm not trying to keep an argument going with you, really, it's just that for me these are also important considerations in this story. I'm also an art model, though, and I guess you could say this whole theme of being comfortable with human bodies and open sexuality and not feeling like those things inherently jeapordize feminist goals are pretty important to me.

Bottom line is, doesn't matter how promiscuous you are, 18 or 15, he was the one taking control, no vice versa. If she didn't want it (and from both the video and her comments it appears she didn't) it's both disgusting AND criminal.

Well said.

"As disturbing as the entire video is, what really gets me is that in the end he just walks offstage, and some other guy walks over to help the girl off stage. It just seemed to add to his "use" of her; once he was through, he was through..."

That's my favorite part too. Disgusting and sick, if you ask me.

"baring their dicks?"

How about baring their chests? (Because I really can't recall seeing chicks bearing their genitals in clubs).

No to keep the debate going with you Ninapendamaishi but I think you can agree with me that men's chests are in no way comparable to how women's chests are sexualized in this world, which is why I said dicks as that's the only organ on the male body that's forbidden from public view (an ass is an ass if you ask me and men and women have them).

I love men's chests but a man can run around without a shirt on while a woman most certainly cannot and when women bare their breasts in films it's considered nudity, where as men's are not. Peaches, who's an artist I love, has a song about how men should shake their dicks for their the female gaze, recognizing that men flashing their chests isn't at titillating and until women are allowed the same regard without men oogling our bare chests, there really isn't a comparison to be made.

Good discussion though.

I'm sorry, I just laughed because the video was so ridiculous.

what would a man have to do to a woman to result in a situation where most of society agrees that it was wrong? forget society...PEOPLE WHO READ A FUCKING FEMINIST BLOG

tofutti: lucky for you it wasn't your head getting smacked on the floor or you getting turned into a sex doll in front of a big crowd. With this thread and with the Toby Keith thread, I just have to ask: if you aren't interested in making relevant comments or meaningful discussion, why post?

i think if a man walked up to a woman and randomly killed her on the street people would come on here and say "well....do we KNOW if she may have said something offensive to him?? let's not jump to conclusions!"

Earlier news articles say that she's 14, so even younger.

I think he should be banned from the entire country.

"I think he should be banned from the entire country."

It's a possibility. I heard that actually happened to Snoop Dogg:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6594557.stm

There is nothing racist about saying that what Akon did on that stage is purely cultural. Soca shows usually involve some grinding action on stage. It is usually explicit. And it happens ALL THE TIME. I feel that so much of a big deal is being made because of the girl's father.

I don't personally like what Akon did and it's so easy to judge him or to judge the girl. I believe that in this situation one MUST look at the circumstances of the situation. If Akon did something wrong then the same criticism needs to be brought up against every other Carribean artist, particularly from Trinidad. Oh, and don't forget the female artists who do the same thing.

Oh, my god. That was actually worse than I was even expecting it to be... wow. This is "dancing"? People, to come back to reality for a moment, this is a far cry away from even the "grinding" that goes on in clubs... that was clearly violent and just crazy.

Also, for your infuriated pleasure(?), check out the lovely commentary on a clip of this over at youtube.

between this and the toby keith video, i'm officially creeped out.

This video makes me so damn sad. I watched it first with the sound off (forgotten to plug my speakers in, duh) and then with sound, and it was even worse. The girl had no ecape route, she had no choice in the matter. She had been asked to dance, but if some guy asked me to dance and then did that I think I owuld probably have him arrested. The worst bit is all this hoo ha saying she is "no innocent" and that she was dressed provocativly. I really hate this argument and would like to make a point to all those people out there who make it: A teenage girl can dress like an adult, act like a adult and flirt like a adult BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE HER AN ADULT. Teenagers are still so young, far younger than they are allowed to act. And yes, sometimes young girls do experiment with provocative behavior, language or clothes. But the are MINORS, called as such because it takes a degree of emotional maturity (not just physical) to be able to give INFORMED consent instead of going along with something (like the girl in this vid) because they are unsure how to get out of it.

This video makes me so damn sad. I watched it first with the sound off (forgotten to plug my speakers in, duh) and then with sound, and it was even worse. The girl had no ecape route, she had no choice in the matter. She had been asked to dance, but if some guy asked me to dance and then did that I think I would probably have him arrested. The worst bit is all this hoo ha saying she is "no innocent" and that she was dressed provocativly. I really hate this argument and would like to make a point to all those people out there who make it: A teenage girl can dress like an adult, act like a adult and flirt like a adult BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE HER AN ADULT. Teenagers are still so young, far younger than they are allowed to act. And yes, sometimes young girls do experiment with provocative behavior, language or clothes. But they are MINORS, called as such because it takes a degree of emotional maturity (not just physical) to be able to give INFORMED consent instead of going along with something (like the girl in this vid) because they are unsure how to get out of it.

aniri,

people aren't upset because of the grinding. It's because of the way it was done, and because the girl had no choice in the matter. That definitely DOESN'T happen at every Carribean show. Read some of the comments here and maybe you'll understand better.

What the hell? Some of you people have distorted a girls actions to him being raped?

I guess everyone missed the beginning when she drops to floor and starts raping him (since this is what dancing is now called, as per the posters in this thread).

So even though she initiated the grinding by laying down on the floor, and he participated, she misrepresented her age (he had no clue she was underage, how many here have ID guys before dancing with them), he is at fault?

This is sick and disturbed logic at best.

This is outright hating men if you ask me. He did nothing to instigate it, she wanted to dance that way, yet he assaulted her.

Way to go feministing.

Ohh let me guess, he is guilty in a duke rape case kind of way, selective digestion of the facts?

Look at the entire video on youtube before wantonly trying to attack a male for rape, which never occurred. Jumping down on a floor grinding his crotch with her crotch, and he decides to dance with a supposed adult at an 18+ only club?

The only person at fault is the club owners for letting a 15 year old sneak into a place she didnt belong. The

the video most certainly /does not/ show how the girl got to the floor, and the yelling "oh my god!" does not indicate she was wanting to dance that way, and neither do her comments.

And people never said he was raping her. People said he was "simulating rape" which may be debatable, but is not the same as equating fully-consensual grinding with rape at all.

Yeah well whatever. You watch an edited video (clearly edited since the fade in not on the clip)

I suggest you go to youtube and search the Akon clips which clearly show getting on stage and initiating it.

But convicting someone on an edited tape is very faulty logic.

I guess people here never learn from their (as well as history's) repeated mistakes. sigh...

All the evidence pointing to the duke rape case and it was spun to the point of vomit on this board. Now this.

Even /if/ she initiated dancing, do you honestly think she wanted her head to be smacked on the floor like that and to be tossed around like that? That is not the way people usually dance.

Do /you/ like having your head smacked on the floor and getting thrown around when you dance?

Some people do. Your talking about a girl who is upset her pastor father found out about it.

She now plays the I didnt want it card because of religous pressures.

More probable than him picking out a girl in the crowd, because he had secret operatives steal her ID and let him know she was underage (by dates alone, because she appears like any other average 18 - 21 year old), then he had ninjas slip some date rape drugs to loosen her inhibitions to get up on stage even though she didnt want to.

Once she was on stage, he pointed a gun at her (couldnt see it because it blocked by his back to the camera) and gave her the "grey" rape look disguised by bobbing his head to the music, and then raped her. Her pleas "Ohhh my god" which were clearly screams of pain. Because humans say Ohh my god! to verbalize the pain of rape. Not no, stop, or even so much as oww...

No, I like to know what really happened. You guys can sit around and play "Duke and Dancers" all you want.

Now Scilian,

I'm getting the impression from the way you're arguing that you're one of those people who thinks that once a girl consents to sex, her partner can do whatever he wants to her. I bet you are one of those people who sorta think that (feel free to prove me wrong).

Because guess what, just because she was willing to dance with him at first doesn't give him permission to do whatever. I mean, if she got up there with him, then picked him up threw him around and started smacking his head on the floor in spite of him screaming, well then that would be wrong and she would be the criminal.

I had a friend who was sexually assaulted. She consented to sex, but then he turned violent and wouldn't let her go in spite of her saying "no" and trying to break away. It was painful and traumatic for her, and /very illegal/ under US law.

If you were dancing with some girl, Scilian, and you started doing something that caused her to scream, my hope is you'd let her go. Just in case though, I don't think I'm ever gonna agree to dance with you.

"Some people do."

Some people like having their head smacked on the floor while they're dancing? Really?

Well, as long as you're interested in wanting to "know what really happened" why don't you find some proof that most people, or this girl in particular, want their head smacked on the floor while dancing. Seems like you're interested in very selective kinds of information to me.

All of which, Scilian, of course makes the fact that he lied to them to get them up there meaningless, right? I mean, getting them to do things under false pretenses is a-okay, yeah?

I feel quite comfortable calling that assholish behavior.

Okay... let's see if I can analyze the situation.

1) Lying about the prize being a trip to Africa was wrong. Period.

2) The girl's age is irrelevant to judging this man's actions; there was no reason for him or any of his staff to believe that the girl was under 18.

3) I do not see the girl objecting to the "dance" in the video that was linked from the original post. It's also hard to tell if her head was "smacked on the floor" or not. The "dance" was certainly sexual, crude, and somewhat rough, but, judging from the video alone, I don't see it as a case of criminal sexual assault.

The age of the girl (or boy) is ALWAYS relevant... csc in the states, at least, has a provision that sexual contact with minors is illegal. regardless of whether he knew her age or not.

She now plays the I didnt want it card because of religous pressures.

Oh Jesus Christ on a stick, Scilian. How the FUCK do you know why she's upset?

Boy I sure hope that if some bullshit like this ever happens to you, people don't speculate about your motives for being upset that a man violently THREW YOU AROUND A STAGE without bothering to make sure you were okay with it.

Doug, she COULDN'T object. How do you "object" when you're hanging on for dear life???

there was no reason for him or any of his staff to believe that the girl was under 18.

Oh, right. Because she's the first underage kid ever to get into a club or a bar in the history of the world. It's certainly not the kind of thing that goes on all the time. God knows that experienced performers and club-goers should never be expected to consider the possiblity of such a patently unheard-of thing occurring. I tell you, I'm sure that they are, as am I, shocked, just shocked to hear that anything like that could ever happen.

Yeah, right.

When did the definition of dancing become humping? I read the comments before I watched the video and I expected dancing, grinding and whatnot is somewhat normal for clubs. But what Akon was doing wasn't simply grinding on someone. I was shocked and appalled at what I saw, regardless of the girls age. I most certainly would object to that sort of "dancing". That was disgusting, I wasn't a fan before and I'm definitely not one now.

I didn't know the girl's age when I first watched the video, I just clicked on the link. And I still thought it was disgusting and that he was quite clearly taking advantage of a girl who had no clue what was going on. Watch the video, she's not moving, she's not "playing" or "dancing" back with him, she's lying on the ground, then getting swung up into the air like a rag doll, and then is thrown back onto the ground again while he's dry humping her. If that's dancing in a club you go to, please tell me the name so I never go there myself. It's horrible no matter if she's 15 or 18. I'm 20 and I can tell you if that happened to me, I'd probably be shocked, horrified and hurt just like she was.

The fact that she's 15 makes it worse for her, because to have something like that happen when you're that young is damaging. Perhaps moreso than if it happened to a girl my age. But his actions are reprehensible regardless of age.

"I do not see the girl objecting to the "dance" in the video that was linked from the original post. It's also hard to tell if her head was "smacked on the floor" or not. "

In the video it looks and sounds to me like it was being smacked on the floor. Furthermore, in her comments she /said/ her head was being smacked on the floor. Wouldn't that be a bizarre thing to lie about? Other club-goers were witnesses, after all.

That was intense and scary.

Let's assume that this happened and she was 18, because I think we can all agree that Akon's actions were wrong given that she was 15.

It seems like the point of contention of whether there was a lack of consent. She clearly never said "no" or "stop" or "I don't like this". She said "oh my god" which could be interpreted positively or negatively.

Of course it could simply be that she was frightened rather than excited given that things happened so fast, and that's why she was unable to say no (which does seem like a plausible scenario).

That seems to be the main sticking point about whether this situation qualifies as assault - was there a lack of consent.

There certainly wasn't affirmative consent, which we've been discussing in other threads. She says that she didn't consent. What's the sticking point?

Oh, right. The slut's lying (insert obligatory Duke reference here).

Eugh, I like hip hop music (even the mainstream stuff) but I've always thought Akon was putting out pretty much the crappest stuff on the market (music wise). Now here's just another reason to hate him.

Eugh, I like hip hop music (even the mainstream stuff) but I've always thought Akon was putting out pretty much the crappest stuff on the market (music wise). Now here's just another reason to hate him.

well said, EG, you rock.

Watching this shortly after watching the Richard Gere/Shilpa Shetty video, it occurs to me that the difference is only one of degree.

Gere kisses Shetty on both cheeks, and on her neck, and also bends her over backwards despite her obvious physical resistance to all of the above. She's laughing, and she doesn't strike out at him the way she would if he were, say, a guy who had just jumped out of the bushes. But it's not hard to understand why not: there's an audience; the context is one of cooperation; she's completely taken by surprise; he's bigger; nobody else is acting like anything's wrong.

I find it telling that many commenters, including those who take a strong position against Akon, resort implicitly to a legal paradigm to make their arguments. Was it a sexual assault? Did he have her consent? Was the girl fighting him? Does it matter what her age was or if he knew what her age was?

Despite my legal training, I am not interested in entertaining that line of reasoning at all. Why not? Because, as I think The Law Fairy has pointed out, it's a red herring.

First of all, if anyone thinks that the law of sexual assault and harassment constitutes anything other than a refuge abusers and rapists, think again. We can make legal arguments until we're blue in the face: look how well that's served women thus far. To make legal arguments about men's sexual assault on women is to play with a deck that's deliberately and overwhelmingly stacked against us.

Second -- and this is the part that would be unbelievably obvious if we weren't all trained to parse the details instead of look at the big picture -- both incidents are about men's sense of entitlement to the bodies of women. If she's not screaming like a banshee and fighting like a wild animal, then it's okay to kiss her or dry-hump her or rape her. (Oh, and if she is screaming and fighting? Well, she probably likes rough sex. Or was pretending, because she didn't want people to know that she really liked it. Or was a tease and got what she deserved.)

The point is not whether there was consent; the point is whether there was mutuality. Mutuality is any decent person's definition of what is required when you touch a person sexually.

Neither of these men bothered to ask themselves whether the women wanted or enjoyed or were horrified and disgusted by what was happening. They didn't require the participation of the woman. They just required her to be present as objects for them to act upon physically. They did what they did TO the women, not with them.

There's a word for people who defend that sort of conduct: misogynist.

Incidentally, the news coverage of this incident was nauseating. Reports were of "dirty dancing" or "grinding." The incident was denounced, but it was never clear whether it was because it involved an underage woman, or because it was "obscene." What was clear was that it wasn't being treated as a possible assault.

On a personal (i.e. not talking about legalities at the moment), even if people are hung up on whether or not one needs strongly affirmative consent -- aren't the actions in this video so extreme and potentially injurious (I mean damn, man...) that it should be necessary to be really clear on the issue of consent first? I mean, whether or not one considers it absolutely necessary to have a full conversation about consent before engaging in regular old missionary-style sex, pretty much everyone considers it necessary to fully articulate everything before doing anything that could potentially injure you or humiliate you in front of a huge group of people, right?

kattyben -- didn't see your comment before I posted mine, and I couldn't agree with you more. "Mutuality is any decent person's definition of what is required when you touch a person sexually." Yes. Wow.

Kattyben's point was awesome, and it made me think even more: it's SO true that guys tend to think they are entitled to touching or kissing women's bodies.

I'm in college, and I can't count the number of times a guy has come up behind me and started grinding on me without even asking permission or even frigging ASKING MY NAME. Is it really that hard to introduce oneself?

This also made me think of when Adrien Brody won an Oscar for Best Actor & kissed Halle Berry. She didn't seem to mind, but how often do women randomly throw themselves on men? I can't think of any situations where that's happened.

The fact is, kattyben's right: in our culture, unless a woman is screaming and pushing you away, it's considered all right to touch her. The girl in that video was obviously shocked and horrified at what was going on; I'd bet she felt like it wasn't really happening, or like she was having an out-of-body experience. Which is exactly how many rape victims feel.

After reading this, I'm definitely going to be MUCH more assertive with guys I don't want. I always have been, but now it's even more squarely put in my mind.

Kattyben's point was awesome, and it made me think even more: it's SO true that guys tend to think they are entitled to touching or kissing women's bodies.

I'm in college, and I can't count the number of times a guy has come up behind me and started grinding on me without even asking permission or even frigging ASKING MY NAME. Is it really that hard to introduce oneself?

This also made me think of when Adrien Brody won an Oscar for Best Actor & kissed Halle Berry. She didn't seem to mind, but how often do women randomly throw themselves on men? I can't think of any situations where that's happened.

The fact is, kattyben's right: in our culture, unless a woman is screaming and pushing you away, it's considered all right to touch her. The girl in that video was obviously shocked and horrified at what was going on; I'd bet she felt like it wasn't really happening, or like she was having an out-of-body experience. Which is exactly how many rape victims feel.

After reading this, I'm definitely going to be MUCH more assertive with guys I don't want. I always have been, but now it's even more squarely put in my mind.

it's SO true that guys tend to think they are entitled to touching or kissing women's bodies.

It is true. The other day, I was walking down the street and some guy (who smelled bad, I might add) came up behind me and put his arms around me. It was very weird--I just froze, assuming that it had been a mistake, some guy not looking where he was going, bumping into me and putting his arms out and kind of around to steady himself, and waited for him to back up and start apologizing. And he didn't! He just stood there, arms around me! What the fuck, I ask you, was that supposed to be?

Finally I snapped out of out and threw one of his arms off me and stepped away but it took me forever. I can totally see how women get abducted because of how long it took me to process what was happening.

Dude never even apologized.

This is monstrous. A hip-hop singer can lure a young woman onstage with the promise of a trip to Africa, simulate RAPING her instead, and because she's fifteen years old people just say that SHE'S the liar and SHE'S at fault? I know there are misogynists about, but good God!

EG, Oh My God.

Last night a female friend and I went out for drinks and dinner. We ended up at a hotel bar in Santa Monica -- nice, lounge-y place. We got a couple glasses of wine and sat down on a comfy couch close to the bar. After a few minutes, a guy sits down near us and starts talking. My friend is much friendlier/more outgoing than I am, and I was in a good mood anyway, so we chatted with him for bit. Then he decides to move over to the couch and sit in between us and put his arms around us. Um??

Like you, I froze. I just plain didn't know what to do. I think it was more a moment of like, he should fucking KNOW better. I shouldn't have to TELL him not to touch me. So I kept my hackles up, kept my body tense, and inched away from his as much as I could (he still did not take the hint). A couple other guys we'd been talking to earlier came and sat near us, and I think the guy thought they were our boyfriends, because he left pretty quickly after that.

Which fucking pisses me off even MORE. It shouldn't make a difference whether or not I have a boyfriend. You Don't Get To Touch Me. Fucking asshole didn't care until he thought we "belonged" to someone else.

Fuck, now I need some scotch to drunk off the Angry.

Good comment, Genny.

Watch the video, she's not moving, she's not "playing" or "dancing" back with him, she's lying on the ground, then getting swung up into the air like a rag doll, and then is thrown back onto the ground again while he's dry humping her.

Disturbing video. Speaking of ragdolls, the OC and Chicago gang rape cases had videos of girls who looked like ragdolls. The friend who turned in the video said she thought they were raping a corpse. Nonetheless, it took two trials to convict the OC men and the Chicago rapists got off scotfree because she refused to watch the video of her own gang rape.

"It shouldn't make a difference whether or not I have a boyfriend. You Don't Get To Touch Me."

Oh my god this is SO TRUE. I worked in a club and would always take the late night train home. There were always guys trying to talk me into going on dates with them. Not simply asking, mind you, freaking arguing with me when I tried to reject them. That has happened so many times to me with random guys. And the only thing that seems to get them to back off is if they think I have a boyfriend. Pisses me off SO MUCH.

Ninapendamaishi: I've been posting on here for awhile now, and I have made, what you would call, "relevant comments", but you've never responded to those. That's probably because I end up repeating what most people here say.

The video is disgusting and the fact that the girl is underage makes it even worse. I do think that he probably assumed that she was older, which does happen. People always assume I'm older because I look more mature for my age. However, the video shows more than just "grinding", it shows a man entertaining a crowd by making it look like he can use women.

And I laughed because he looked like an idiot. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it was my natural way to react.

There, is that relevant enough for you?

:)

sorry... I guess your comment came off wrong to me, after some posters defending Akon and saying it wasn't that big a deal and all.

Ugh.

This just brings back gross memories of the one time I went to a disgusting dance club in my city when I was 16 or 17. The dancefloor was packd and I was grooving to the usual bump-n-grind flow. But then this guy got too close for comfort and actually grabbed my breasts, grabbed my face and forced his tongue down my throat while his buddy happily grinded me from behind.

At that time it was before my first "official" kiss from an actual boyfriend who cared for me. I felt so violated and shocked that any man (he was either 21 or had a friend w/access to booze cuz he reeked of alcohol) felt okay to grab my breasts and face in that way.

Ugh. I immediately shoved him away and left the dance floor *and* the club -- even though my friends complained about the decision since they were having a great time. I was the driver so they did not have a choice.

I became aware of my own sexuality and its power that evening. Sorry to say that I used and abused it after that night for years until I realized that any "real" man would want me not only for my hot body but also because I can beat them at chess or a video game.

I think Akon should know better...to say the very least. Men *know* when they are violating a young woman in some way, especially an underage young woman. I experienced it over and over.

That young woman may feel empowered and awesome right now because she is just opening up her sexuality. I don't know, I'm projecting myself at 15 and I felt a lot different at the time.

Yet I still feel grossed out even if she was 18. I just don't think it is necessry. I don't know...I've always been really torn on hip hop/rap. But I don't think that just because it's hip hop Akon gets a free pass.

Overall it leaves a horrible taste in my mouth and a creepy shiver on my spine that I can't shake.

This has really made me realise how much I just tolerate men in clubs who can't keep their hands to themselves. I guess I just don't like conflict, but from now on I'm going tell them that what they are doing is *not* on.

http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/

I know Feministing has linked to/been linked by Holla Back NYC before (I think that's how I originally found this site - and now I check it religiously), but a lot of the stories about unwanted touching sound exactly what the site's about.

My sister was harassed on the bus this weekend by some guy repeatedly saying "You're a nice piece of ass. Wanna do me?" She was on the phone with my mother so she could ignore her, and in her words, she "didn't want to provoke him" by telling him to shut the hell up. I'm sending her the HollaBack link so she gets the courage next time to put that douchebag in his place.

As an international spin on the confrontation of casual sexual harassment, Ms. Magazine did a story in their "global" section in the recent issue, called "Don't 'Tease' These Eves." It was about protest actions that feminists are staging in India, encouraging women to stand up to men who harass them on the street. I looked at the Ms. site, but they don't have an online version of the article :(. Be sure to check out the print copy!

Ninapendamaishi - you wrote in response to some of my quotes:

"Actually, being touched sexually in a way you don't want is always criminal, at least in the United Stats."

--- I am well aware of this having been a victim of it myself. Also, part of my point is that they WEREN'T in the US - and even so, being touched when you don't want to be is a human right. So I'm not sure why you made this comment unless you know for sure she didn't want to participate when I - not having super human powers - couldn't tell.

---In response to seeing this kind of thing in adult night clubs - your response:

"Really? I /worked/ in a night-club and I never saw a man forcibly dry-humping a woman. If I had seen something like a man doing that or so much as repeatedly making rude comments, my job as a bouncer would have been to kick his ass out on the street..."

---Obviously we attend different sorts of night clubs this sort and worse goes on at nightclubs. Also if you watch the video - unless all of you have some other video information to go on - the girl looks like she's laying on the stage at the beginning with her legs spread and feet up waiting for him to start - that may not be the case but I didn't see anybody shove her there - at the beginning she seems to be laying there waiting for the dance to begin. I don't see her struggle or flip or try to crawl away or anybody holding her down. Then you hear somebody - SOMEBODY, I CAN'T TELL WHO - saying something like "oh my god" and then make a laughing sound and sort of a "aaahhhhh" yell or somethng - I don't hear screams of stop or quit and when he picks her up she puts her arms around him and leans into him.

I AM IN NO WAY SAYING SHE DESERVED TO BE MISTREATED OR TOUCHED IF SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BE TOUCHED. What I am saying is that she may have seemed more willing to him and the others there and also the folks may have had NO IDEA she was 15.

Those things MATTER when determining if his actions were criminal or simply piggish and macho and rather gross.

Then your wrap up was:

"Bottom line is, doesn't matter how promiscuous you are, 18 or 15, he was the one taking control, no vice versa. If she didn't want it (and from both the video and her comments it appears she didn't) it's both disgusting AND criminal."

--- Thanks for the "bottom line" - we agree on that and I just restated it all. As far as your "she didn't want it" - I don't agree with you - I don't think it is obvious. I think there IS a question as to whether or not she wanted to be there - for starters she snuck in then joined the dance contest then APPEARED to be laying on the floor waiting for him to do his dance moves. That is all I can glean from this video and the tiny snippet of info from the article. I think that it's easy to sit and watch a video snippet and make judgment calls when you weren't there and you have had no chance to evaluate the surrounding circumstances.

One has to ask themselves why she would get up on the stage and be in the dance contest and lay there if she didn't want on some level to participate.

Once it got out of hand and if she said stop - he should have stopped right away. No doubt about that. If he had found out her age he should have stopped even if she wanted to still participate - no doubt for me on that either.

But I think that when women start banding together and screaming serious accusations at a person, they'd better be damned sure of the circumstances.

If they find evidence of him doing this with underage girls and if they find evidence that she asked him to stop or witnesses who were there for the whole event who say she was scared and it was obvious she wanted to stop - then I think that he should be held accountable.

Also - if she felt somehow intimidated into the situation by somebody - that also should be investigated. Simply complying with the dance doesn't mean she wanted to do it - so if she said no or "I'm 15" or please stop or anything at some point then it's criminal as far as I'm concerned - but in that snippet I didn't hear that, did you? Please tell me at which part so I can listen for it because I've watched it five times and can't find it.

So I am not going to sit here and convict him on that snippet of video when I can't even tell she's 15 and I didn't hear he say stop and I can't even tell if it's HER yelling on the video or the person recording the video. I can barely see the girls face let alone tell what and if she's saying something.

I'm not going to stand on my feminist high horse and bash people with the girl power stick when I can't tell if she was being "violated" or not by that snippet of video.

Personally I think the most compelling question is what made this girl want to go to this concert - why did she join the contest - who was supposed to be watching her and keeping tabs with where she is that night and that the event took place in an ADULT CLUB - the performer (by the way, I never heard of this guy, so I don't care who he is) KNEW he was performing at an adult establishment - don't you think it's fair for him to assume the patrons were of legal age?