Jeebus! That's a lot of money. I guess it's good I was born an American citizen as I'd never be able drop that kind of cash on citizenship while doing crazy things like eating, wearing clothes, sleeping under a roof as opposed to a bridge, etc.

What a crock of shit. Seriously, who voted for Bush the second time? I can find folks who will admit to doing it the first time, but no one who will admit to voting for him the second go round. Who voted for him? People obviously did and they should, perhaps, also have to pay huge fines in order to retain their citizenship. Certainly there is a special fine for being stupid, right?

Can we avoid using the right wing's anti-immigration language?

I know even the NYTimes does it...but no person should ever be considered illegal.

The worst is when you hear undocumented immigrants referring to themselves as illegal--talk about internalized hatred and dehumanization.

That reminds me of this comic I saw last night:

http://www.xckd.com/c84.html

And radicaldoula, I've also been trying to stop saying "illegal" when referring to undocumented immigrants.

i have a slightly unique perspective on the immigration proccess, since my husband has gone through it. he's Australian-- so he's from a country that we're quite friendly with. we got a fiance visa-- supposedly the easiest way to get into the country and obtain permenant resident status. only it took us 6 months before he was allowed to come here, almost 8 months after he got here before he could get his Green Card and legally work, and cost well over $1000 just to file all of the paperwork. we're in our early twenties, so we don't have a lot of money, and it definitely put a strain on our relationship. we're going to have to spend a lot of money on getting the Green Card renewed until he is able to become a citizen-- if he chooses to do so.

so i look at our experience and know that people who act like legal immigration is easy and cry BULLSHIT. we had savings, my family supported us, and we both speak english. people who come to america as illegal immigrants to work below minimum are not going to have anywhere near that kind of money, time or resources. this country is incredibly expensive and time-consuming to get into. there are so many illegal aliens because they don't have legal options.

You're absolutely right; I actually thought about that last night when I was writing the post and totally forgot to change the language. Thanks for pointing it out,change made.

doublefantasy, this is strictly my own ignorance, but i thought when you married an american citizen you were somehow granted an automatic citizenship or at least legal residency? is that incorrect or is your husband just going through different channels? if marriage does not guarantee citizenship (or at least legal residency status), why do people marry for greencards or whatnot? as i said, just my own ignorance because i haven't had to go through the process myself, but i am definitely interested in learning more about it.

it grants you a green card . . . after you fill out all the paperwork, pay all the fees and if they approve you. i actually met a couple after this was all over who had theirs denied and had to apply a second time. and they can deny it for really stupid reasons, like making a simple mistake on the forms, and not refund your money. it doesn't grant you citizenship at all-- you have to wait either five or ten years (i always forget which it is. i really ought to know) after having the green card to apply. and then there's another whole set of fees.

basically, the movies lie. they make it seem a million times easier than it is. and again, our experience, from what we here, is quite a mild one. a lot of other people go through much, much worse.

oh, and sorry about my use of the word "illegal." i'd never really heard anyone express the problem with the term until now . . . i'll keep it in mind.

thank you doublefantasy. as i said, that was all my own ignorance. i think i probably did have some sort of tainted-by-movies mindset.

trust me-- most people do! :)

It is indeed a lot more complex than people think, and not at all like the movies. Marriage to an American doesn't equal instant US citizenship for the foreigner. I have a friend from UK who married an American and moved here years ago, but they couldn't afford to pay her green card fees every year, so they let them lapse. As a result, she's no closer to becoming a US citizen now than she was 5 years ago, despite being married to an American and living in the US for the entire duration.

Somewhat OT: She also told me that at her most recent immigration interview she was asked if she was a prostitute. I imagine this is a standard question, aimed at cutting down on mail-order bride/sexual slavery scenarios, probably--but I still can't help wondering if they ask the male applicants that question. Somehow I doubt it.

Someone that entered this country illegally should have it tougher than someone that entered this country legally. If you reward bad behavior you invite further bad behavior.

Think the legal procedure moves too slow? Its a government agency, of course it will move at a snail's pace.

Dave -- the government's inefficient, so we should expect it to be inefficient? How about we pressure for change.

I know SO MANY people who've dealt with the American govt losing their paperwork, and having to apply all over again. It's not easy, and it keeps getting harder.

And this new program? In Canada, they used to call it the "Head Tax."

I know SO MANY people who've dealt with the American govt losing their paperwork, and having to apply all over again. It's not easy, and it keeps getting harder.

And this new program? In Canada, they used to call it the "Head Tax."

I don't see the problem with using "illegal." They are in this country illegally, we should refer to it as such. Using "undocumented" just makes it seem like they lost a couple of forms on the way here and tries to mitigate the fact that laws were broken.

I have to say that this is one of two conservative bones in my body. As someone who has had to go through all the crap of legal channels in order to get a green card, and will have to go through even more to get citizenship, I have no sympathy for those who sneak across the border then refuse to learn basic English, demand driver licenses (I'm from California, it was (is?) a giant issue there), amnesty, and all of the benefits of being in the US legally.

How about we make an effort to work with Mexico and better its economy, so these people don't feel like they have to flee to the United States?

Shyva, doesn't the fact that you went through the hideous immigration process make you have any sympathy for the people who are dirt poor and willing to leave their children behind to make sure that they don't starve to death? i agree whole heartedly that we need to work with Mexico and improve the Mexican economy. but i don't see how sending these people back home or throwing them in jail or fining them when they can't pay will fix anything.

i posted my story of getting my husband's green card further up the thread, so i do know what the process is like. unless you are a refugee (you didn't say, so i assume that you aren't, but correct me if i'm wrong) i imagine that you, like my husband and i, are far more fortunate than a lot of the "illegals" who can't afford three meals a day. you would have to be if you could afford a green card.

How about we make an effort to work with Mexico and better its economy, so these people don't feel like they have to flee to the United States?

Or alternatively, we could destroy our own economy to make the US less appealing to foreigners.
I've begun to suspect that's the plan our current administration has decided to run with.

It is so great the feminist bloggers are starting to addres this issue - thank you! One note: current proposals that require immigrants to pay thousands of dollars in fines and fulfill several other requirements to obtain legal status (so that one day, they MAY be able to obtain residence or citizenship) is not amnesty. Undocumented immigrants will have a lot more more hoops to jump through than those who are in legal status. I think it's really important that this distinction is made whenever these proposals for legalization are discussed, because "amnesty" implies that people are getting off easy (and that is what the anti-immigrant movement wants us to think). As you point out in your post, paying those fines will be anything but easy - but it does provide an opportunity for people who have families here and who are an integral part of our society and economy to safely stay in the United States. It's a long and winding pathway to citizenship, with all of the obstacles doublefantasy describes and more. But it is a pathway.

I think that any discussion of "illegal" immigration is barely veiled racism. Not that everyone who uses the term "illegal" is consciously racist, but the regulation of entry into this country has always been about keeping "undesireable" ethnic groups out. The process of acquiring immigration papers is long and expensive, and I don't envy anyone who has to do it, but that's a reason to agitate for a more sane entry policy, not a reason to punish people who were not able to complete that process.

I think that this "amnesty" amounts to a bar against reentry--who will be able to pay the fine? Anyone who can would have come in by the official route in the first place, unless he or she had a criminal record or some other absolute bar to eligibility for a green card or work visa. This is punishment disguised as a favor, so that Bush can pretend to be a friend to immigrants while pleasing his anti-immigrant, racist political base.

"I think that any discussion of 'illegal' immigration is barely veiled racism."

...then the veil falls off when the subject of illegal immigration from Ireland comes up and some of the same people who call Mexicans lazy job-stealers start going on and on about redheads with cute butts...

This issue of Amnesty is a very touchy topic to most people, me included. I think it is crazy that people would have to pay that much to be a citizen of the United States, weren't we founded on the idea of FREEDOM?!?!? And as for the people who have to deal with trying to pay this, they cannot afford. Just like one of the quotes said in the article, she sends $200 a month back home to help her family. I think these issues goes along with all of the globalization that is happen around the world. I just want to say I am sorry that people have to pay that much for becoming a U.S. citizen, SORRY to the people it affects!!

This issue of Amnesty is a very touchy topic to most people, me included. I think it is crazy that people would have to pay that much to be a citizen of the United States, weren't we founded on the idea of FREEDOM?!?!? And as for the people who have to deal with trying to pay this, they cannot afford. Just like one of the quotes said in the article, she sends $200 a month back home to help her family. I think these issues goes along with all of the globalization that is happen around the world. I just want to say I am sorry that people have to pay that much for becoming a U.S. citizen, SORRY to the people it affects!!

Please don't throw the freedom card around. Yes, freedom is nice in theory, but so is communism. Doesn't mean it works perfectly in practice. This is a country of finite resources and if everyone who wanted to come here just walked on over, there would be even bigger problems than there already are. Again, instead of everyone coming over here for the wonderful freedom, how about all other countries get some freedom too?

Shyva, doesn't the fact that you went through the hideous immigration process make you have any sympathy for the people who are dirt poor and willing to leave their children behind to make sure that they don't starve to death?
No. I'm in a bad mood, and not feeling particularly sympathetic towards anyone, especially those that fuel gang membership, holler inappropriate things at me when I walk down the street and cause hospitals into bankruptcy.

I'm all for sane entry policy and for fixing underlying problems that causes people to flee their countries.

especially those that fuel gang membership, holler inappropriate things at me when I walk down the street and cause hospitals into bankruptcy.

Right. Because native-born Americans never sexually harrass women on the street (and no undocumented immigrants are women, of course). Or join street gangs. Or are unable to pay for health care because this country, for all its many positive aspects, can't get it together to develop a workable health-care system.

Goodness knows, undocumented immigrants never contribute anything positive to this country, like labor that the agricultural industry would crash without.

oh. okay shyva, i wasn't aware that this was a racism issue. it usually is, i find, with this topic, but i was giving you the benefit of the doubt. please excuse me for trying to engage you in an actual discussion.

i don't talk to racists. i spend enough time around them at my job. but if anyone else would like to engage in a rational conversation about the subject, that would be nice.

I keep pointing out to people that froth at the mouth about Mexican immigrants stealing american jobs, ruining the economy and over running our country with dirty uneducated children that about 100-150 years ago the same things were said about members of my own family. I'm ancestrally Irish and German, both immigrant groups that experienced a lot of predjudice in our nation's history, and both groups that are fully integrated into society now. I'm not saying the situation is ideal, but I believe that America is strong enough to face this challenge and find a solution that is both affordable and sensible. Maybe not under this administration, but I can hope.

I've not met many immigrants who absolutely refuse to learn or attempt to learn english while here. I live in Miami and there is a language barrier sometimes if you don't know spanish, but most spanish speaking people I've met do speak some english even if they're not fully bilingual. And frankly, I have no problem with learning spanish to make my own life easier.

Thanks to doublefantasy for sharing your experiences with the immigration system. My mother worked at NIH when I was younger and there were so many foreign scientists there that a special office was in charge of all the green card/immigration paperwork. It's not easy, and I do have a lot of respect and admiration for people who go through the process to become an American.

"I'm not saying the situation is ideal, but I believe that America is strong enough to face this challenge and find a solution that is both affordable and sensible."

Secure the border and begin a guest worker program.

"I think that any discussion of "illegal" immigration is barely veiled racism."

Sigh. I knew this would come up eventually. I could sit here and type out examples of how I am not racist, but it wouldn't matter much. Once you have thrown that accusation, there isn't much anyone can do to side against your opinion or else risk being labeled a racist. Please, unless you have some strong evidence, refrain from using labels like that. This goes for similar labels like xenophobe, homophobe, sexist and bigot.

"Right. Because native-born Americans never sexually harrass women on the street (and no undocumented immigrants are women, of course). Or join street gangs. Or are unable to pay for health care because this country, for all its many positive aspects, can't get it together to develop a workable health-care system."

True, there are gangs of every race in the US. However, the worst in the nation is MS13, mostly made up of illegal latino immigrants.

Ugh, I was going to go into the health care thing, but that would be opening a large can of worms and begin to stray off subject.

Also, if the government had a handle on the immigrants that came in to this country, then perhaps diseases like TB wouldn't be making a comeback.

I am not saying to shut down the borders completely. I am saying that the current chaos on the borders are unacceptable.

I do have a bit of a personal stake in this. My wife and I are working on adopting a child from another country. The paperwork and footwork on this is long, expensive and metally exhausting. We are doing everything legally.

"Right. Because native-born Americans never sexually harass women on the street"
I go off of my experiences, and in my area, I've exclusively been yelled and whistled at by Latino yard workers.

"Or join street gangs."
Again, in my city, two of the major gangs are predominately, if not exclusively, hispanic.

"Or are unable to pay for health care because this country, for all its many positive aspects, can't get it together to develop a workable health-care system."
Even if the US develops a workable health-care system, I don't see that would change anything when illegal immigrants get treated in emergency rooms and are unable to pay for that treatment. At the end of the day, doctors and treatment costs money, no matter how efficient it all is.

okay shyva, i wasn't aware that this was a racism issue.Um, because it isn't? If people were illegally crossing the Canadian border in droves into the United States, I would feel the exact same way. I feel exactly the same about illegal immigration from Asia, and hell, Europe. I find that people who throw cries of racism around are those who can't argue the issue rationally. Of course, it's easier to just label whoever disagrees with you as a racist and go on with your day. So much for your "rational discussion."

As I've stated before, reforming and streamlining the immigration application process is good, letting anyone who wants to congregate here is not. It's no way to fix the problems of their originating countries.

I'm on shyva's side. I fully agree. Illegal immigration supports sex slavery, drug violence, sweatshops, ect. Keeping the border open, fuels the corruption, and crime in both Mexico, and abroad.
Drug cartels are a major oppressor in the world, and I find it unfair to treat illegal immigrants better than the legal ones. If shyva feels it is unfair, then why jump on her about it. If you went through the legal process to become a citizen, all the hoops, and
had to indure the sexual harrassment of people that shouldn't even be there, then you'd feel the same way.

I'm on shyva's side. I fully agree. Illegal immigration supports sex slavery, drug violence, sweatshops, ect. Keeping the border open, fuels the corruption, and crime in both Mexico, and abroad.
Drug cartels are a major oppressor in the world, and I find it unfair to treat illegal immigrants better than the legal ones. If shyva feels it is unfair, then why jump on her about it. If you went through the legal process to become a citizen, all the hoops, and
had to indure the sexual harrassment of people that shouldn't even be there, then you'd feel the same way.