Re: Learning to Love Chocolate--In case you haven't already seen it, Dan Savage pretty much just did two columns on that book. One where he presented the book and its claims and drew some conclusions from it.. and a second column of responses from women with high libidos who complained about the conclusions of the book. Haven't read it yet.. but it might be worth a gander...

Dan Savage discusses Sewell's book (albeit from a review)and there was quite a response from women who heartily disagree with the assumption that women have low libidos.

Tricstmr - you beat me, but there are the links for the columns!

Ugh, that book. Yet another worthless contribution from an egocentric "If it's true for me, it must be true for everyone" idiot.

Just what we needed!

I used to suffer from low libido. Turns out I just hated being guilted into having sex with my (ex)boyfriend! And after I dumped him, my "problem" was solved.

You know, little tiny cultural factors like your sexual partner behaving like a child (and since paedophilia's a major turn-off for me, I find I don't really want to have sex with adults I have to take care of as though they were children). Or just outright being an asshole somewhere on the spectrum between obnoxious and abusive. Somehow, it's a mood-killer when you're shuttling back and forth between taking care of everything and being treated like dirt. Call me crazy.

I am so tired of hearing biologically essentialist swill about how my sex drive is lower than men's when I have rarely had a male partner whose drive matched mine. Tiresome.

I was so mad at Dan Savage about that article. And I wonder about the health effects of this patch.

Me too, Theriomorph.

I had a high libido before I got married. After we moved in together and then got married, it was very low. I thought, "God, I'm one of those women everyone jokes about."

Then I left my husband (who was emotionally and occasionally physically abusive). Then I found a boyfriend who relishes me sexually in a way I've never seen. And suddenly my libido is higher than it's ever been.

Not that I'm saying all men with low-libido wives are assholes to blame for all things. I'm just saying that low self-esteem, lack of esteem for the partner, lack of proper rest, diet, or exercise, and all number of other things are part of the package. Some people (not just women, but people) do have naturally lower libidos, but that's not all there is to it.

Simplistically shrugging your shoulders and trilling, "Women have low libidos, oh well!" doesn't really help anyone, men or women.

Re-read my comment and realized I made it sound like my relationship is all sex. It's not. He relishes me in all ways, which is just as good for our sex life as the other bits.

Low sex drive is not always an environmental or a psychological factor. I am in the best relationship that a woman could have, I've had no sexual trauma, depression, drug use or any other reason that would cause a low libido, but my sex drive is low. It is what it is. And if I were on my own in this world I would never give it a second thought. It does not make me feel defective or that there is anything wrong with me.

However, I do choose to share my life with a fantastic person and it is a human relationship, so sex is part of that deal. I want to love him completely. But his sex drive is admittedly much higher than mine. And as I am not a selfish person and consider his wish to share intimacy in the most beneficial ways for him as highly as I consider my own, I would welcome the opportunity to have an artificially increased sex drive for result of mutual pleasure.

My only regret is that they will only prescribe it to menopausal women! At the age of 28 that is very far away, but I am curious to partake in the full realm of human experience which includes enjoyment of sexual activity.

I would love to have the choice to enhance myself in this manner. I know this argument is fallacious in that it is my experience only, but to me the opportunity to have a choice in the matter is outstanding.

I am 43 and had never had much of a sex drive. I have finally found a man with a low sex drive as well and we are very happy! I really never cared if I would have sex again, it just has never been a desire even though I'm a very happy and together person...

thank you, divina! i'm in the same situation and i'm sick of feeling like someone is to blame. it's really too bad that it seems like this is a common phenomenon, but it can't be talked about without making sweeping statements about the "nature" of men and women, which makes me shy away from the discussion altogether. which isn't helpful for putting my mind at ease/thinking of solutions.

For women with low sex drives and no obvious external causes, I understand that it's important to cast it in a light of something that occurs naturally, that you're not just going to wake up one day and LOVE sex because you found the right man/woman/lubricant/vibrator.

On the other hand, I think it's very important to talk about low libido or mismatched libido between sex partners as gender neutral. That way those with high libido aren't "nymphos" and those with low can deal with it as they feel appropriate (by artificially increagin it or finding a partner with matching drive) without saying "oh well, I'm a woman" and leaving it at that.

Not sure how I feel about the patch, but I'm glad that for now it's being prescribed for women with artificially decreased libidos and not marketed as a way to turn your wife in to the sexbot you've always wished for.

Sweeping statements about the 'nature' of men and women is exactly the problem, I think. Libido varies widely by individual according to chemistry and environment and history - biological sex is not the determinant. To medicalize a low libido (or a high one), to pathologize choice, to assign generalized values or 'realities' about all women or all men, or to fail to offer medical assistance to those who wish it is unhelpful at best and hugely destructive at worst.

I hope the patch is great for people who want it. I'm just jumpy about hormonal interventions, given the various serious health effects to many people of the ones we've tried before.

I once had a roommate who had a rather low sex drive--according to his girlfriend, who found it aggravating, because she felt like she was always nagging him for sex.

It goes both ways, and it's not gender specific.

Exactly, Vervain. I was trying to remain outside the realm of the personal, but I have been mismatched in the non-stereotypical direction. It' was awkward when his idiot friends or something on tv makes jokes about the woman withholding or being less interested in sex, because it emasculated him and made me feel like a nymphomaniac freak. When both of us were totally within a healthy range, and both our libidos honestly varied with many factors that had nothing to do with our biological sex. Not to mention that quality was much more important than frequency for both of us.

So yay for (safe) medical options for changing one's sex drive, if that is what one wants. Boo to the assumption that women have lower libido than men, or need intervention to enjoy sex (frequently or in general).

I will say thank god this is being addressed in any way. My mother has a friend who was very religious, stayed a virgin till she was married, had her two kids and just sent the second one off to college and was looking forward to the time she and her husband would have together, but she went through menopause in her mid-40s and has no sex drive. And she's actively angry about it.

It's a little strange that they're being so narrow with the prescription for this when Viagra, Cialis and any other drugs that are supposed to treat erectile dysfunction seem to be handed out like candy. But I guess it's to help with the problem someone mentioned up thread of men pressuring women to get this patch when there's no biological problem. Still, I hope women who need it who aren't menopausal can have access to it eventually.

Sometimes generalizations are correct. I believe that on average, women have lower libidos than men, and that research would bear this out. But just like any kind of average measure, there are going to be many individuals on either end who don't conform to the average.

What I really resent, though, is the puerile view (espoused most notably by Dan Savage) that a couple *must* have matching sex drives in order to have a successful relationship, and that the onus is on the person with the lower drive to match the person with the higher drive. And that the person with the higher drive is justified in cheating in order to "get his/her needs met" if the other does not comply. Bleh.

And then there's also the reigning cultural ethos that sexiness is something we should all aspire to, and that it's almost a moral failing not to want enough sex because "sex is so important." While I don't think we should go back to the olden days, it might be a healthier (and less abominably self-centered) society if we didn't send out the message that "if you are at all sexually deprived you are suffering a great burden." It's so...juvenile, the idea that you're always entitled to the fulfillment of your desires.

Ugh, what the hell is this?

"Loh's lesbian friends are livin' the dream: 'Teri and Pat have had a special Monday-night ritual. They order an extra-large cheese pizza,' writes Loh. While they wait for their pizza, 'they settle in on the couch with large twin bags of Doritos. Each chip is dipped first in cream cheese and then in salsa. Cream cheese, salsa. Cream cheese, salsa. . . . The Doritos are finished to the last crumb, and then, upon arrival, the pizza as well.' Teri and Pat are 50 pounds overweight and suffer from 'lesbian bed death,' but for them, pizza-and-Doritos night is 'better than sex.' "

Oh, I don't even have words. What the fuck, Loh. I don't even know where to begin with all the wrong things this says about women and lesbians.

"I once had a roommate who had a rather low sex drive--according to his girlfriend, who found it aggravating, because she felt like she was always nagging him for sex.

It goes both ways, and it's not gender specific."

This is true; the phenomenon of unequal sex drives happens between lesbians, too, and so all the uncomfortable guilt and and insecurities that result from it. I think the basis of all of this is the stigmatization of unequal sex drives within any relationships, with the roles set firmly in a particular set of stereotypes.

rilee's comment reminded me how much that excerpt about the lesbian couple pissed me off; I was horrified and disgusted, too. How many stereotypes about women and/or lesbians can one person reinforce in one paragraph?
Let's count them (with tongue firmly in cheek):
1) Lesbians become lesbians by necessity, because they are to fat/ugly/butch to attract a man.
2) Lesbians don't actually have sex. How can they; there's no penis to insert anywhere?!?
3) Women don't actually enjoy sex. They prefer indulgent foods.
Wow, three. In as many sentences. Nice.

Not to mention the visual image she creates with that paragraph, which is pretty repulsive. Two women devouring "every last crumb" of "twin bags of Doritos", plus an entire "extra-large pizza"? Why not go all the way and compare them to a couple of pigs with their snouts in a trough while you're at it? UGH.

The more I hear about this woman and her book, the more I want to slap her.

Vervain, don't forget:

4.) Women are only interested in their appearance insofar as they are interested in pleasing men. If a woman appears to have made an effort to adhere to beauty standards, she is doing so only to attract men. A woman who has no interest in attracting men has no reason to make certain choices about her appearance.

I knew I forgot something! Good catch.