I'm very hostile to the idea of restricting what students can say short of direct threats to other students. But I guess if the context of a comment is clearly that a student is, without any hint of jest, trying to identify someone as gay (with the accompanying social stigma), it might be legitimate to issue penalties.

Still, I'm not sure if bullies are always going to be so accommodating as to make their intent very obvious. The difficulty of distinguishing these types of cases is probably reason enough to err on the side of free speech.

The "case-by-case basis" policy may be rooted in legitimate First Amendment concerns. The Supreme Court has said that a public school can only restrict the speech of its students when that speech would be disruptive. This does paint schools into a bit of a corner, because they may be forced to get up in court and prove that the student's speech was made in a context that was sufficiently disruptive to warrant a First Amendment exception.

Personally, I believe a student saying "that's so gay" as an insult is akin to saying "that's so black" or "that's so Jew," but school districts might be afraid that conservative judges will see it differently.

I'm very hostile to the idea of restricting what students can say short of direct threats to other students. But I guess if the context of a comment is clearly that a student is, without any hint of jest, trying to identify someone as gay (with the accompanying social stigma), it might be legitimate to issue penalties.

Still, I'm not sure if bullies are always going to be so accommodating as to make their intent very obvious. The difficulty of distinguishing these types of cases is probably reason enough to err on the side of free speech.

You know, I kind of think the free speech issue here is bullshit. Kids in school have never been able to exercise complete freedom of speech--for one thing, they have to raise their hands and wait to be called upon. Insulting the teacher is also out, and insulting one another in front of the teacher is usually a bad idea. Swearing in front of the teacher? Also frowned upon. The school also has a duty, as far as I'm concerned, to protect its students from harrassment, and a culture in which "gay" is code for stupid, useless, etc. creates a hostile environment for kids who are actually gay.

I recall someone saying in a comment (on Pandagon, I think) at some point recently that they suggested to some students prone to saying "that's so gay" that they try using "that's so Negro" instead--which of course helped to drive home the point why "that's so gay" is inappropriate even if it's not directed at a person, as long as it's used disparagingly. Great idea (for kids and adults) in my opinion.

As for the girl whose parents sued, I do kind of wonder if her classmates who were mocking her for being a Mormon were also disciplined for what they said, as that would be fair. Better to send the message that no one should be made fun of for belonging to a group, rather than just making the word "gay" verboten.

UK seems to have the right idea on how to handle this. Of course the parents who are striving to raise their children to be intolerant homophobes are annoyed by the schools sabotaging all their hard work, but I suppose that's a given.
I liked this quote:
"The more you normalise homosexuality, and the more kids see images of homosexual relationships from schoolbooks and authority figures the more kids think any crushes they have on children of the same sex - which is quite normal at 11 years old - are valid."

Some amusing premises in there. First off, the idea that if something offends you, the world or the government has some obligation to ensure that you don't have to see it. If only! *smirk*
Second, has anyone ever heard of children around the age of 11 having crushes on their same-sex friends? Because for something that's "quite normal" I've never heard of it...maybe it's a UK thing?

They should suspend kids for using the word "gay" like that. It's a slur.

It's not about freaking free speech, it's about.. oh i dont know, not using hate speech maybe? Schools would never tolerate racial slurs, so homosexual ones shouldn't be tolerated either.

They should suspend kids for using the word "gay" like that. It's a slur.

It's not about freaking free speech, it's about.. oh i dont know, not using hate speech maybe? Schools would never tolerate racial slurs, so homosexual ones shouldn't be tolerated either.

I think it's perfectly conceivable--if not quite consistent--to use the expression "That's so gay" without attaching any negative associations to actually being gay. In fact, I bet many, many supporters of gay rights do this all the time. So again: How do you distinguish kids who use the term spitefully from kids who don't?

Verv, some of my gay friends have expressed that they developed an awareness of their sexual orientation at VERY young ages. Having a same-sex crush at 11 is no stranger than having an opposite-sex crush at that age (and as for myself, I know I had plenty! :))

I agree that we need to dole out discipline equally... I am troubled that the other kids got away with mocking her Mormon heritage, while she was singled out for using "gay" as a slur. Frankly, we only hurt our own credibility when we're so selective in our agenda. If we're against unfair discrimination, we're against it. I hate that her parents have a point in that she was singled out and the others weren't. Next time, let's not give them a foot to stand on.

Here's some food for thought... I have an older brother who is developmentally disabled, and I still bristle when I hear someone use the phrase "That's so retarded." (Even though the word "retarded" -- in a clinical context -- was long ago replaced by other words that are more diagnostically precise and politically correct.) Whenever I hear someone say "That's so gay," I have a similar reaction, because every time I've heard it it's been used disparagingly, as if "gay" is the highest form of insult. I do think, though, that kids can sometimes throw phrases like these around without really understanding what they mean. If I were in a position of authority and I heard a child use either the "gay" or "retarded" phrase, I would take it upon myself first to try to explain to the kid why it isn't OK to say stuff like that rather than immediately suspend him or her. In that regard, I think the school in Fresno had the right idea in sending a letter home to parents. But if children insist on continuing to use slurs like this despite being taught that they're wrong? Heck yeah, punish them!

"I think it's perfectly conceivable--if not quite consistent--to use the expression "That's so gay" without attaching any negative associations to actually being gay. In fact, I bet many, many supporters of gay rights do this all the time."

I'm sorry. Even if someone says "That's so gay" without consciously attaching any negative associations to it still does NOT make it right. There is power in language and over time it becomes something we do not even consciously think about. For example, the word "black" has come to mean "evil, dirty, bad" while "white" has traditionally been associated with "purity, cleanliness, goodness" etc. This is not coincidence. This is something unconscious about how persons of color are viewed in relation to those with white skin.

Your assumptions would be wrong that those who support gay rights use this phrase. As a queer woman I never use this phrase and I never hear any of my straight friends use it either because they understand how much it hurts. Would you say "That's so retarded?" Or as someone has already mentioned, "That's so Negro?" No. "That's so gay" is something else that needs to stop.

I also agree that there's no excuse for schools not to be consistent in *how* they discipline students for making hateful remarks of any type.

I agree with people who say that using "gay" as a synonym for stupid or awful is reprehensible. I want to remind people (including feministing writers!) that using the word "lame" to mean stupid or awful is no different.

I agree with people who say that using "gay" as a synonym for stupid or awful is reprehensible. I want to remind people (including feministing writers!) that using the word "lame" to mean stupid or awful is no different.

I never thought much about using the word 'lame'---but, arcticwoman, you definitely have a point. Something to think about, for sure.

Arcticwoman--you bring up a good point about the word "lame." I do think that in time, the meaning of certain words can change. A lot of our insults are derived from more clinical terms used to describe disabilities. I think that summarizes the etymology of words like idiot, lame, invalid and imbecile. As language cleans itself up, we become horrified at the prospect of referring to a disabled person as "lame" or an imbecile. I'd like to see people stop referring to developmentally disabled people as "retarded."

I think it's a good idea to caution kids about which words they use and to encourage them to think about the power of words and to use words accurately and precisely. Kids use the word "gay" because nobody calls them on it. A lot of their teachers probably use it the same way. I'm thinking by college, most kids will stop saying it, because their peers will tell them that it's unacceptable. In elementary school, though, some of their teachers should be telling them that "gay" is not to be used as a derogatory term in their classrooms, and there should be consequences.

My sister teaches high school in the Bronx, and says the phrase is basically ubiquitious--but still banned from her classroom. She's extremely strict about respectful language, and finally managed to get it through some of her kids' heads so they now correct one another. ("You can't say that in here, Ms. A has a relative who's gay and she loves her very much! It's insulting!" - her next step is to get the kids to accept homophobia as wrong, without needing it tied to "someone she loves".) But basically, the phrase is unacceptable for her classroom the same way that swearing is; it's just that it takes a *lot* of time and classroom management to get a policy like that into effect, and a lot of teachers simply don't have the skills, time, and support from administration necessary. A very brief indication of myriad other ways the school system is screwed up...

I think it's perfectly conceivable--if not quite consistent--to use the expression "That's so gay" without attaching any negative associations to actually being gay. In fact, I bet many, many supporters of gay rights do this all the time.

I've never heard it from a supporter of gay rights.

So again: How do you distinguish kids who use the term spitefully from kids who don't?

I don't bother, because the intent of the speaker is not as important as the effect on those who hear what he or she is saying. "Oh, I didn't mean it that way" is not a valid excuse.

"Lame" is, I think, more complicated. While it's use to refer to someone missing a limb does predate the more figurative use by a few hundred years, the figurative use meaning "Maimed, halting; imperfect or defective, unsatisfactory as wanting a part or parts," goes back at least to Chaucer, which means that by now it's developed on that track for hundreds of years (of course, tradition alone is no reason to do something that's obnoxious--I'm more pointing out that lame, unlike gay, has had the time to develop into a word that actually means something else). It also makes metaphorical sense: a lame excuse is one that's missing a significant and necessary part; it maps pretty consistently onto the idea of a body missing a significant and necessary part, especially since the connection seems to have been made when life without one or more limbs would have been even harder than it is today. Whereas there's no figurative correspondence between using "gay" to mean "sexually attracted to people of the same sex" and "dumb."

"its use," not "it's use." sorry.

Okay... I'm feeling torn...

I agree that "gay" should not be used as an insult or to deride people, for exactly the reasons people are citing. I, like many American kids, used to use "gay" as an insult, but when I got older, I realized how hurtful that is, and I cut it from my vocabularly. I still find myself using "retarded" like that, and it's something that I'm working to remove, as well.

I'm not sure I agree about "lame" though. Yes, one definition of "lame" is "having a body part, especially a limb, so disabled as to impair freedom of movement." The word also means "lacking substance: weak, ineffectual" and has been used to refer to things that are somehow "broken" since at least the 14th century. The use of "lame" to mean "a person who is socially awkward" is relatively new, but "lame" has been used to refer to just about anything that is "broken" pretty much for as long as the word has been used.

My point being: should we abandon the definitions of words like "lame"?
This is especially interesting to me given that "lame" is almost never used to describe people anymore (is it? It doesn't seem to be around here, anyway).

I don't know.

Statistics (via GLSEN's School Climate Assessment 2005):
"75. 4% of students heard derogatory remarks such as "faggot" or "dyke" frequently or often at school, and nearly nine out of ten (89.2%) reported hearing "that's so gay" or "you're so gay" - meaning stupid or worthless-frequently or often."

"Over a third (37.8%) of students experienced physical harassment at school on the basis of sexual orientation and more than a quarter (26.1%) on the basis of their gender expression. Nearly one-fifth (17.6%) of students had been physically assaulted because of their sexual orientation and over a tenth (11.8%) because of their gender expression."

And I skipped a few, but kept these two...

"LGBT students were five times more likely to report having skipped school in the last month because of safety concerns than the general population of students."

"Having a comprehensive policy was related to a lower incidence of hearing homophobic remarks and to lower rates of verbal harassment. Students at schools with inclusive policies also reported higher rates of intervention by school staff when homophobic remarks were made."

On that note, I wasn't aware of my homosexuality when I was in grade school... so I can't remember "that's so gay" mattering. It did matter in high school. And I have heard gay activist say it; I'm also a gay activist who gets offended by and corrects it.

Schools have never given full free-speech rights to students; that's why we had cases like Engel v. Vital (public school prayer not allowed) and the cases on whether it was ok to drug test students or not (it is if they are in athletics).

But I don't see censorship as a solution, just like I don't think the girls who said "vagina" should be censored. It's a question of what we teach our kids, and what values we allow them to present in schools. Teachers, like the one in the Bronx, who make it clear that that phrase is not acceptable teach their kids a lot more than "Just say no" -- they give them the power of information. They give a rational reason for why this isn't ok.

Speech codes amplify hatred by limiting people; they can build tensions between groups instead of teaching groups to communicate. And while all parents aren't going to be anti-homophobic... it should be the job of the teachers, principals, coaches, etc. to say to children: we accept everyone when we are at school, Mormon, gay, etc. What you do at home is what you do at home. What you do here is different, and "that's so gay" is not acceptable. It's similar to how kids can pray at home and not at school. I think the Bronx teacher's idea of saying "I have a relative who is gay and i love him/her" is brilliant -- it takes the word "gay" from a slur and makes it into a person. It makes kids realize they are talking about a person. And one of those kids, someday, will make the connection that "my teacher loved her gay relative, so its ok if I do, too." That's just awesome.

Jenny Dreadful--

'idiot' actually has a relatively cool etymology. It derives from the ancient Greek term for 'private,' and was used to pejoratively refer to those who would refuse to involve themselves in city politics, and just mindlessly go along with their social and political lives. If you are going to use pejorative terms at all, directing them at politically disengaged, socially irresponsible low information voters is about as good as you're going to get.

Law Fairy:
Ok, fair enough. Actually I forgot about the film Heavenly Creatures, which is a perfect example of that, shame on me.
I was a bit of a late bloomer or oddball, I suppose. I never had a crush on anyone in junior high or high school, though many of my friends did. But then, I didn't recognize my own sexuality until I was a freshman in college and one day it just...dawned on me. I think it's probably easier to shrug off homosexual attractions as "normal" when you're bisexual, because at least half of you is having what you've been taught are the "right" attractions. I recall doing a lot of looking (ok, staring) at my various female HS classmates and telling myself I was just, er, comparing myself to them. Yeah, that's the ticket. Yes, that really was how I justified it. I know, sad. *blush*
I imagine if you're definitely straight or definitely gay, you have a clear distinction between what you're attracted to and not, and thus can sense the direction of that inclination pretty early on, as most people claim.

Either way, the quote I mentioned is still silly, because it seems to assume that being taught to be tolerant or even just aware of the existence of homosexuals will somehow make otherwise straight kids turn gay (like it's a fad?!?). That's just silly.

This is a little off-topic, but just in point of fact, aspendarlin, it is perfectly legal for children to pray at school. No court case, ever, has said that kids can't pray at school. Any child who wants to pray can, so long as it is not school-instituted, teacher-led, disruptive of the learning process, or involving those who don't wish to be involved.

In other words, they're allowed to pray. They're just not allowed to force it on anyone else.

This is a little off-topic, but just in point of fact, aspendarlin, it is perfectly legal for children to pray at school. No court case, ever, has said that kids can't pray at school. Any child who wants to pray can, so long as it is not school-instituted, teacher-led, disruptive of the learning process, or involving those who don't wish to be involved.

In other words, they're allowed to pray. They're just not allowed to force it on anyone else.

As a first attempt, I like the idea used in the UK article - that as a first attempt, it is probably best to deal with this by teaching rather than punishing - plus that allows us to avoid tricky legal issues. However, if there is a direct link to bullying or anything like that, I wouldn't be against more aggressive action. With proper education it shouldn't be needed.

It does beg the question what's ok and what's not. A lot of times it can be literally descriptive, and then - if the right people are involved - it is no longer a slur. For example, if my heterosexual friend was describing to me his hot makeout session with another male last night, it would be accurate (though perhaps a bit obvious) to say, "well, that's pretty gay."

Or to extent that into perhaps murkier territory, I might say to my pasty white republican cousin, when he listens to exclusively rap music, "you're acting as though you were black". Which is a neutral statement, from me I think - I would simply be pointing out some irony.

One more step? I suppose I could tell a friend who was having difficulty performing a simple task that he was "acting as though he were retarded". But that's just in bad taste - I've trained myself not to do it. (Though I still laugh at South Park when Stan or Kyle explain, "That's. Retarded.")

This is a little off-topic, but just in point of fact, aspendarlin, it is perfectly legal for children to pray at school. No court case, ever, has said that kids can't pray at school. Any child who wants to pray can, so long as it is not school-instituted, teacher-led, disruptive of the learning process, or involving those who don't wish to be involved.

In other words, they're allowed to pray. They're just not allowed to force it on anyone else.

As a first attempt, I like the idea used in the UK article - that as a first attempt, it is probably best to deal with this by teaching rather than punishing - plus that allows us to avoid tricky legal issues. However, if there is a direct link to bullying or anything like that, I wouldn't be against more aggressive action. With proper education it shouldn't be needed.

It does beg the question what's ok and what's not. A lot of times it can be literally descriptive, and then - if the right people are involved - it is no longer a slur. For example, if my heterosexual friend was describing to me his hot makeout session with another male last night, it would be accurate (though perhaps a bit obvious) to say, "well, that's pretty gay."

Or to extent that into perhaps murkier territory, I might say to my pasty white republican cousin, when he listens to exclusively rap music, "you're acting as though you were black". Which is a neutral statement, from me I think - I would simply be pointing out some irony.

One more step? I suppose I could tell a friend who was having difficulty performing a simple task that he was "acting as though he were retarded". But that's just in bad taste - I've trained myself not to do it. (Though I still laugh at South Park when Stan or Kyle explain, "That's. Retarded.")

Sorry! Kept getting errors, didn't think they were going through.

Dan Savage (of Savage Love fame) has a solution to all of this. He's in favor of using the phrase "that's so gay" to refer to homophic politicians and their statments. He figures that we're not going to get rid of it as a pejorative phrase (banning cursing in schools hasn't done much for "fuck"), so we might as well enjoy it.

Bush invading Iraq? So gay! Banning gay marriage? So gay!

Yeah, me too. Does anyone know why Feministing's server is be powered by a hamster named Gerald who seems to have mono today? I can picture the poor fella now, tongue hanging out, eyes crossed...

I also grew up saying "that's gay" and "that's retarded" to disparage anything that I regarded as stupid, uncool, or weak. When I got older and realized what I'd been saying all those years I was quite chagrined and deliberately excised both phrases from my vocabulary. It wasn't terribly difficult. A lot of it is pure habit, I think, and if we discourage the use of those particular phrases, kids will just invent new ones to replace them (hopefully ones that don't bash a specific group of people), with other catchphrases happily enough.

I'm not convinced that the value in a ban would lie in actually stopping kids from using the phrase; I think the value lies in the institutional communication to gay and gay-friendly kids that the school does not support verbal attacks on them.

I fall on the side of free speech on this issue. But even if I thought a code of conduct limiting speech were justified (which I don't), how would one account for using the words in a diminuitive sense or self-deprecating sense? Like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Or the term "bitch" which I use diminuitively all the time. When a benign version of the slur is part of the popular vernacular, it's oppressive to impugn some one for the use of the word.

I fall on the side of free speech on this issue. But even if I thought a code of conduct limiting speech were justified (which I don't), how would one account for using the words in a diminuitive sense or self-deprecating sense? Like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Or the term "bitch" which I use diminuitively all the time. When a benign version of the slur is part of the popular vernacular, it's oppressive to impugn some one for the use of the word.

My gay friends and I call things "gay" all the time. I understand trying to curb teenage ignorance, but I think context is important. However, I think there may be a sense of sarcasm, mocking the ignorance of one who would actually refer to something as "gay" when we use such an expression.

My gay friends and I call things "gay" all the time. I understand trying to curb teenage ignorance, but I think context is important. However, I think there may be a sense of sarcasm, mocking the ignorance of one who would actually refer to something as "gay" when we use such an expression.

I have a very un-PC take on this and my system is, if I know something offends you then I won't say it around you.

It wasn't until I was in college that I had a teacher who hated the word "retarded" because she had a brother who was mentally disabled. It drove her crazy and one day a girl used it so much talking to her the teacher broke out into hives. I usually try to be very respectful when I'm around new people, limiting my cussing, etc.

I kinda laughed at the "That's so Negro," which I have never heard. The term I've used is "That's so ghetto."

As for "That's so gay," I'll admit the last time I used it was with a friend, watching VH1's I Love New York and there was a scene between two guys, one shirtless, rubbing against each other. I looked to my friend and went, "That's so gay," meaning what they were doing was homoerotic, not stupid.

This is not to excuse my behavior but I do have gay male friends who also use the term. While I see this as much the same as those in the group can say "faggot" and "nigga" I don't know if we can be childish and go "I can say it and you can't!" route, nor can we just outright ban people, even students, from saying it.

I don't favor censorship of any kind and the whole idea of "we can say this because we're taking it back" makes no sense to me. If a white person wants to use "nigger" I say go ahead, especially when they use the "If they can use it why can't I?" argument.

Normally when a white person brings that up with me I tell them, "Use it in a sentence right now," and that typically shuts them up. But for something like, "That's so gay" that's problematic for me because the word itself meant something else and came to mean what it does now. None of these kids are saying, "That's so homosexual." That would be a big difference for me, just as if someone said, "That's so niggerish."

It's all in the word usage for me. If someone said my gay friend was acting "gay" my reaction wouldn't be as severe as if someone went, "You're acting like a faggot," just like if someone went to me, "Stop acting ghetto" and "Stop acting like a nigger."

I haven't read the UK article so I can't weigh in on whether or not it's a good solution, but I don't think more censorship is the way to go. Once you open that door, then the people who are without power will be the first to be censored.

I have a very un-PC take on this and my system is, if I know something offends you then I won't say it around you.

It wasn't until I was in college that I had a teacher who hated the word "retarded" because she had a brother who was mentally disabled. It drove her crazy and one day a girl used it so much talking to her the teacher broke out into hives. I usually try to be very respectful when I'm around new people, limiting my cussing, etc.

I kinda laughed at the "That's so Negro," which I have never heard. The term I've used is "That's so ghetto."

As for "That's so gay," I'll admit the last time I used it was with a friend, watching VH1's I Love New York and there was a scene between two guys, one shirtless, rubbing against each other. I looked to my friend and went, "That's so gay," meaning what they were doing was homoerotic, not stupid.

This is not to excuse my behavior but I do have gay male friends who also use the term. While I see this as much the same as those in the group can say "faggot" and "nigga" I don't know if we can be childish and go "I can say it and you can't!" route, nor can we just outright ban people, even students, from saying it.

I don't favor censorship of any kind and the whole idea of "we can say this because we're taking it back" makes no sense to me. If a white person wants to use "nigger" I say go ahead, especially when they use the "If they can use it why can't I?" argument.

Normally when a white person brings that up with me I tell them, "Use it in a sentence right now," and that typically shuts them up. But for something like, "That's so gay" that's problematic for me because the word itself meant something else and came to mean what it does now. None of these kids are saying, "That's so homosexual." That would be a big difference for me, just as if someone said, "That's so niggerish."

It's all in the word usage for me. If someone said my gay friend was acting "gay" my reaction wouldn't be as severe as if someone went, "You're acting like a faggot," just like if someone went to me, "Stop acting ghetto" and "Stop acting like a nigger."

I haven't read the UK article so I can't weigh in on whether or not it's a good solution, but I don't think more censorship is the way to go. Once you open that door, then the people who are without power will be the first to be censored.

I am a high school teacher and unfortunately hear this kind of stuff all the time. Yesterday was particularly odd though. A kid casually called a group of other kids "faggots". I told him not to use that word, that it was inappropriate. He responded by telling me that I "don't understand his slang" and that I "don't understand the way he's using it". What this means, I dont know...but I'm pretty sure the kid doesn't really know what he's saying either. Now, I know "gay" and "faggot" are different, but the bottom line is that I don't think kids really understand just how serious using these words in certain contexts are and simply say things without thinking. This kid in particular got very defensive when I called him out, leading me to believe he really didn't even know what he was talking about.

Its a tough call to make...when is it crossing the line? While we do have freedom of speech, that doesn't really mean that we're free to say whatever we want in whatever social context we want. Part of going to school is learning to how to navigate different social situations. Perhaps the whole "gay" thing falls more under that category rather than a freedom of speech issue.

I have a very un-PC take on this and my system is, if I know something offends you then I won't say it around you.

It wasn't until I was in college that I had a teacher who hated the word "retarded" because she had a brother who was mentally disabled. It drove her crazy and one day a girl used it so much talking to her the teacher broke out into hives. I usually try to be very respectful when I'm around new people, limiting my cussing, etc.

I kinda laughed at the "That's so Negro," which I have never heard. The term I've used is "That's so ghetto."

As for "That's so gay," I'll admit the last time I used it was with a friend, watching VH1's I Love New York and there was a scene between two guys, one shirtless, rubbing against each other. I looked to my friend and went, "That's so gay," meaning what they were doing was homoerotic, not stupid.

This is not to excuse my behavior but I do have gay male friends who also use the term. While I see this as much the same as those in the group can say "faggot" and "nigga" I don't know if we can be childish and go "I can say it and you can't!" route, nor can we just outright ban people, even students, from saying it.

I don't favor censorship of any kind and the whole idea of "we can say this because we're taking it back" makes no sense to me. If a white person wants to use "nigger" I say go ahead, especially when they use the "If they can use it why can't I?" argument.

Normally when a white person brings that up with me I tell them, "Use it in a sentence right now," and that typically shuts them up. But for something like, "That's so gay" that's problematic for me because the word itself meant something else and came to mean what it does now. None of these kids are saying, "That's so homosexual." That would be a big difference for me, just as if someone said, "That's so niggerish."

It's all in the word usage for me. If someone said my gay friend was acting "gay" my reaction wouldn't be as severe as if someone went, "You're acting like a faggot," just like if someone went to me, "Stop acting ghetto" and "Stop acting like a nigger."

I haven't read the UK article so I can't weigh in on whether or not it's a good solution, but I don't think more censorship is the way to go. Once you open that door, then the people who are without power will be the first to be censored.

Hmm...tough issue.
Some people (especially impressionable young teens) will take "gay is a bad word" to mean "being gay is bad".

After all, shit is a bad word, and nobody likes feces.

Hmm...tough issue.
Some people (especially impressionable young teens) will take "gay is a bad word" to mean "being gay is bad".

After all, shit is a bad word, and nobody likes feces.

Comments are being wonky today.

I just wanted to add as clarification, in light of some other people's comments: I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "that's so gay" about things that actually are gay, or traditionally connected with being gay--like 2 people of the same sex (gay or otherwise) kissing--but I do think using it as a general synonym for bad/stupid/uncool--as I think most grade school kids tend to use it--is NOT appropriate (because of the obvious implication that if gay = bad/dumb/uncool then a person who is gay must therefore be bad, dumb, or uncool.

I'm also not advocating we make it illegal to say it, for the free speech crowd. I'm suggesting we discourage kids from saying it by explaining to them that doing so is rude, insensitive, and impolite--kind of like saying "fuck" in front of Grandma--nice people don't.

It occurs to me that one of the problems is there's not really a good term for a useful concept, and there really needs to be.

A friend of a friend started an interesting rating system for the movies she watches. It's a two-axis graph, one axis being "good/bad" and the other being "awesome/lame". This has bothered me quite a bit, because I can no longer see words like that as not attacking groups.

I really can't think of any words that mean "not awesome" that are acceptable for schoolchildren to use; somehow I don't think parents would appreciate their children being told "don't say gay, retarded or lame, say 'crap' instead."

Vervain - my feelings exactly!

Jeff - how about we teach kids, instead of saying, "That's gay!" or "That's lame!" to use "I" statements: "I don't like you," or "I don't like that" or "I feel bad when you do (_____) because (______.)" Isn't that what communications gurus and therapists are always telling people to do in order to communicate better?

I'm half kidding here... can you imagine a bunch of junior high kids going around saying, "I feel bad when you wear that outfit because it makes my eyes hurt." ? Mind-boggling.

Oh, one of my favorites. When I was doing student teaching, this conversation would have me pounding my head on the desk. I tried to explain to my kids why "That's so gay" was offense, and they complained I was stomping all over their right to free speech. So I printed off the supreme court decision that says I have the right to do that, and explained that it was my job to provide a safe learning environment and that, if statistically, 10% of the population is homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, etc (not sure where I heard that one, but it was a statistic I came across somewhere) that 3 people in our 30 person class were likely to be questioning their sexuality and we all had a duty to make sure we did not make them feel unsafe or unwanted.

I explained how using "That's so gay!" to describe the WASL (the Washington State standardized test meant to fulfull NCLB requirements) was really insulting, because, hey, do you think gay people want to be associated with something as obnoxious and tedious and stupid as the WASL? Whereas using that's so gay to describe, for instance, two men kissing, would be appropriate, because that's what the word actually meant, and since I was teaching English, we were very concerned about using our words properly.

I never won this battle. Most of them never saw my point. It's something I still call people on no matter where I am...cafes, bookstores, whatever. I gave my ex-bf hell for this one. I think it is likely to be one of those battles we will not resolve in this lifetime. But, I don't think it's worth lying down and giving up on it. My kids eventually stopped using that word, not because they saw my point, but because they were so tired of hearing me explain why that was NOT OK everytime the issue arose. They'll get the point eventually, hopefully. They'll grow up and see what all of us have seen. But in the meantime, my non-heterosexual students knew I was on their side, and that my classroom was a safe place to be.

Um I think this is a case of adults over-reacting to common teenage language, which isn't meant to be offensive. As someone who is bi-sexual and had lots of gay friends in high school, we all used the phrase and I even use it now. It's part of the youth culture, but it's not intended to be demeaning or harsh to gay students or anyone else. I think these students peers understand this, just like a black student using the N word is not considered offensive among his peers. Besides which, you can't really claim that students in school in which the words "that is gay" are not allowed to be said, will feel comfortable admitting they ARE gay, if they don't even have freedom of speech, let alone expression.

Um I think this is a case of adults over-reacting to common teenage language, which isn't meant to be offensive. As someone who is bi-sexual and had lots of gay friends in high school, we all used the phrase and I even use it now. It's part of the youth culture, but it's not intended to be demeaning or harsh to gay students or anyone else. I think these students peers understand this, just like a black student using the N word is not considered offensive among his peers. Besides which, you can't really claim that students in school in which the words "that is gay" are not allowed to be said, will feel comfortable admitting they ARE gay, if they don't even have freedom of speech, let alone expression.

I have been a fan of your site for about two years now. You and the other wonderful contributers rock.
Knowledge is power, ans I thank you for empowering us all to make a change.

It's ironic this story came when it did , as this has been a a huge debate on the Cafemom message board, of which I am a disgruntled member.
This site seems to be a haven for bigots using these same phrases under the guise of free speech.
The debate has been quashed and my posts calling out members use of these slurs, have been deleted by the administrators, (breaking their own ToS in the process) of the site.
The powers that be, continue to allow the slurs against homosexuals, people of color,those who are mentaly disabled and those who practises any faith that isn't Evangelical Christianity.
I have since started a letter writing campaign to alert their sponsers of the situation.

It really is a shame in this day and age that parents and society as a whole, are still using and teaching children that slurs and derogetory comments against whole groups of people based on fear and hatred is acceptable and "just havin' fun".

Slurs are hate speech, and one should not be able to hide behind the 1st amendment, doing so is akin to and homophobes and pro-lifers hiding behind their bible, in defense of their murderous actions.

I have since been kicked off Cafemom for bring attention to the fact that they endorse hatred on their site.
Nice huh.

I have since been kicked off Cafemom for bringing attention to the fact that they endorse hatred on their site.
Nice huh.

From about 5th to 7th grade, I used the words "fag" or "faggot" as insults.

I had known about gay people since 3rd grade, had seen them as other people. It wasn't something I said because I thought gay people were bad--at least, not consciously. I don't know if I sensed the homophobia in others and knew that that would needle them more than other words, or had some latent homophobic tendencies myself, but it was quite popular as an insult, not just for me but for my classmates. In short, I wore an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time.

Unlike most of my classmates, however, I outgrew such juvenilia as I discovered "freestyle" insults, the mixing and matching of words to create new and weird insults. To this day I'll never forget the look on one person's face when I called him a dolphin molester. (As in, someone who molests dolphins, not a dolphin that molests.)

I don't know if homophobia will ever stop at pre-post-secondary education, particularly high school. Like in that one Veronica Mars ep--being gay is okay, or even cool...if you're in college. In high school...not so much. You have to remember that students treat high school, especially the social scene, like a matter of life and death, when five years after graduation they won't be able to recall the face of that person they crushed on, let alone the name.

Using fag, faggot, that's so gay, eck cetera, is a sign of immaturity, but let's face it--I've met college students who act like fifteen-year-olds. Until someone grows up mentally, stupid shit like that has to be expected, though certainly not endorsed.

From about 5th to 7th grade, I used the words "fag" or "faggot" as insults.

I had known about gay people since 3rd grade, had seen them as other people. It wasn't something I said because I thought gay people were bad--at least, not consciously. I don't know if I sensed the homophobia in others and knew that that would needle them more than other words, or had some latent homophobic tendencies myself, but it was quite popular as an insult, not just for me but for my classmates. In short, I wore an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time.

Unlike most of my classmates, however, I outgrew such juvenilia as I discovered "freestyle" insults, the mixing and matching of words to create new and weird insults. To this day I'll never forget the look on one person's face when I called him a dolphin molester. (As in, someone who molests dolphins, not a dolphin that molests.)

I don't know if homophobia will ever stop at pre-post-secondary education, particularly high school. Like in that one Veronica Mars ep--being gay is okay, or even cool...if you're in college. In high school...not so much. You have to remember that students treat high school, especially the social scene, like a matter of life and death, when five years after graduation they won't be able to recall the face of that person they crushed on, let alone the name.

Using fag, faggot, that's so gay, eck cetera, is a sign of immaturity, but let's face it--I've met college students who act like fifteen-year-olds. Until someone grows up mentally, stupid shit like that has to be expected, though certainly not endorsed.

From about 5th to 7th grade, I used the words "fag" or "faggot" as insults.

I had known about gay people since 3rd grade, had seen them as other people. It wasn't something I said because I thought gay people were bad--at least, not consciously. I don't know if I sensed the homophobia in others and knew that that would needle them more than other words, or had some latent homophobic tendencies myself, but it was quite popular as an insult, not just for me but for my classmates. In short, I wore an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time.

Unlike most of my classmates, however, I outgrew such juvenilia as I discovered "freestyle" insults, the mixing and matching of words to create new and weird insults. (Sort of like freestyle rap battles, except with no backbeat and no pressure to rhyme. What can I say? I'm whiter than Wonderbread.) To this day I'll never forget the look on one person's face when I called him a dolphin molester. (As in, someone who molests dolphins, not a dolphin that molests.)

I don't know if homophobia will ever stop at pre-post-secondary education, particularly high school. Like in that one Veronica Mars ep--being gay is okay, or even cool...if you're in college. In high school...not so much. You have to remember that students treat high school, especially the social scene, like a matter of life and death, when five years after graduation they won't be able to recall the face of that person they crushed on, let alone the name.

Using fag, faggot, that's so gay, eck cetera, is a sign of immaturity, but let's face it--I've met college students who act like fifteen-year-olds. Until someone grows up mentally, stupid shit like that has to be expected, though certainly not endorsed.

From about 5th to 7th grade, I used the words "fag" or "faggot" as insults.

I had known about gay people since 3rd grade, had seen them as other people. It wasn't something I said because I thought gay people were bad--at least, not consciously. I don't know if I sensed the homophobia in others and knew that that would needle them more than other words, or had some latent homophobic tendencies myself, but it was quite popular as an insult, not just for me but for my classmates. In short, I wore an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time.

Unlike most of my classmates, however, I outgrew such juvenilia as I discovered "freestyle" insults, the mixing and matching of words to create new and weird insults. (Sort of like freestyle rap battles, except with no backbeat and no pressure to rhyme. What can I say? I'm whiter than Wonderbread.) To this day I'll never forget the look on one person's face when I called him a dolphin molester. (As in, someone who molests dolphins, not a dolphin that molests.)

I don't know if homophobia will ever stop at pre-post-secondary education, particularly high school. Like in that one Veronica Mars ep--being gay is okay, or even cool...if you're in college. In high school...not so much. You have to remember that students treat high school, especially the social scene, like a matter of life and death, when five years after graduation they won't be able to recall the face of that person they crushed on, let alone the name.

Using fag, faggot, that's so gay, eck cetera, is a sign of immaturity, but let's face it--I've met college students who act like fifteen-year-olds. Until someone grows up mentally, stupid shit like that has to be expected, though certainly not endorsed.

Mother--

SERVER ERRORS. BLARG!

Up until I was in middle school I didn’t know what gay meant much less faggot. All my friends and I knew was that they were extremely bad words never to be uttered in adult company; we actually used to talk about what it might mean.

I for one am very against using "that's gay" or "that's retarded". Say "that's stupid" or something. It
s not that hard, now you try.

Some argue that it's free speech, but I don't think people have the right to utter hateful and derogatory words.

Some things are beyond parody.

This comment thread is one of those things.

Some things are beyond parody.

This comment thread is one of those things.

Thank God the courts have historically soundly disagreed with you, Rach.

Offensive speech is routinely protected under the First Amendment.

Jason, but not obscene speech. If speech is absolutely devoid of any kind of value (scientific, artistic, whatever) it isn't protected by the First Amendment.

Probably wouldn't apply here, since "gay" has meanings besides derogatory ones -- the derogatory meaning, in fact, flows from the intent of the speaker rather than the word's inherent potency (as opposed to words like "fuck," which has been regulated, or "n****r" or "f****t").

What about this thread strikes you as farcical?

Thank God the courts have historically soundly disagreed with you, Rach.

Offensive speech is routinely protected under the First Amendment.

Are people really worried about censoring children? CHILDREN? Are parents really SUING for the right for their children to be homophobes? GTFOOHWTB, I wish my folks would've gotten a call saying I'd said something like that. They would've thanked the teachers and beat my ass all the way home.

And Jason, while offensive speech is protected under the first amendment, hate speech is not. Between the "fighting words" doctrine and hate crime laws, I doubt if these kids would be covered.