It is hypocritical. I do exotic dancing as a university student. It is a living, but it's a job. I don't do this because I am 'slutty' (on the contrary, I'm monogamous with a man, who prior to him, I was a virgin!) You would never guess I'm a stripper just by looking at me. (Mousy, carrying a chemistry text most times, quiet, no skimpy clothes except my work clothes) When I do tell people my occupation, you can just see my worth plummeting in their eyes. Women most of any treat me like scum.

On the side, I really want a pole for my apartment.

It's doubly empowering if you listen to Snap's "The Power" during the exercise, and quadruply empowering if you drink Powerade after the workout. In fact, suburban housewives who do all three may be able to manipulate space and time and cure all known diseases.

It is hypocritical. I do exotic dancing as a university student. It is a living, but it's a job. I don't do this because I am 'slutty' (on the contrary, I'm monogamous with a man, who prior to him, I was a virgin!) You would never guess I'm a stripper just by looking at me. (Mousy, carrying a chemistry text most times, quiet, no skimpy clothes except my work clothes) When I do tell people my occupation, you can just see my worth plummeting in their eyes. Women most of any treat me like scum.

On the side, I really want a pole for my apartment.

My sister-in-law teaches pole dancing and has a pole in her garage. Contrary to thinking that pro dancers are beneath her, she seeks to learn from them.
Overall, the trend's a little awkward, and the language about it even worse, but it condescends to the suburban housewife as well as the pro dancer.

I take belly dancing lessons, and we see the same problem. Over half of my class is middle-aged moms, and there are two grandmothers. But people see it as a hypersexual sort of dancing that is done only for a male audience -- which is far from true. Many of the women are overweight -- they come to class to learn to love their bodies and take a break from the stress of the world. Just because we wear less clothing, we are no less of dancers than anyone else -- and I believe that about women who pole dance, too. Why is it that performances are viewed as only by women, for men? Oh yeah, because our sexuality isn't our own -- it's owned by whoever lays his eyes on me. And women are only sexual until they pop out a kid -- it's all downhill from there. *snickers* It's empowering to me to think I could be 60 and still have the drive and ability to dance and be sensual.

I have a problem with this. Pole dancing is mainstreaming from the pornography industry. It doesn't liberate your sexuality, it's exhibitionism of a degrading nature. It's done for money. From strange men. Who usually want to have sex with you for money. Do we want our husbands and boyfriends treating us like this? How much more like an object can you be? How about taking a real dance class, one in which we might interact with one another, relax, experience joy?

It's empowerful.

Symbal, how well does exotic dancing pay compared to a minimum wage job? How did you get into dancing? Was it just to pay for school?

Pole dancing being co-opted by upper/middle class women...hmmm... I am all about women being empowered and in charge and in touch with their own sexuality. It sounds like the classes are done in homes, surrounded by friends, where there is plenty of fun interaction.

In context with the article about sexualization being bad for girls and women, it's easy to paint this trend as self-sexualization, self objectification, etc.

I resent slurs about sex workers. The thing that bothers me about the pole dancing trend is that the women who are taking it up as a hobby are possibly (do I daresay probably) the same women bashing sex workers for working in the industry. I doubt they would invite them over for Sunday dinner with the family... so these upper class, middle class women who are pretty well insulated and privileged in our society get to co-opt the fun parts of the dancing, without the stigma. Without the risk of sexual assault, leaving work at night. Without dealing with parts of the sex industry that really, really suck.

Like I said, I am all about women claiming their own sexualility, having fun, feeling sexy and empowered- just so long as it is not on the backs of people who, because they perform in the context of the sex industry, are stigmatized. And the stigma can hurt hella worse than dancing for some people, or whatever the venue of sex work the worker is engaged in. The work itself, and consumers, are not generally the dangerous part. It's the people, like the cop in California, who see sex workers as 'the perfect victim.' It's the people who look down their nose at sex workers and treat them as less than human.

Sex workers contribute 2 to 14 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product of some countries and the revenues they generate are crucial to the livelihoods of many hotels, bars and restaurants.

Mamacita,
Have you ever taken a "real" dance class? Its not about relaxing or feeling joy. Its hard, sweaty, muscle-straining work, with injuries, and not a ton of interaction between dancers, especially at the lower level.

Personally, my boyfriend wouldn't think less of me for pole dancing because he doesn't think it is degrading to women, because he doesn't degrade them whilest they dance. The sex workers aren't objects, and neither are women pole dancing in their living rooms.

Maybe, and this is a crazy idea here, they just find it fun.

I fail to see the problem with taking the economic coercion and stigma away from things traditionally associated with sex work. Nothing in that emboldened bit implied that people who strip/dance/hook for money are bad - it did imply that being forced by economic and class factors into sex work is bad for women, and I'd hope that we could all agree on that. It's not like you need to be humiliated or sexually assaulted to earn the right to dance around a pole and enjoy it.

I am not a fan of stripping as a hypocritical sign of female empowerment, nor other borrowings from porn.

I can't explain why as well as Ariel Levy in Female Chauvinist Pigs, so I will leave it at a book recommendation.

I am all about enjoying sex and feeling sexy. However, if one other person implies that involves me acting like a stripper or porn star........rrrrrrg.

And BTW, I don't hate the players, I hate the game. I respect women individually who are sex workers or former sex workers.

Samhita read into the article a put-down that was not there. All the article says is that middle-class women pole-dancing for fun and exercise( and maybe to perk up their husbands) is a different matter than women forced by poverty into dangerous or demeaning sex work. Is that not true? Are they the same?
Personally, I thought those women were ridiculous and a bit pathetic. it's all part of the pornification of contemporary life, which Feministing can never make up its mind about.

"How much more like an object can you be?"

Hmm...I got lots of objects here on my desk right now. None of 'em dance. ;)

"I fail to see the problem with taking the economic coercion and stigma away from things traditionally associated with sex work."

Good point. Some of the things I almost take for granted have been associated with sex work in other times and places (like literacy for girls - "OMG if I send her to school she won't rely on her husband and she'll be a whore!!!").

"Sex workers contribute 2 to 14 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product of some countries and the revenues they generate are crucial to the livelihoods of many hotels, bars and restaurants."

OTOH, in some cases isn't calling them "sex workers" sugarcoating their being slaves and their revenues propping up their owners' hotels/bars/restaurants while they don't get to keep any of the revenues for themselves?

"it did imply that being forced by economic and class factors into sex work is bad for women, and I'd hope that we could all agree on that."

Exactly. It's like the way agricultural slavery in the pre-1865 South doesn't make farming cotton, indigo, rice, tobacco, etc. itself inherently degrading.

0.25 per cent and 1.5 per cent of the female population in these countries were sex workers but most were not sex slaves. Researchers said it was hard to say how many were sex slaves.

Hilary, I totally identify with you. I am totally uncomfortable with a lot of aspects of sex work and the "porn culture". Mainly because of the way it presents women as a sexual commodity and subtley denies our value of human beings.

My problem is also rationalizing (rationalizing is not the right word but I can't figure out what word I'm looking for right now) this with the actual sex workers. I hate to be critical of the system because that easily turns into criticizing the actual strippers and such. But I'm also afraid of being patronizing. I really can't judge or understand individual's motivations behind participating in these activities, but my gut feeling is that the whole culture is bad for women.

So in the end, I don't know how to respond. I continue to read more about it and try to understand the issue.

While I've never worked in the sex industry or been to a middle-class suburban housewife pole-dancing party, my old roommate had Carmen Electra's Cardio Striptease DVDs and I did them a few times out of boredom/curiosity.

It was fun.

I don't know if I'd say it was empowering, but I can see how it might be empowering to women who feel out of touch with their sexuality. I really enjoyed doing the dances. And it did make me feel sexy (despite the smelly sweatiness afterwards)and it helped me feel more comfortable in my own skin. I think those are good things. Because I support women who choose to work in the sex industry, I don't feel like it's hypocritical, but it certainly would be if I thought all strippers were dirty whores but was getting some sort of validation by copying the strip club brand of female sexuality, even if it was in the privacy of my own home.

Sometimes I think that anytime women do something that makes them feel good about themselves, they call it empowerment. I don't necessarily think that's true. Because I didn't feel like I needed permission or an excuse to dance in an overtly sexual manner, doing silly striptease workouts didn't empower me. But that doesn't mean it didn't feel good. I also think that once people use the word "empowerment" it starts to sound like it's what all women should do. And I definitely don't think that's fair.

While I didn't see any huge problems with the article, I was annoyed that they fell back on the stereotype that strippers only get into the biz because they're in poverty (which is different than just wanting to make more money than you would at starbucks).

Thanks, Symbal, for providing a more positive image of sex-workers.

I like what Hilary said "I don't hate the players, I hate the game. I respect women individually who are sex workers or former sex workers."

But on another note, I have confusion in my life over a similar aspect. A sort of hypocrisy within myself that I don't understand. For instance, I love porn. Yet I cannot stand to see pop stars hopelessly flaunting nearly nothing clothing-wise in music videos. Yet at the same time I like porn, strippers and have also considered posing for an online pin-up girl site. So tell me why I have this stigma? Is it because sex and sexy belong in the sex industry? or am I just weird?

I like what Hilary said "I don't hate the players, I hate the game. I respect women individually who are sex workers or former sex workers."

But on another note, I have confusion in my life over a similar aspect. A sort of hypocrisy within myself that I don't understand. For instance, I love porn. Yet I cannot stand to see pop stars hopelessly flaunting nearly nothing clothing-wise in music videos. Yet at the same time I like porn, strippers and have also considered posing for an online pin-up girl site. So tell me why I have this stigma? Is it because sex and sexy belong in the sex industry? or am I just weird?

What gets me about the "empowerment" trend is that almost everything that they say is "empowering" for women is sexual. You'd never hear a girl getting an A on her math exam is "empowering" there aren't news stories about women soldiers finding the job "empowering," or women working outside the home as "empowering" or even taking up a personal hobby or community service for SAHM as "empowering".

No. Almost all the times we hear about female "empowerment" is through some kind of sexual activity that was originally reserved for the pleasure of men. And you can argue all you want but porn and stripping were for the pleasure of men and women's pleasure (whether they liked doing it or not) didn't matter as long as the male customers were happy.

You could say that it's great that women are co-opting these things for themselves as long as it makes them feel good, then again, you could say that black people reclaiming "nigger" into "nigga" and gays using the word "fag" to each other is also empowering. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

I'd just like to see something else BESIDES sex referred to as "empowering." With all of the other examples I used most of the time women are meant to feel ashamed of themselves for being smart, strong, or having a life outside the home. Whereas if it's sexual, well then ladies by all means, empower yourselves!

I find that contrast very fishy.

First: this is nothing new. Pole-dancing as "exercise" has been the rage for at least half a decade by now.

I agree that it reads too much into the article to infer a stigma associated with the last paragraph. I didn't take it that way at all -- they're criticizing the industry/society for devaluing women who do sex work, and for giving women no other choices than sex work. This is precisely the distinction many (most?) of us here on feministing make. As someone above said, we hate the game, not the player :) If women legitimately could choose to go into sex work or not go into sex work -- and if the exact same choices were equally legitimate for men at every level -- I would have zero problem with pole dancing, etc. My problem with it is that the way it exists now, it is utilized as a form of inequality and oppression.

I'm simultaneously encouraged and disturbed by the embrace of pole dancing and such by "suburban housewives," etc. Encouraged because, on some level, people will be FORCED to confront their hypocrisy in looking down on the people who do this work rather than (where you're going to look down on someone) on those who pay for it and those who run establishments where it's done for money -- because, heavens, we would never look down on them, they're legitimate businessmen (vomit).

On the other hand, it seems to me we're addressing a symptom rather than the problem -- and it's one of those remedies where treating the symptom in the end actually makes the problem worse, like scratching chicken pox. By normalizing pole dancing for WOMEN but not men, we perpetuate a stereotype that women exist for men's enjoyment and pleasure. Anyone who thinks this is SOLELY about helping women love their bodies, etc., ask your man how he would feel if you put on a show for his friends. If he's uncomfortable with it, this indicates there's still a sexual power dynamic at play. If he accepts that it's your damn body and you can do whatever the fuck you want with it, then does he have a single brother and what's his number? ;)

Stripping pays more than my minimum wage job did, but most strippers are classified as independent contractors. We do not get paid wages, we are usually paid by the dance (which is normally $20 per song), a portion of which the club takes, and we keep all of our tips. I've made good money, sometimes $600 a night (after paying the club and the floor staff), but at times I can leave with as little as $60 after house fee and tip out. It varies. If you are no good at what you do, you do not get much out of it.

And I agree with those that say hate the game. I do not care for certain aspects of my job. You get creeps and those who assume you are there for them to abuse. A majority of the people who frequent my club understand that they are paying for the fantasy. I get a number of women too.

And I did not get into stripping due to my monetary needs. I had a job that met my needs, but I thought that maybe I could make a better peeling for cash. It also seemed fun. (It is! Pole dancing is very fun. You get in amazing shape from it.) So I got some platform heels and a mini dress and auditioned. I haven't looked back. I plan on doing this job until I graduate. For the record, I'm majoring in Forensic science. I did chip of a chunk of my first student loans, but a majority of my gains to go rent, groceries, and bills. The rest is savings and chipping away at interest on my loans.

You nailed exactly how I feel, Ultra Magnus.

I worked in the kinky sex industry until fairly recently, often doing sessions where I allowed clients to control me and/or inflict sexualized pain (sexualized for me as well as them). I disliked immensely the bandwagon so many people were quick to jump on, by labeling what I was doing empowering because it was something I *chose*. I mean, bless their hearts, I know they meant to distinguish themselves from people who were judgmental towards me, but please. Learning self defense would be empowering. Feeling good about myself whether I'm in a relationship or getting laid or getting any male attention at all is empowering. Learning how to do things I'm neither expected nor required nor in some cases allowed to do - that kind of thing is empowering.

Did getting paid to act out many of my own sexual fantasies make me feel sexier at times? Absolutely, as did getting naked in front of people and feeling like my body was adored. But did any bit of that sex work experience increase my actual power in the world, as a woman? No.

the strip aerobics excersize tapes remind me of the clip that was up a little while ago of the snl skit with drew barrymore doing the ridiculous 80's workouts. i did the strip one that was on on demand and turned it off after 15 minutes of walking sexily and flipping my hair. i guess its "fun" for some people but for a workout? please. buy some weights and go running.

id have to admit an actual pole would be fun not for the sexiness but just because i think its fun to swing around lamp posts and such. but i sure as hell wouldnt pay 400$ for it (id also be wary of walking into someones house that had a pole installed,like complete with dance floor and possibly a hot tub.. male or female...kind of like those products that your glad people own so that you know to steer clear of them)

"I'd just like to see something else BESIDES sex referred to as 'empowering.'"

Me too!

"Anyone who thinks this is SOLELY about helping women love their bodies, etc., ask your man how he would feel if you put on a show for his friends. If he's uncomfortable with it, this indicates there's still a sexual power dynamic at play."

Wouldn't that depend on whether his discomfort would be "no, your body is for my eyes only!" or "no, I strip and dance naked for you and don't do that for your friends!"?

You can get poles for cheaper than $400. Then can be taken down at will. I'd have one but the cheaper variety involve drilling a hole into the ceiling into a joist. I think my landlord might have a problem with that.

I suppose the power trip I sometimes I while working is the fact that my body is adored. It's flattering, but I've been given large sums of money for my time, presence, and conversation. That's flattering as well. At the same time, you often see men at their most vulnerable. Not always, but sometimes you meet men who want nothing more than to be honest to god dominated, even injured, by women. The best are the foot fetish ones. They will give you $50's to rub your feet. :D At the same time, there is always my favorite times when a man thinks he is God's gift to women and treats you like dirt. You smile at him, tell him exactly where he can go, and that you don't need his money or him, and walk off. It's better if you can get him thrown out. When you work in my industry, you tend to get a lot of chances to treat some men as they are.

And as I see it, a lot of people see sex as 'empowering' or 'liberating' because all of this is still taboo, and we willingly fly in the face of norms that hold us down. It's one of those last frontiers that is still off limits to women, alas.

But is it taboo? It seems like the kind of sexual behaviors that are called "empowering" are the kinds that women have been doing for men for a long time already. Where is the discussion of how cunnilingus is empowering?

It's not just that I only see "empowering" used about sex; it's that I only see it used to talk about sex that pleases men, so that it comes off as a kind of "it's not sexist, it's empowering!" I never see articles talking about how realizing that you didn't have to succumb to compulsory heterosexuality and finding the best sex ever with a butch dyke is empowering.

If these women were learning how to have orgasms, THAT would be empowering. If they were having sex-toy parties, that might be empowering also. It would be about getting to know themselves sexually. But learning how to imitate sex workers? To me, that's like wearing a French maid's uniform or dressing up like a Catholic school girl. It's all about male fantasies, about living up to the porn ideal. Next week they'll be having breast implants and vaginal rejuvenation surgery. And it will all be presented as something they are doing "for themselves."

"If women legitimately could choose to go into sex work or not go into sex work -- and if the exact same choices were equally legitimate for men at every level -- I would have zero problem with pole dancing, etc. My problem with it is that the way it exists now, it is utilized as a form of inequality and oppression."

True Dat! In my city, there are NO male strip clubs, in contrast to the 15 female ones. There was no mention in that article of men stripping and dancing around a pole. When the word SEX is used with an image, it's 99.9% a woman. That's the problem. I happen to think the male body is hot stuff! I want to see them sweating and doing sexy moves with a pole. When that's as common as a woman doing it, we'll be in the clear.

Thank you EG and somecat, you beat me to it.

Since when is stripping and porn "taboo" in this culture? What's "taboo" is reproductive rights. What's "taboo" ARE sex toys for women's pleasure (thank you Texas) what's "taboo" is a women being able to freakin' breast feed her child in public without some kind of scorn. THAT'S what's taboo, this is socially condoned.

kolie, and not just men -- straight men, and without any stigma/backlash, etc. from neanderthals who think that makes them "feminine" or some other similarly stupid word.

I, too, am a huge fan of the male body -- and on a related note, I HATE it when people say the "female form" is more beautiful. Um, to SOME people, maybe. Not to me. Nothing against women, but I'm way more sexually attracted to men. Give me a nice, non-curvy, squarish male figure over a female one any day.

Gimme some ladies clubs!

Symbal, what percentage of your customers were extremely unattractive? Unattractive? Attractive?

Oh, and of course, EG, some cat, and Ultra, THANK YOU. I'm CONSTANTLY telling people this -- there's nothing "taboo" about sexualizing women's bodies. We've been doing it for millenia. What's taboo is letting women be whole people in charge of our own destinies, be they wholly, partly, or not at all sexual.

A male friend of mine mentioned to me a few months ago that some guys in town were puttiing together an all male burlesque troupe...or boylesque as it were.

I was the only one of my friends, male or female (though all of us straight, gay men would probably feel differently) that didn't think this was strange. I was pretty excited at the idea of watching hot guys strut around doing sexy lttle dances and getting naked..well..almost naked...burlesque is pretty tame.

It really bothered me that none of my friends (who are all fairly progressive) were comfortable with the idea of watching men dance when none of my friends have issues with watching women dance in strip clubs.

Sigh...

oh...and elektrodot...i couldn't agree more with your comment about how the striptease "exercise" videos aren't a very good workout. I've seen some pretty athletic strip club performances, but you're not gonna learn those from a DVD. but it was kinda fun.

Law Fairy,

I can't remember when but we have had the discussion fairly recently about the whole "female bodies are more beautiful than males" and on that thread I said it makes me want to puke every time I hear it from men or women.

Like you I have nothing against women, I am one, but when it comes to visually pleasing damn I love me some pecs. Take them over looking at breasts anyday. I am also an advocate of full frontal male nudity in films:)

This concept definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The smug sense of privilege bothers me--if you're doing it "for fun!" you're cheered on for "empowering" yourself, but if you do it to pay your rent, it's suddenly unseemly and risky and degrading? Also, the co-opting of someone else's reality for your entertainment seems really...smug and elitist. Ick.

I also agree with the point that only sexual behavior (especially that which caters specifically to men's desires) seems to get tagged as "empowering"--I can't think of an instance where that wasn't the case. Very highly suspect, that.

Does dancing or dressing in these ways, ways that are popularly considered "sexy," make you feel "sexy"? Sure, why wouldn't they? After all, you're behaving in the way you've been taught a "sexy" woman behaves. Or dresses. Or dances. But I question that this is really a case of women "embracing their sexuality." To my knowledge, women don't achieve any inherent sexual gratification from wearing fishnet stockings and garters, or swinging around a pole. I think we feel those things are "sexy" only because we were taught to associate them with sex. And a lot of things we’re taught to associate with being "sexy" women seem more aligned with arousing a (presumably male) viewer--dancing, dressing up--than they are with arousing or satisfying ourselves.
Which sucks.
So maybe we need to redefine what’s "sexy" by our own terms?

So glad everyone liked the quote!

And, I have to second the props given to UltraMagnus, EG and somecat.

Fulfilling mainstream male fantasies to MOST women is not necessarily sexy, and cannot be anywhere near the most empowering thing women can do.

Vervain, you may be cheered on if you strip-- and more -- to pay your rent. Look at Jenna Jameson. She's rich, famous, a best-selling author. Very empowered! The stigma of sex work is declining by the minute. You just have to be a successful at it, businesslike and in control, not a street walker, much less a drunken girl gone wild. That is why these very respectable desperate housewives are learning to pole dance-- a national craze, btw. if it were truly transgressive/shocking/lowclass, they wouldn't be doing it.
I just think it's very sad all around.

“I, too, am a huge fan of the male body� Who isn’t? ;-)

I just wanted to add to what EG, TLF, UM, Vervain and the rest have said that every time they call something empowering it is because they want to sell us something. You don’t feel sexy honey? Buy this stupid pole for $400 and you will feel empowered.
I think the whole thing is really stupid. I especially like the “unleash the sexual kitten� thing. If I want to unleash my sexual kitten, (whatever that means) I’d much rather have a lovely boy perform for me while I sit back and enjoy than the other way around.

Ultra, you and I need to hook up and watch Trainspotting.

Or, really, even, we could just do a Ewan McGregor marathon. God I love that man...

Well, no shock. From courtesans to "good" marriages, women have always been able to use their bodies to make their way economically. I don't think I'd call it empowering, though.

In response to Donnie D, while I never sat down and did the math, I would say that a very small percentage of my customers are highly unattractive, and the latter two categories split down the middle. However, in a college town, I get a lot of young men, so that may throw the national average off. I get a surprising amount of very attractive women who come in, without men, for a good time.

And as I see it, what I define as empowering is taking back what others consider 'unlady like', such as pole dancing. I do it for my own gratification, and it has the added benefit of paying rent. I use this job to sustain independence.

And yes, it is taboo. It's scandalous to so many people, to be sexually liberated on your own terms, to do what YOU define as sexually arousing to yourself, this is not considered 'nice.'

For the record, almost all of the girls I work with are feminist. We live on our own terms.

But why are articles such as this one always telling women that "to be sexually liberated on your own terms" almost always means being sexual in the way that men have always wanted? I don't think these choices are made in a vaccuum.

I disagree that it's taboo. Stripping is practically everywhere you look these days.

And, for the record, nobody here has implied that you and your co-workers aren't feminist. We've been talking about the way that female sexuality has been presented as being synonymous with sexual objectification.

Does dancing or dressing in these ways, ways that are popularly considered "sexy," make you feel "sexy"? Sure, why wouldn't they? After all, you're behaving in the way you've been taught a "sexy" woman behaves. Or dresses. Or dances. But I question that this is really a case of women "embracing their sexuality." To my knowledge, women don't achieve any inherent sexual gratification from wearing fishnet stockings and garters, or swinging around a pole. I think we feel those things are "sexy" only because we were taught to associate them with sex. And a lot of things we’re taught to associate with being "sexy" women seem more aligned with arousing a (presumably male) viewer--dancing, dressing up--than they are with arousing or satisfying ourselves.

Vervain, this is perfect. Since I'm still in college, it is so easy to slip into this kind of thinking, due to the nature of the environment. Even my female (and gay male) friends and I comment on how sexy we all look -- and we mean it as a compliment. (And it feels good, I admit, to hear it, so it's also hard to combat.) But since you've put it so succinctly, I can explain the problem to them better than I have been. Thanks!

I agree, Vervain, but I also think that because we've all been raised in this culture, that we've deeply internalized those ideas of what sexy is, so that it does become genuinely arousing.

What we then do with the psychic and social fall-out from that is the question I find most interesting. It's sort of like what the protagonist of Angela Carter's short story "The Bloody Chamber" wrestles with when she's faced with the fact that she's aroused by the sadism that is going to lead to her death.

"I disagree that it's taboo. Stripping is practically everywhere you look these days."

I disagree. A politician is seen in a strip club, it's headlines all over and the man may very well see his last term as a politician. Strip clubs are policed like we are out to get their children with various laws that restrict how close we can get, what skin may or may not show. The clubs are often located AWAY from 'normal' business places due to zoning ordinances. Introduce a stripper to a group of women (yes, women) and watch their reaction. The very concept of stripping is taboo.

And I understand that no one insinuated that my coworkers are not feminist, but it was insinuated that women gratifying male fantasies is not an empowering thing for women to do, and that it does not advance women.

Would it not be far more empowering and less of a cooptation if all these women learning to pole dance were to join COYOTE and do some serious lobbying to decriminalize sex work, improving circumstances for sex workers, and breaking down the stigma and stereotypes about them?

Well, in all honesty, that's where we disagree. I don't think that gratifying male fantasy is an unusually empowering thing for women to do--it's exactly what men have used women for for ages. And patriarchy has, sometimes, rewarded women who fulfill those fantasies, though not consistently and in a way one could count on.

Stripping is often socially condemned, but that's not the same thing as taboo. Stripping has become a very visible presence in popular culture, and I really can't remember the last time a politician had a scandal surrounding stripping. Smoking marijuana, for instance, is socially condemned in some circumstances, but I wouldn't say it's taboo, despite being illegal.

woa, I'm confused by this:
"And I understand that no one insinuated that my coworkers are not feminist, but it was insinuated that women gratifying male fantasies is not an empowering thing for women to do, and that it does not advance women. " -Symbal.

I agreed with much that you said but now I'm confused. Gratifying men can be empowering (at least to me) but gratifying anyone is empowering to me. And sex is often confused with power... but I don;t think that putting ones self in a constant role to please men advances women at all..

Not to say anything about stripping however cause I know there are plenty of personal reasons why people choose to strip for anyone, for that matter.

Gratifying men can be empowering (at least to me) but gratifying anyone is empowering to me.

Can you expand on this, because I don't follow. Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by empowering?

Roymac- I meant like sexually gratifying others, i find it empowering. But maybe thats just me.

Perhaps I don't have a proper understanding of the word.

Well, I think there's a difference between something being personally empowering and being, for lack of a better word, politically empowering. I may find it personally empowering to fulfill my boyfriend's sexual fantasies (or not, really), because it reassures anxieties I might have about my sexual appeal, because I like him and like to think I can make him happy, because we have similar fantasies so it works out well, whatever. But that personal experience does not mean that what I have done is politically empowering, i.e. that it has done anything to alter my status power-wise in the larger world.

EG,

oh ic. So your saying the stripping does have some bearing on the power you exert in the larger world?

I'm going to again agree with EG that stripping isn't "taboo" in this culture. Women are now allowed into strip clubs with men or by themselves. Politicians are a special class of people held to a standard by what we call "conservatives" who also don't agree with divorce and yet divorce isn't taboo anymore than stripping is.

I'm going to reiterate the point that I, EG and SC have been saying: Why is it that "empowering" only comes from things that have been and are sexually pleasing to men?

A women didn't come up with Playboy and yet Hugh Hefner to his dying day will say it's empowering for women. A women didn't come up with Girls Gone Wild. Though there are plenty of women in the porn industry who make money from their own bodies, those women are few and far between if you count ALL the women in porn, ESPECIALLY the gonzo porn that's going around now (with some GGW thrown in) which doesn't give women power at all. A t-shirt and a trucker hat won't help you to Jenna Jameson status and I see that as a way of men re-reclaiming porn for themselves.

We're not saying that for each individual woman it's not "empowering" to feel "sexy" but it's still within the context of what hetro men defined as "sexy."

As a (new) burlesque dancer, I dance with an all-woman troupe where the dancers have complete creative control and decide how much they want to take off. Most go down to pasties and a thong (myself included), but some, including the most vanilla-hot woman of the bunch (tall, slim, big perky boobs), only go down to bras and covered bottoms. For me, the experience has been wildly empowering as a means of expressing my sexuality, creativity, and straight-up courage to a mixed group of men and women, who, perhaps knowing they are not at a "real" strip club, have been unanimously supportive and respectful. There is something about the burlesque revival that I really love, as a feminist and creative person. Not at all to disparage dancers like Symbal, but the whole vibe feels quite removed from the traditional sex-power dynamic of mainstream porno and strip clubs, and infused with a real sense of humor. It's less about the body parts than the story being played out on stage. Sure, the whole thing is driven by an engine of titillation and a certain acknowledgement of the male lens, but it's done almost in SPITE of that--the tease, to me, becomes almost a satire, like "Okay, you want to see my tits? Only on MY sparkly, feathery, ass-kicking terms!"

And yes, we get paid, but for me at least, I'd do it for free and usually put my earnings into costume fixin's.

"This concept definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The smug sense of privilege bothers me--if you're doing it 'for fun!' you're cheered on for 'empowering' yourself, but if you do it to pay your rent, it's suddenly unseemly and risky and degrading?"

Maybe the idea is that if you can afford to stop when you want to stop then it's less risky but if you cannot afford to stop when you want to stop then it's more risky?

This is definitely tangled up with feminism, sex culture issues, and so on.

But I'm just wondering if it's also an outgrowth of the artist/professional dichotomy. Like, any artist who makes money is a "sellout" and a "hack". If you do it for the fun, you're an artist. If you do it for the money, you're a sellout.

I agree with Vervain and EG. My problem with the embrace of "stripper culture" is that it often seems very prescriptive to me. If you are a woman and you don't like to dress like a Playboy Bunny, then you're sexually repressed. It doesn't acknowledge that different women are turned on by different things.

If you really get a sexual charge from pole dancing, then that's great. I would never want to pole dance. It's just me. But I know what I like, I'm not afraid to ask my partner for it, and I get it. And If I don't have a partner, I take matters into my own hands (couldn't resist the pun). I think that's a true measure of being sexually liberated.

EG, and others - I wasn't saying we don't feel sexy or derive some satisfaction from acting "sexy"--we do feel sexy when we do those things. I was just saying we ought to question why we think those things are sexy in the first place. Because I think "sexy" is a social construction. How much of what we consider sexy is based in what we've been taught is sexy? If Hugh Hefner had preferred small-breasted brunettes (and generations of men had grown up jerking off to that image instead of a busty blonde) would we have a different notion of what a "sexy" woman looks like today?
(I wonder weird stuff like that...)

Ultra, you and I need to hook up and watch Trainspotting.
Or, really, even, we could just do a Ewan McGregor marathon. God I love that man...

Can I get in on this? I'll bring my copy of Velvet Goldmine...
*waggles DVD case temptingly*

No, I completely understand and agree with that, Vervain. What I was wondering is where we go from there. I think that it's possible to understand that social construction but still, having grown up in this culture, have those responses. And then what do we do?

I'm not sure, actually. Beyond being aware of where the ideas come from, I don't think we can ever fully divorce ourselves from it. How much of what we define as "sexy" is based in perception, and how we look to someone else? (I'm talking both men and women, here). Is it all external? If so, does that mean a person can't be (or feel) sexy unless an outside observer validates it? Does a "sexy" person cease to be sexy when no one's around to look at them, or in the absence of a mirror?
It's like a zen riddle, isn't it? ;)
In any case, I do think it's better to examine our motives and desires and really try to understand them, rather than just adhering to what we're told we should desire. At least then, even if we end up catering to some of the social construction, we have a better understanding of ourselves and our personal desires rather than just a societal template to act out.
Self-knowledge is something I do consider empowering.

I completely agree!

For Vervain and LF:

Let's not forget the Pillow Book *smiles*

I'll bring the popcorn.

Verv, you and your DVD are SOOO invited.

This'll be sweet.

Hi there, im new here :)

I also think one issue which we are missing here is that pole-dancing is being marketed to women as a way to "workout, tone up and get into shape." This in and of itself is a problem as women are encouraged into physical exercise, not for health benefits & enjoyment but, as aforementioned, to look better. I see this as a major problem for anyone saying pole-dancing is empowering (maybe liberating..but not empowering) as dominant social expecatations of female beauty are used to keep women subjegated.

I also beleive that liberation on an individual level doesnt necessarily mean that women as a whole are empowered. I agree that women should be able to choose to live as they wish and if pole-dancing makes them feel liberated then great, but the fact is that pole-dancing has been 'borrowed' from an industry that locates the female body as an object to be consumed by the 'male gaze' and is still thought of in those terms. To me, this seems to mean that no matter how liberated you personally feel, you are not challenging the overriding patriarchal expectations of feminine sexuality.

Phew!! Sorry that was so long - im actually doing my Honours thesis on Pole Dancing and so have a lot to say on it.....it was great to read all of your opinions too! :)

Hi there, im new here :)

I also think one issue which we are missing here is that pole-dancing is being marketed to women as a way to "workout, tone up and get into shape." This in and of itself is a problem as women are encouraged into physical exercise, not for health benefits & enjoyment but, as aforementioned, to look better. I see this as a major problem for anyone saying pole-dancing is empowering (maybe liberating..but not empowering) as dominant social expecatations of female beauty are used to keep women subjegated.

I also beleive that liberation on an individual level doesnt necessarily mean that women as a whole are empowered. I agree that women should be able to choose to live as they wish and if pole-dancing makes them feel liberated then great, but the fact is that pole-dancing has been 'borrowed' from an industry that locates the female body as an object to be consumed by the 'male gaze' and is still thought of in those terms. To me, this seems to mean that no matter how liberated you personally feel, you are not challenging the overriding patriarchal expectations of feminine sexuality.

Phew!! Sorry that was so long - im actually doing my Honours thesis on Pole Dancing and so have a lot to say on it.....it was great to read all of your opinions too! :)