."Feminist" somehow became a tainted word along the way," says Hill.

Yeah. Somehow.
*eyeroll*

I am a grad student who teaches undergrad classes, and last semester I found out that several of my students were getting a big kick out of calling me a feminist behind my back (ah! they found me out!), and laughing about the fact that I was supposedly pushing a "feminist agenda" - whatever that means! Pushing for discussions about equality and gender issues! Boy, was I disappointed in them. When I asked them what they knew about feminism, not one of them could even define it.

We then played a game I invented called "Tally up the Authors" in which I asked them to tell me to stop making tally marks on the board when I reached the number of male authors we'd read, and then the same went for female authors. They were shocked that we'd read more male authors. I guess a few short stories about violence against women were just too much for them.

I don't mean to say that they all had the same reactions, but the overall attitude was that I was either an odd mystery, an agenda pusher, or a silly little girl who wanted them to think about gender issues in literature. I'm pretty sure that only one student in the class took what I was saying seriously that day. It's also worth noting that one student said, "We knew you had a boyfriend, so you couldn't be that bad of a feminist."

I feel sad to think that these "experts" might have a point, at least when referring to most college students, for example. I would have been happy if my students had just been willing to think and listen and learn instead of turn lazy and unreflective. Go ahead and reject the label if you want, but at least think about it!

Sorry for the enormous post.

I don't really find their statements so outrageous. Among young people the word "feminist" has such a negative connotation. It's frustrating, but it's true. Even women who are, in every sense of the word, feminist, often refuse to self-identity as such. It's pretty fucked up. So I agree that, "Feminist somehow became a tainted word along the way." It would be more relevant, though, if the authors would examine why exactly that is.

I had issues with the way they characterized a lot of these words. To me it sounds like they should call it the "Trendy Politically Correct Lexicon". Whatever happened to simply asking people "what do you prefer?" Some of my friends like being called "dyke". I prefer "queer" for myself. Others define themselves differently. I understand the need for a lexicon as a tool with regards to writing and addressing people in public, but personally it seems more like a "these are safe words" list for those people (mainstream straight white America) outside of the minority communities to use.

And "feminist" is a tainted word so that means we should stop using it? If we can reclaim "bitch" and "whore", as the article claims, why not "feminist"?

I think you're shooting the messenger here. I think the 'experts' are simply reflecting what seems to be common on college campuses today. As a grad student, I can only concur.

The only women I see on campus who explicitly use the term 'feminist' for themselves are the more activist types (or lesbian/bi).

That does not mean, as you may fear, that other women are not concerned about women's issues or not aware or not fighting for them. They just seem to avoid the 'feminist' label.

Some friends of mine, when they do talk about women's issues, usually say, 'ok, I am gonna put on my feminist hat now' or something like that.

I am no expert, of course, but I just think that being feminist has somehow become conflated with being un-'feminine'. Blame the patriarchy for this or whatever, I don't really care. But it just seems that these women just want the choice of being more or less 'activist' as and when they choose to. But then, isn't that what feminism is all about...greater choice?

If you haven't read The Mommy Myth by Susan Douglas and Meredith Michaels, get it. It addresses the issue of young feminism. It also addresses why feminist is such a bad word. They bring up CRAP - the Committee for Retrograde Antifeminist Propaganda and really help in detailing the ways in which feminism has been attacked and rehistoricized. Plus, it's a great, funny read.

I know it has only been within the last couple of years when I have said, "Yes, I am a feminist" without wanting to qualify it somehow. That's something I struggled with - not wanting to be thought of in a negative light. And then I realized, that's exactly why I am a feminist - so that I can express myself and my equality without judgment.

I don't think "feminist" has come to mean "unfeminine" as much as "crazy biotch" to some people. To call oneself a feminist should not automatically equate with "activist" though they often walk hand in hand. I think if people understood that most women are feminists by definition because they believe in equal rights and equal respect, they would have a more positive view of the word. Unfortunately, "feminist" has become a word that ignorant people (especially boys and men) toss around to ostracize a woman who actually stands up for herself and/or her sex.

"Unfortunately, "feminist" has become a word that ignorant people (especially boys and men) toss around to ostracize a woman who actually stands up for herself and/or her sex."

A huge, and in my experience, flawed generalization.

A lot of college women also use the term 'feminist' as a ostracizing term. (Ok, I know, they've been brainwashed by the patriarchy and all that...so they can't really think for themselves (sarcasm:-/ )

A lot of modern boys/men don't use the 'feminist' word as a slur (it may be to avoid sounding un-PC in public, like the n-word).

A lot of women who stand up for their rights under different circumstances would not label themselves as 'feminist'. They are just people standing up for themselves.

Again, this is just anecdotal experience for me, so feel free to differ.

I have the t-shirt. It says:

Use the F Word
FEMINISM

As far as I know, Barnard College (my alma mater!) is still selling them. There's also the classic "This is what a feminist looks like."

"A huge, and in my experience, flawed generalization."

And in my experience, a word all too often thrown around by some men and women who think simply because I have a strong opinion and am not afraid to express it, that I am a "feminist" and use this word as a derogatory slur against me. I'm not trying to generalize all people, just the ones who use the term like some slur.

Depending on what type of feminist you are and how you define the term, if you see "standing up for themselves" as not a part of feminism, I would argue that it is. Hence, you can argue that any woman who "stands up for themself" is a feminist.

Sadly, I feel that feminism is a dirty word for many women. This recent interview with Kelis illustrates the point:

Interviewer: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Kelis: No.

Interviewer: Why not?

Kelis: There's a really negative connotation with the word feminist. I have no penis envy. I love being a woman, I love women. I think we are special and spectacular in so many different ways, but the connotation behind feminism is generally that we hate men; you know, we don't shave our legs. But if the word feminist just means a female who is comfortable in her own skin and doesn't apologise for it, then yes. I don't apologise for being a woman or being who I am.

And yet, Kelis, you apologise for being a feminist... you couldn't possibly be one...

Disappointing, but typical of many women I know.

I, however, am a feminist.

I don't know, Raj, I've seen a lot of people throw around "feminism" like it's an insult. When I was working on my undergrad, it was pretty common to hear people accuse "outspoken" (read "intelligent, vocal, forward thinking") women of "sounding like a feminist." *gasp*

At the last job I had, a young woman confronted me about the fact that I consider myself a feminist- "But, isn't that weird? I mean, do you hate yourself?"
I stared at her blankly for a second- "What are you talking about?"
"Because you're a man."

Yes. Because feminists hate men.

I mean, in your own comment, you make a comparison between "feminist" and "the n-word" for gods' sakes.

Gah.

As the author of "A Politically Correct Lexicon," I in no way meant to disparage feminism. The idea behind the story wasn't to define what was correct or not correct, but rather to examine how terms have evolved and how they are viewed.
The people I quoted, including Tracy Baim who defines her self as a feminist, commented on the fact that many young women shy away from the term As several folks have noted above, this is particularly true of less politically active/involved young women. I have no doubt that anyone who has recently taught at a campus where discussions of feminism come up in the classroom will have noticed this. Perhaps what's needed is a campaign to reclaim feminism, however for that to work at least part of the impetus has to come from those under 25.

"Feminism" has gone the way of "liberal" in my experience with women and men my age and younger (late 20s). We're "progressives" now because the campaign against the term liberal has been so distructive and complete. I don't think it's harmful to recognize this, and that fighting against it makes it worse. I'm not saying we should choose a new word or phrase, but it's like one of those water torture games- the more you pull, the worse off you are. If women aren't relating to the term right now, we need to find a way to relate to them and eventually bring the term back to its original power.

Turining feminism into the 'f' word is an old school woman-bashing technique. I was called a feminist by the same people who bashed me as dyke, whore, slut, etc, before I even knew what those words meant.

In my experience, it is the older women in my life who do not identify as feminists...anecdotal.

Teaching younger women and girls what feminism is and means us definitely a part of continuing the work of feminism. We can't expect them to 'campaign to reclaim' faminism if they don't know wtf it is...

Coincidentally, I just wrote an article for my work newsletter about 'using the f-word'. funny.

When I was in college, I also worked for a conservative talk radio station. All day, I got to listen to Rush Limbaugh carping about the "feminazis", and all night I'd get to hear about how the feminazis were ruining everything...at one of the more liberal schools out there.

I've always been a feminist, but for most of my young life, I didn't know it. It wasn't a term that got talked about...at least not in a positive way. Recently, I got into an argument with my father about abortion rights, and he spat out that I sounded like a "lefty-feminist" as if that was the most vile insult he could think of.

I think there has been a shift in the term toward the negative. There are times when I wonder if I shouldn't keep silent about being a feminist because many would argue that I fit the stereotype. It seems we're stuck with having to try and overcome the stereotype to be appealing, but without excluding those who do. Perhaps this is why there is so much argument over Second-wave/Third-wave/Post-Feminism/etc. Maybe we're trying so hard to change, we're segmenting.

Interesting topic. My partner doesn't consider herself a feminist, even though by any exterior measure, she is. I (male, white, well educated, etc.) consider myself a feminist, in that I try to be aware of bias, control structures, and interpersonal issues that hinge on cultural templates.

She thinks I spend too much time worrying about it. As far as the generational thing goes, we're both in our thirties, and went to NE private schools. I dropped out, she didn't.

On the one (possibly overly optimistic) hand, perhaps the general ideals of feminism have become so normalized that they're just seen as part of daily life.

On the other hand, younger people seem to have a strange, ahistorical view of what movements have brought about opportunities for them in the modern era that the whole "I'm not a feminist, but...." thing really chaps my ass.

Women who aren't barefoot in the kitchen but refuse to identify as feminists annoy my a little. I realize I should be more accepting of other people's views and all that... but I'm tired and cranky and avoiding work.

How can a woman VOTE and then say she's not a feminist? How can she inherit money and say she's not a feminist? How can she go to a female doctor or become one herself? Travel by herself? Make her own decisions about her life and finances?

To women who don't live in the most traditional of gender roles but won't call themselves feminists: can you explain all of this to me?

Okay, I need to get back to work.

Thanks for the comment, Joel. I didn't think you were trying to disparage feminism at all, I was just questioning what Baim and Hill were trying to get across. I've said similar things myself to what Baim said in certain conversations about young women identifying themselves as feminists, but that comment along with Hill's particularly within the actual context of the article made it seem like they were saying that the younger political generation is abandoning the word.

We know that many women shy away from the term and I agree that this is necessary to address, but I think that someone who doesn't know this and reads that article with the intent of actually learning what's "politically correct" may misread what's being said, ya know? Regardless, I agree that we need a campaign to reclaim the word. I, unfortunately, am not under 25 : )

Thanks for the comment, Joel. I didn't think you were trying to disparage feminism at all, I was just questioning what Baim and Hill were trying to get across. I've said similar things myself to what Baim said in certain conversations about young women identifying themselves as feminists, but that comment along with Hill's particularly within the actual context of the article made it seem like they were saying that the younger political generation is abandoning the word.

We know that many women shy away from the term and I agree that this is necessary to address, but I think that someone who doesn't know this and reads that article with the intent of actually learning what's "politically correct" may misread what's being said, ya know? Regardless, I agree that we need a campaign to reclaim the word. I, unfortunately, am not under 25 : )

This is a really interesting discussion. I am 25 and I consider myself a feminist and always have since I learned what the word meant. But I just realized that I don't know that I would tell my coworkers or some of my friends that I'm a feminist, because I don't know what their reaction would be. As I get older, however, I think I am getting more comfortable with just saying, "this is who I am". I think I should get one of those "this is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts :)

Stanford University does not have a Women's Studies department or major, but rather one called Feminist Studies. I personally like that because I think that feminism and the study of it should go beyond a focus solely on women. For me, feminism is about equality and freedom from rigid gender roles for both sexes.

Does anyone know if any other schools call their departments Feminist Studies rather than Women's Studies?

sbsanon: I know some schools offer "feminist studies" but their departments have names like "Gender, Women, and Sexuality" (U of MN), but UCSC has a Feminist Studies Dept.

I think you might be on to something here. :) I wonder if Women's Studies Depts. differ in their curriculum and focus versus a Feminist Studies Dept. Anyone who has been involved in either want to weigh in? I was a Theatre and English major and have got nothing.

"Feminism has gone the way of liberal in my experience with women and men my age and younger (late 20s). We're progressives now because the campaign against the term liberal has been so destructive and complete. I don't think it's harmful to recognize this, and that fighting against it makes it worse."

Progressives have reclaimed the word liberal so maybe younger feminists will reclaim feminist. After they read Jessica's book, of course.

Is it too far fetched to propose that all/many universities add women's studies as part of their core curriculum? I'd like to think it wouldn't be, though I'd imagine the backlash would be terrible.

Still, though. I can dream.

I recently read Ariel Levy's WONDERFUL book "Female Chauvinist Pigs". Levy suggests that the "younger generation" (my generation) does not identify with the term "feminist" because it is so strongly related with 1960's/70's radicalism and thus with the values of their parent's generation. She contends that just as today's youth don't call themselves "hippies" or "beats" they also won't call themselves something as "antiquated" as "feminist".

Being a member of the generation of which Levy speaks, I don't know if I agree with that fully. I think it is rooted in a broader reaction again all things "politically correct".

I do have some encouraging news to all of you who are concerned with the anti-feminist sentiments on college campuses. Feminism is alive and well at my school, and the majority of the students here are pretty vocal and proud about it. It is however a private all-women's college in Boston, so it is not in any way representative of reactions to feminism at your typical university.

Oh, and Vanessa, I know a lot of colleges call their programs "Gender Studies", which I would think has the same all-inclusive intent as calling a program "Feminist Studies".

^I meant the above would be an ideal way of remedying this rampant anti-f-word trend on college campuses.

As a college student myself, I see this kind of thing everywhere. Even on facebook. Search "feminism/feminists" in facebook groups and the number of anti-feminist results outnumbers pro-feminist groups 2:1, at least. Depressing to say the least.

Joel, you also got Asian wrong. We don't only append American after ethnicities (Chinese American, for example) but after Asian if no specific ethnicity is given.

Christina, I'm going to dream even bigger and hope schools and universities will not add and stir the histories of women and minority but fully integrate women and minorities into the curriculum. Integration means that everyone including women and minorities will have power in and over institutions such as schools and universities.

Well, I do not respect the fact that women (or men) do not call themselves feminists, unless of course, they want/expect nothing more of women then to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. It's feminism that has allowed us to do everything from wear pants, to drive cars, to vote, to join the military, to own property and to basically make our own way in life. Every PERSON who believes women should be able to make their own choices should embrace the term and fight the negative connotation every step of the way!

This is why whenever I hear a snarky comment about feminism, especially coming from a woman, I make it a point to make them understand that without feminism, things would be a lot different for both sexes. And I make it a point to tell any female college student that acts disgusted with the term Feminist that she wouldn't even be in school right now trying to get that degree if it weren't for feminism. I wear it proudly that I am a feminist and I try to encourage women who care about their rights to call themselves feminists.

i grew up thinking that "feminist" was a bad word. a lot of that was because my parents worship Rush Limbaugh. scary, i know.

i think i was always a feminist but because i grew up in a southern, conservative, fundamentalist christian home, i had no way to express it. my first (and only) year of christian college i wrote a paper about feminism in the church and whether or not "christian feminism" was an oxymoron. after that everyone started calling me a feminist. it was a small school, so word traveled fast and people i didn't know started saying "oh yeah, you're the feminist girl". i was mortified...

until i realized that i really WAS a feminist. and that the word shouldn't scare me just because people don't always respond to it well. and still, people (especially men...especially on first dates) say things like "wait, you're not a feminist, are you?" but now i can claim the label proudly, because i understand what it means, both to me and to other women who call themselves feminists.

but it took some time. and i had to grow up and get over negative feminist stereotypes that had been ingrained in me.

so all this rambling was basically just to say this: there's still hope.

i agree that a lot of young women reject the term, but i think as long as feminists are writing, teaching, speaking on campuses, and blogging (yay feministing!) it'll turn around.

This is Tracy Baim, quoted in the In These Times article. I am 44, and have identitifed as a feminist since probably age 10 (and lesbian-feminist since the end of high school). My quote about the word is merely as a messenger/observer. Even when I was in college, 1980-1984, my lesbian friends rarely described themselves as feminists. I worked on anti-pornography (by creating a gay/inter-racial erotic film fest to counter Deep Throat being shown on campus), had a monthly feminist newsletter writing about rape on campus, the lack of women professors, etc. But many of the women who worked with me, or who played soccer on the team I started, still just didn't like the word feminist--and that was more than 20 years ago.

My point was that many of the younger women we write and report about (or who even work for me) simply do not use the label. They consider it old school. But they certainly are strong women and fit the definition of the term feminism, in my mind. If they choose other labels, it is not for me to force them, just as an older generation may have preferred the word "homosexual" or "homophile" to "gay." I am glad many younger women identify as feminists; but we have to remember that even many older women don't -- it's a simple reality. To me, as long as these younger women 1) are actually doing feminist work even if they don't call it that; and 2) don't attack women who do use the term "feminist", then it doesn't matter ... a rose by any other name ... will still help our movement.

To sum it up, I agree with the messages of hope--there is tremendous activism today, and every generation's activism is usually accomplished by a smaller portion of the most passionate and dedicated --in the 1970s, it took a hardcore group of feminist pioneers to change the course for all women, even those women who hated those "feminists." Even at the height of the women's movement of that era, you can bet our pioneers were frustrated by the lack of involvement of more women, and by being attacked by those who would later benefit greatly.

Thanks for the dialogue on this topic; I actually had not known about this web site, so it's a nice benefit to being attacked for my observations, to find out about this feminist resource :)

I've thought of myself as feminist since I was a child, because I liked to play with Legos as well as dolls. I still don't have a problem calling myself feminist.

"Women who aren't barefoot in the kitchen but refuse to identify as feminists annoy my a little. I realize I should be more accepting of other people's views and all that... but I'm tired and cranky and avoiding work."

There's a good comeback in there, though.

"[Bla bla bla feminists are bad bla bla bla]"
"Wait a minute, you're OK with [women working outside the home/girls learning to read/whatever], that means you're a variety of feminist yourself!"

Yeah, I identify as a feminist, having realised this slowly over the course of my late teens/early twenties (I'm under 25). Alot of the self-realisation developed after hearing both male and female acquaintances repeatedly make extremely sexist remarks.

I'm wary about revealing my feminism in work/life situations. I had a nasty shock one particular time when a guy at work started ranting about 'feminazis' etc. There's a lot of hate out there towards women who dare to stand up. However, I feel more confident about standing up for what I believe in when I read others online who think the same.

I'll have to post about this at my place soon, but every semester I ask my students to write journal entries on this very topic. And the percentage of female college students willing to "claim the name" has gone up recently. The stigma has lifted, at least for some. Anecdotal, sure, but it's encouraging.

How can a woman VOTE and then say she's not a feminist? How can she inherit money and say she's not a feminist? How can she go to a female doctor or become one herself? Travel by herself? Make her own decisions about her life and finances?

You can't inspire people with successes from the 1920s. It's not just that feminists can't do that, but that every political party or movement that tried doing that failed. It's perfectly acceptable to support something a movement achieved 90 years ago but not support its ideological descendants. After all, the Red Army marched under the same banner as the union organizers who got 40-hour-workweek laws on the books.

lilianna writes:
"Feminism" has gone the way of "liberal" in my experience with women and men my age and younger (late 20s). We're "progressives" now because the campaign against the term liberal has been so distructive and complete. I don't think it's harmful to recognize this, and that fighting against it makes it worse.

I don't think the campaign against "liberal" or "feminist" has been entirely destructive or complete, except when it comes to cowardly politicians.

I also don't buy into the "struggling makes it worse" argument. That's the argument imposed on every civil rights movement--"better keep a low profile because the tall nail gets the hammer"--and it has never proven to be permanently true.

Cheers,

TH

I do think that the more radical feminists are also partly to blame. I also see a lot of women on campus who call themselves 'feminist' explicitly, also actively deriding other women for indulging in 'girlie' activities (I dunno...shopping for pink lacy things? :D). Of course, I also see women who are unafraid to apply the 'feminist' label to themselves and equally comfortable with being 'feminine' (whatever that implies).

I do think this division between being 'feminist' and being 'girlie' is somewhat artificial, and feminists themselves contribute to it as much as anyone else.

"How can a woman VOTE and then say she's not a feminist? How can she inherit money and say she's not a feminist? How can she go to a female doctor or become one herself? Travel by herself? Make her own decisions about her life and finances?"

"You can't inspire people with successes from the 1920s."

Thos issues aren't just from the 1920s, in some parts of the Third World they're still being argued today.

Personally, I have to say that the reason many people are so aprehensive about feminism is because of the actions of feminists. Many actions carried out by feminists seem either unnecessary or hypocrytical. As a light example, Paleblue, the grad student, had her class list all the male and female authors they had read that semester. In all honesty, who cares? An idea is an idea regardless of which mind it came from, regardless of what sex the person is.

I've also looked at the federal and state level actions taken by feminists. Title IX allows for male exclusion from female sports even though it's embeded in a law designed to eradicate sex discrimination in education. Domestic violence statistics are often unethically presented in a misleading fashion (i.e., pairing the 85% figure from the NCVS with the 6 million figure from the NFVS). Then there are the out-right lies made by feminists. Whether it's the Super Bowl hoax, the World Cup sex trafficing scandal, the 2% figure for false accusations of rape (because there have been no studies on the subject), or any of the popular domestic violence factoids (i.e., DV is responsible for more injuries than rape and car accidents combined).

I was raised to believe that the sexes are inherently equal. Then I learned that feminism spark this sexual equality movement. Now I learn that many of the more radical members of this theory are outright hypocrites and liars; and none of the moderate members have opposed them.

People, especially men, have reason to be distrustful of feminism. It has nothing to do with a belief in innate sexual roles, a desire to "go back to the stone age", or anything of the sort.

Another reason that I believe makes people aprehensive about feminism is that it relies on a subjective theory of morality. I must admit this is only personal observation and may not apply to everyone. I think if feminism adopted the objective philosophy of Ayn Rand it'd gain greater favor with the more androgynous youth of today.

........

"It's feminism that has allowed us to do everything from wear pants, to drive cars, to vote, to join the military, to own property and to basically make our own way in life."

I'm going to stir the pot on this one with you, Chathrine. It's the inherent individual right to life which has given women all these things, including feminism. We should give credit where it's due because without these individual rights feminism wouldn't exist.

If you read carefully, Ivy, you'll note that paleblue totted up the number of authors by gender that she taught in response to student assumptions that she was unfairly favoring female authors. The stats proved that she was not, and exposed the students to the ways in which more than a minimum number of women in a group is perceived to be "overwhelming" compared to the standard number of zero or one.

Are you really arguing that feminism's notion of morality is subjective but that Ayn Rand's is objective? I know that Rand called her point of view objective, but that doesn't make it so.

People, especially women, have reason to be grateful for feminism. Men aren't "suspicious" of feminism because they're such sticklers for inclusion in women's sports teams. Men fight feminism because they don't want to give up their special privileges.

EG, your reaction to my post is exactly why egalitarians like myself are wary of feminism. What special privledges? There's nothing special about being born male.

I just reread the post made by Paleblue to make sure I didn't make a mistake. I'd apologize if I did, but it seems that you've misquoted Paleblue. Never did she mention that her students were reacting to her favoring female authors.

Your arguement that Ayn Rand is only objective because she says so is a subjective arguement. All philosophy is formed by examing the human condition in a vacuum then steadily adding elements of reality. When this is done, we see that human beings act on their environment in the most logical and advantageous way possible to ensure their survival. In this sense, action, and the fruits there of, are rights of life and must be respected. All the issues addressed by feminism can be fully examined and explained by objectivism. Furthermore, I'd like to point out that feminists were originally fighting for their individual rights, their right to life, to be protected; and still are to this day, though their efforts are much more consentrated.

Whatever good feminism has done does not exclude it from criticism nor incapable of wrongfullness. You are right when you say that men are not suspicious of feminism because they desperately want to involved in women's sports teams. They're suspicions are raised by the way the law is crafted. As I pointed out, Title IX makes sex discrimination legal for men but illegal for women. This is blatant hypocrisy.

When good feminists allow bad feminists to carry out sexist acts such as this in their name, is it any wonder people are unsure about what is feminism?

I tallied the number of female and male authors in front of the students, on the board, asking them when they thought I should stop making tally marks under each side (the sides marked 'male' and 'female'). I wanted to make the point that their perception was skewed. The way I found out about their "oooh, she's a crazy feminist" whispers is a long story, but the point is that I wouldn't have done what I did had my students not been complaining about my feminist leanings. EG's explanation of my goal is more articulate than mine. : )

I agree, Ivy, that what I did could seem pointless out of context. I was quite taken aback when I realized my students were reacting so oddly, and I felt the need to do something. The tally exercise was what I came up with. I would have been happier if my students had never complained, but I did feel better taking action than not. Granted, what I did only touched on one aspect of my students' relationship to feminism, but that's all I had the energy for. Plus, of course, it was an English course.

LOL. Thank you, Paleblue, for the clarification. :) Now I feel the need to clarify/qualify my remarks. I can only talk about this issue based on my life experiences.

Another member made a post which suggested that female figures simply be completely integrated into education curriculum. I agree with this. One of the most accurate critiques of academia made by feminists was the androcentrism which was (is?) prevalent. The problem, for me, is the special attention most teachers and professors give to female authors. For someone who has been told their entire life that similar behavior is unethical, such action completely confuses me. Typically, textbooks have entire sections dedicated to women alone, and they always put heavy emphasis on the discrimination they had to overcome. While behavior displayed by thsoe women is admirable, it does get boring after six to ten years.

I've recently started a History of Psychology course and the author of my textbook has a refreshing apporach to gender. In each era, female contributors to psychology, dating back to ancient Greece, are elegantly woven in along side their male contemporaries. It's put a new spin on an old theme which has rekindled my interst in the accomplishments of women.

When you shared your experiences with us, Paleblue, I assumed your students held sentiments similar to mine. Thanks again for the clarification. :)

No problem. :)

I really like the discussion here. I feel like I'm learning instead of watching head-butting.

Yeah, me too. :)

It's a shame most other conversations don't turn out that way.

Two fun stories about being a self-defined 23 year-old feminist and realizing that others think it's a dirty word:

First: at my housewarming party a month back I challenged my roommate's boyfriend about his views on the whole "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen" thing and whether or not he was going to subject my roomie to that when they got married. He answered well ("Only if she wants to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.") but a very good friend of mine coughed "feminist" during the conversation. Like you might say "bullshit" when you're not really trying to hide it.

Second: At a friend's going away party last night, had a conversation with two girls I know very well about my recent introduction to feminism since I graduated college and how it was shaping my career plans. One of the girls said "Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm definitely NOT a feminist." My only response to her was "Why the hell not? You're college educated! You want to be a firefighter! How could you not want the same rights and respect as any other human being?"

It seems like every week things teeter between "Wow! So much progress is being made all the time!" and "Holy shite! People still think like that?"

Ivy, I agree that all those things I listed are inherent individual rights of women, but it's feminism that has allowed women to practice them.

It's a woman's inherent individual right to control her body, but we see that right under attack everyday. It's feminism that has given us the limited reproductive rights we have today and feminism that will continue to protect it.

It's the inherent individual right of women in Pakistan and India to not be doused with fuel and set on fire because they dishonored their husbands. It's feminism in those countries that are making limited progress in stopping that practice.

It's the inherent individual right of women to not be trafficked and forced into sexual slavery. It's feminism that is working to provide other options (cottage industries) for women in lesser developed regions to keep them from being trafficked by unscrupulous employers.

It's the inherent individual right of women to get an equal education to men. It's feminism in all parts of the world that is shedding light on the inequality of education and forcing governments to provide education for girls and women.

It's the inherent individual right of women not to be raped. It's feminism that forces safer streets in the US, education programs in South Africa that teach HIV pos men that raping a virgin will not cure AIDS and it's feminism that sheds light on rape as weapon of war.

So while I agree with you that all of these are inherent individual rights, I AM giving credit where it's due to my ability to practice them....to feminism. I proudly wear the label and WILL fight the negative connotation every step of the way.

Dear Catherine, I never meant to imply that you shouldn't be proud of what good feminism has done. I simply make the argument because I've encountered too many feminists who believe that it's because of feminism that these individual rights exist. As you clearly know, this is not the case. I do, however, feel compelled to argue with you further on the subject. More for the benefit for others who might be "in the middle" and come along this topic.

Feminism is not the only philosophy capable of recognizing the individual rights of women though it certainly has been the first to recognize and fight for them. It is important, however, to ensure that the line here isn't blurred. Everything you mentioned in your post is a violation of a woman's individual rights whether feminism exists or not.

There is one thing in your post I'd like to disagree with regarding education. The role of government, in a free society, is not to provide anything to it's citizens. It's sole purpose is to protect the individual rights of it's citizens. That word, "provide", only applies to socialist states, monarchies, and dictatorships as these governments perceive the state as "higher" that the individual citizen. Government, in effect, confer rights onto it's citizens. This mentality is similar to that of feminists who believe that feminism confers individual rights onto women. It's this kind of mentatlity which I have been objecting to, Catherine. You're right to recognize all the good feminism has done and to be proud of it. But I think part of the reason youths of today are turning away from feminism is their perceived arrogance. Not solely. Partly. That is why I had to disagree with and propel this conversation in a constructive direction. As always, I hope my posts will shed some light on the subject for everyone.

I look forward to speaking with you in the future, Catherine. :) Keep fighting the good fight.

I am a psychology major and "Women and Gender Studies" minor. So, yes, at my university (University of Michigan) it is women and gender studies. The funny thing is, in my intro to women's studies class, there was a huge focus on feminist thought and theory. Of course in the Intro to Feminist Theory class that I took, there was a strong focus on it ;)

I too get frustrated when I hear young women say "I am not a feminist". I am a 32 year old mother who went back to school to finish her degree, had it not been for my strong foremothers, I would not have had that opportunity. I just wish that these young women would understand what it is really all about and that the stereotype of all feminist being male hating, masculine, miserable, and ugly, just isn't true.

A feminist is someone who believes in the political, economic, and social equality of women.

Every woman on the planet who doesn't belong in a mental ward should agree with that one.

Unfortunately, there is a feminist agenda. This site is full of such an agenda. People have said that you can't be a feminist and be pro-life. Is it ANY surprise that, with such opinions being absolutely explicit, that many women fail to identify themselves as feminists, because of the corresponding agendas?

If you want feminism to be embraced by all women, then it has to be detached from a specific agenda. The ultimate goal is for women to be treated as men - with all benefits and burdens - not to push specific policies.

I disagree, oenophile. Saying that the ultimate goal is for women to be treated as men implies that men, the way the are, and the way they treat each other is the human norm, and that women, the way we are, and the way we treat each other, is a deviation from that norm. Men are not a gold standard. The statement also ignores the way that masculine identity is inherently constructed around a hierarchy that devalues women and femininity. The fact is that there are many facets of women's lives and experiences that do not map onto a male norm--why should we jettison them or pretend that they don't exist?

Further, I don't see how feminism can or should avoid pushing specific policies. How can we actively work for the equality of women if confine ourselves to the world of abstraction?

I am one of those that says that you can't be anti-choice and a feminist. There is nothing feminist about forcing a woman to be pregnant and give birth against her will. You can be anti-choice and espouse other feminist positions, of course, such as equal pay for equal work.

EG, when you make statements like

The statement also ignores the way that masculine identity is inherently constructed around a hierarchy that devalues women and femininity.

How can you be surprised the feminism is a term young progressive women don't want to be associated with?

It is exactly that kind of attitude of denigating men and other similar hypocritical behaviour on the part of an extreme fringe that gives feminism the bad reputation the article and Ivy were talking about.

So critiquing masculinity is the same thing as attacking men? Masculinity is a dominant identity that requires as subordinated identity, just as the concept of whiteness is meaningless unless there's a corresponding category of blackness.

I sometimes get lost in third wave feminism which is less rigid in its categories and less explicitly political than the second wave which EG and I mostly subscribe to. Feminism technically should help all women so oenophile and dreampod have a point that even women who aren't pro-choice or rigid in categories should feel accepted in feminist movements. When I read Rebecca Walker's To Be Real about the third wave I felt lost and that anything goes in third wave which is why I lean towards the second wave. But feminism should help all women. Third wave feminism:

"Third-wave feminism seeks to challenge or avoid what it deems the second wave's "essentialist" definitions of femininity, which (according to the third wave) often assumed a universal female identity and over-emphasized the experiences of upper middle class white women. A post-structuralist interpretation of gender and sexuality is also central to much of the third wave and helps to account for its heightened emphasis on the discursive power and fundamental ambiguity inherent in all gender terms and categories. Third wave theory usually encompasses queer theory, women-of-color consciousness, post-colonial theory, critical theory, transnationalism, ecofeminism, and new feminist theory.

Third wave feminists often focus on "micropolitics," writing about forms of gender expression and representation that are less explicitly political than their predecessors. They also challenged the second wave's paradigm as to what is, or is not, good for females." (wikipedia)

I like the queer theory, women-of-color, post-colonial, transnational and class analyses of third wave feminism but don't adhere to "it's all good" feminism which takes away the whole point of feminism.