I agree. Black women in the media are expected to adhere to the white standard of beauty - rail thin with european features and while I'm a (slightly) healthier size is finally starting to enter mainstream media, I still think that it is nothing of an accomplishment that the new strong voluptous black woman is woman who's a size 6, but is still shaped like a white woman, and who feature wise still looks like a white woman.

Another thing that drives me crazy - notice the lack of dark-complected black women. Wesley Snipes, Samuel L. Jackson, Don Cheadle, Blair Underwood, and the incredible handsome and georgous Omar Epps and Mekhi Pfeifer. All black men with dark complextions, with features not traditionall found on Caucasions.

How many famous black women, or even just black women on TV or in commecials (all of which is lacking), do you find like that? Halle Berry, Biance, Thandi Newton, even Angela Basset?

Now this isn't to say that dark black women are any more "black", it always seems to me black women still have to conform to standards of Caucasion features that black men do not (at least in America).

I do agree with the fact that Beyonce and Trya are very small, but in regards to Beyonce: she had to take off 25 pounds for her movie DreamGirls, and in a recent interview for InStyle, she said that 'it wasn't her body and she didn't like it, and that she's planning to pu the weight back on.' She was a curvy woman twenty pounds ago, but I would never call her "big".

I find this dichotomy about what is beautiful for white women and women of colour (I'm thinking here of black women and Latina women in particular - J.Lo would be a good example of the latter in terms of what I'm describing) kind of baffling. I hadn't thought of it in terms of "white women as fragile flowers" before, but I think this might be pretty accurate. This might sound like a strange example, but (despite being white) I have a rather muscular and curvy shape that I haven't always been that comfortable with, and (shockingly) my friends and mother have often said things like "what a shame - black girls would love to have a body like yours". Which to me is so wrong on so many levels, but I think they were articulating the stereotyping this article addresses. I also think that Beyonce used to be a bit bigger - I recall something about her going on some kind of drastic diet recently and she's all-of-a-sudden been getting more attention. As if it's not enough that standards of beauty are unattainable, now if you don't fit in with your own race's stereotypes you're shot in the foot too. Sorry if this sounds rambling, it just brought to light something I've internalized so much personally and I'm interested to explore it further...

I think "full figured" is a euphemism for "hey, her boobs are real!"

I think it is more acceptable for a black woman to have curves and still be considered sexy instead of overweight.

I think it is harder to hide how emaciated these other models are when they are wearing only bikinis. As usual, I was disturbed by the ribs, hipbones, and collar bones on display. I am surprised they get away with it, but I am surprised by a lot of things the "fashion" industry gets away with.

I completely agree, especially with that last paragraph.

The other thing that struck me when I watched the video to "Irreplaceable," which I did like, was that Black hair is still sidelined. Think about how much of that video is Beyonce tossing her full, luxurious, straight locks of hair around.

I'm not sure, though, about Louise Jefferson et al. It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that such figures were in some ways descended from the "mammy" stereotype, which "allowed" older black women to be fat, stupid, nonsexual, and nonthreatening. It's been a while since I saw The Jeffersons, but I don't think that Louise was supposed to be a sexpot.

Just a thought about Louise Jefferson and Florida Evans - perhaps it was okay for them to be outside of the mainstream "acceptable" body because they were older women? Not "old," mind you, but not as young as Beyonce or Tyra. I think mainstream American tv accepts un-mainstream bodies on women when they're safely cast into a mother or grandmother role. Look at Doris Roberts from Everybody Loves Raymond or Roseanne. It's as if our culture is saying "Oh, she's a grandmother/mother - she doesn't have to be hot. But check out that daughter! [a size 0]"

Maybe you're forgetting about Eddie Murphy or Martin Lawrence in drag!

And you are misremembering, EG: Louise and George / Florida and James were very affectionate couples. As for not being a sexpot, well... neither was Jean Stapleton or (shudder) Bea Arthur.

Well, yes, but there's affectionate couples, and then there's "supposed to be sexually attractive to the viewer." I think we've seen a decline in both white and black women on TV who do not fall into the latter category.

What are you talking about, norbizness?

Bea is one fine lady!
What can I say, I like the older ladies.
^^

“it always seems to me black women still have to conform to standards of Caucasion features that black men do not (at least in America).� That’s exactly true, not just about skin tone but also about hair. Black men can have curly hair but black women can’t.

The women who are presented as sexual beings in the MSM are still fairly thin. The exceptions are on the fringe, and in that sense, I'm not sure that really full-figures women of color are more likely to be presented as sexually attractive than white women. The one that comes to mind is Cynthia Ettinger, from the cancelled and lightly watched but great HBO series Carnivale.

I wonder if there's room for black women not to be skinny if they're in music rather than in acting--I'm thinking of Missy Elliot, whom I love, and of Queen Latifah. I can't, off the top of my head, think of any comparably popular large white women who are stars, but I'm notoriously out of touch, musically. Is part of that that Elliot and Queen Latifah took on openly adversarial stances to beauty standards? Or are they musical "tokens" that serve to highlight the sex-kitten performers? One of the things that strike me about both of them is that in their music, they both seem to express complete confidence that they are desirable and desiring.

I think the media likes to highlight the "full figured" women to make it look like they're not the bad guys when it comes to eating disorders and promoting a size 0 life style. Like "Look, we ran Jennifer Hudson on the cover! Clearly we're not to blame for your daughter's plumeting self esteem. Ignore the models in the ads." Not to say these women are any less beautiful, but I don't see why we have to call special attention to the fact that big women can be as beautiful (or more so) than smaller women.

The tv show I've seen a black woman with a larger build and African features recently is Grey's Anatomy. Dr.Bailey is... well the word that comes immediately to mind is "stout" because of her height. Chandra Wilson is beautiful though, as is Sara Ramirez who also falls under the "full figured" category and who plays Dr.Torres. It's nice to see them balancing out the living twig which is Ellen Pompeo, who I find to be one of the least attractive women on that show.

I know this isn't the point, and I may get hanged here, BUT: isn't it also important to keep in mind that there is MASSIVE obecity epidemic in this country? I'm not advicating anorexia, or modeling as a sign of good health. But neither is Missy Elliot (even after her gastric by-pass, something else that is really dangerous and used way too often as a quick-fix for women). I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but sometimes, slimmer IS healthier. Lady Beyonce doesn't appear emaciated on the cover of the sports mag. She looks healthy. And a bit eager to please (which disturbs me as well).

For the same reason, Genny, I love S. Epatha Merkson on Law and Order, who gets to throw her figurative weight around as well as being a reasonable real weight, but she's a marginal character compared to the unnaturally twig-like, very young, and remarkably unprofessionally dressed women McCoy seems to continually be assigned as assistants.

Suissesse, that's actually not important to keep at mind with regard to the subject at hand. We're all aware of the obesity epidemic, and yes, it's just as unhealthy to be overweight as it is to be under, but are all of the people bemoaning the thickening of American thighs really all that concerned about our health? Or are they concerned that we don't fit an idealized image?

"OMG obesity!!!" is the usual response to posts concerning weight and women's body image, and it just has no relevance. Body image isn't "I shouldn't weigh this much because it puts me at risk for diabetes," body image is "I'm a fat heifer because some guy at school called me a lardass." And the guy calling her a lardass wasn't doing it because he was worried about her risk for heart disease.

Chandra Wilson briefly addressed this issue in her SAG awards speech, when she won for Grey's Anatomy:

"And last but not least, just to be able to take this thing home to my girls, in particular, and hold it in front of them and say, 'Look, with this skin and this nose, and this height, and these arms,' you know, 'I’m here!' Whoo!"

Well, yes, but there's affectionate couples, and then there's "supposed to be sexually attractive to the viewer." I think we've seen a decline in both white and black women on TV who do not fall into the latter category.

Agreed. My favorite sitcom-character of old (I'm young, but thank god for Nick at Nite!) is Carla from Cheers, beacuse she is just so awesomely mean and makes no apologies. I don't think we see her type much anymore.

I don't think Beyonce looks worrisomely skinny now, but I think she was fine 20 pounds ago too, and I have to say I hope she's serious about gaining the weight back. Agreed though that I hate when people are all like "curvy is in!!!" and then show off someone who is still skinnier than 99% of women (Scarlett Johannson comes to mind). Though, I usually think of myself as curvy and I am pretty skinny (I have a big butt for my size). Hmm maybe I need to rethink some things.

Thank you Lyra27 for making the distinction between the "obesity epidemic" and using body size as an acceptable way to discriminate. The dehumanizing tone of so much weight related discussions online is exhausting.

Okay, having looked at the Beyonce pics... yeah, since when did "your ribs aren't showing" equal "full figured"? Seriously. I'm not saying that a size 4 woman can't be curvy -- it depends on height and body shape -- but full figured? Probably not.

I have trouble during these discussions, because on one hand, it's great to see someone "mainstream" saying "stop holding up your unfair beauty standards to us", but then, as a size 18 woman, I realize that the person saying that is a size 6 at most, and it just seems... demoralizing. If Tyra banks is fat, what does that make me, a woman of perhaps twice her girth? I know it's not about me personally, it's about the fact that society has a collective tiny china doll in mind for all of us to emulate, but for those of us on the heavier end of the spectrum -- I've starved myself into a size 12, so I don't think a size 10 or below is anywhere in the cards for my future -- it gets difficult to talk about this, because you get the concern trolls accusing you of driving up everyone else's health cost because you're a fatty fat mcfatty fat pig who can't stop eating, and on the other, you've got these size 6 women yelling "kiss my fat ass", but... their asses aren't fat.

I don't have a point. Just rambling.

A few blunt observations:

1) Beyonce is not "full figured" in the sense that FF is a euphemism for overweight. She is "thick" and that's no better a box to be in, considering it indicates pressure for black girls feel to have cartoonish figures with proportions of 38-22-50. My point is that comparing the above pressure/appearance to "full figuredness" and reaching some sort of conclusion about FF being more acceptable among black women is bogus. Black patriarchy has NEVER lauded big 'ole stomachs. And that's not something that's suddenly changing. So let's get that straight.

2) No matter how Beyonce looks, or any model/singer/actress, there is a cult of women who will hate her, without fail, every single time. This is troubling to me.

3) Also, if Beyonce was pitch black, said women would STILL hate on her. Again, more evidence of a collective thinking pattern that needs some revision.

4) Feminism is about empowerment. When will we begin being empowered enough to start making better decisions about our health?

5) To the previous commentor, yes Weezy Jefferson and Flo from Good Times were big 'ole girls. But there was definitely not more of an acceptance at the time: Please direct your eyes to the flyest of the fly Coke bottle Thelma and Wilona, on the same show.

6) We can't end oppression WITH oppression. I'm troubled that bashing thin women (some of whom are GASP naturally thin) has become the in thing to do. ESPECIALLY when it involves promoting these stereotypes that all black women are walking around large and in charge. Not all black women look that way. And it's no more appropriate to suggest all black women are naturally thin than are naturally "curvy." That same sort of thinking (perpetuated inthe black community for a looooong time) is why, at age 15, I was ready to take body builder-strength weight gainers because "black women have curves."

A stereotype is a stereotype, and it's NOT empowering.

BTW: I'd also like to see the end of the whole "real women have curves" notion: I'm 5 ft tall and I weigh 112 lbs. Ain't I a (real)woman????

Samhita, I agree totally with every word you wrote!

Here's a terrific example of how BS-y this idea of "Beyonce=small" is: the actress America Ferrara, of Ugly Betty and Real Women Have Curves fame, is only a size 6!!! Here's the confirmation of this: http://www.styledash.com/2007/02/05/just-how-curvy-is-america-ferrara/

If this is the maximum acceptable size for a media-approved "attractive" American women -- well, all I can say is that we are screwed. Completely and utterly screwed.

While I'm here, let me also tackle the mention of "black women with Eurocentric features" being the only women accepted on magazine covers and the like.

Why is it, exactly, that if a black woman isn't black as coal, with a soul mama afro and a nose as wide as a truck, she has "European features"?

I can't help but feel, while folks seem to paternalistically think they are chiding "the media" for abusing black women, that this thinking is actually implying that if a black woman is attractive, the quality makes her European looking? So she's not attractive because she's European looking - she's European looking because she's attractive.

I hope it's not convoluted, but this is really something that's recently begun crawling under my skin. Are black women just supposed to look like Wesley Snipes?

"BTW: I'd also like to see the end of the whole "real women have curves" notion: I'm 5 ft tall and I weigh 112 lbs. Ain't I a (real)woman????"

THANK YOU, Aquafemme!

As a black woman who doesn't fit ANY of the prescribe notions of what black women should look like/have: thick thighs, round ass, etc. NOR do I have the features that white women are praised for: big breasts, straight hair (unless I straighten it, which still doesn't look "white") I find the "real women have curves" argument to leave me out along with the "real women have big breasts/etc" argument.

I'm neither stick thin nor "curvy" so where does that leave me in what's a "real" woman? I understand that women feel the need to fight the media system that they feel is putting them down but when you start touting what is and is not a real woman you're becoming no better than they are.

Ah the irony: I guess the ladies of Feministing failed to realize the lithe, curvey, barbie like figure that graces not one, but both sides of Feministing.com. Have you thought about putting up an androgenous fat chick. Then again, maybe we should just ask the lesbians which they'd rather fuck. Face it: beauty is objective. Only the ugly don't think so.

America Ferrara, good example. Not black, but it does seem that as she has gotten progressively thinner, she has also gotten progressively more successful. Coincidence?, or is it the same old Hollywood-ization of a young actress who is gorgeous just the way she is (was)? If you watch her in "Real Women Have Curves" or even "Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants", she was a good deal heavier back then than she is now....probably at least a 14 during RWHC....

I think she looks cute in 'Ugly Betty'.

But maybe that's just me.

Black girls are too concerned with trivial things like straightening their hair..My sister has fallen victum to this hair frenzy. Black women these days want to be chocolate colored with long hair. They're trying so hard to follow the European stereotype of beauty that it's a shame. I think people should embrace who they are no matter what they look like...Maybe that's just me.

America is definitely attractive and not at all fat -- but it should be noted she's a bit on the short size, which makes the size 6 number a little less shocking in terms of the notion of her as a "curvy" actress... a size 6 at her height is a bit bigger than a size 6 at, say, 5'6".

I'm pear-shaped, which means that even when I'm skinny skinny I have large hips/thighs/butt. At my adult skinny skinny skinniest (about 120 pounds and 5'7" -- this put my BMI at the very very low end of healthy, around 18ish) I generally wore a size 6 and occasionally squeezed into a size 4 pant, depending on the brand. However, I could wear a size 2 dress if the bottom was sufficiently forgiving.

I've always hated my bottom half, particularly considering at my heaviest I max out at a B/almost C cup, which seems incredibly unfair to me. The interesting thing is, every time I complain about it, almost without exception someone will point out to me that this makes me more attractive to black men. And, if I'm being a hundred percent honest, I do find that black men hit on me A LOT -- of course, I've got no way to compare this to how much they'd hit on me if I didn't have thunder thighs. It might just be that I'm just that hot ;)

But anyway. It's always struck me interesting that (1) people assume my angst about my body has much to do with men (really and truly, it doesn't. It's much more my desire to look like what *I* find attractive, which I will absolutely admit is culturally conditioned and is something I personally struggle against, but none of us is perfect) and (2) there seems to be this universal notion that different features appeal more or less to different races. As to how true (2) is, I think that would be really interesting to study.

As for the troll invasion... who's making the popcorn?

Aquafemme, I'm not trying to say skinny women, of any color, can't be beautiful, but that beauty is not dependent on the size of the woman in question. I don't think the size of the woman should enter into the conversation at all. If a woman is beautiful at a size 2, 12 or 20, then she's beautiful period.

I wonder if America Ferrera has just lost weight because she's been working so much recently. When she started getting attention she hadn't been doing a lot of work, but with the stress involved in being on a weekly TV show, I think it's understandable if she's lost a little weight naturally. Doesn't make her any less gorgeous as far as I'm concerned.

Beyonce et al only look "curvy" because they're not Kate Moss. Call me when they get someone in double-digit sizing. Until then, no one gets to call themselves "full-figured," "thick," or even straight up "large" unless they're under five feet tall or something.

P.S. I'm a little repulsed by all the commentary about what the commenter thinks "black women" do, don't do, or should do. *shudder*

TLF: Whoa! You have my body! And therefore know the agony of trying to find PANTS THAT FREAKING FIT. I'm currently around 123ish (at 5'7) and as for "slimmer=better," my doctor is making me drink freaking Ensure (I'm NINETEEN) because I have gotten too skinny and it is fucking with my health even though I am still within normal BMI range (a year and a half ago I was 10 pounds heavier, six months ago I was 5 pounds heavier. Oh stress).

Also, as to the commentor that said sometimes slimmer is better... Beyonce lost 25 pounds in a really quick time frame. Maybe she is totally fine now, like she probably was before. But after losing five pounds I have lost a lot of bone density which is a lot worse for my health than 5 extra pounds would be (not that they were really extra, but). I should add: I don't exercise nearly as much as I should, so probably that had something to do with it. My point is that you can't say someone looks healthy based on how slim they are--they might be just a slip on the ice away from a broken hip.

P.P.S. -- On the "pants that freaking fit" front, Gap's Curvy Cut jeans are a godsend. Not *quite* as curvy as would be perfect for me, but surprisingly close.

wow. I never thought I'd grab so much angst! Perhaps (definitely) my comments were not the most eloquent.

I actually agree with most of these comments. Both my mother and my sister have had (have) some serious body issues. My mother current has a BMI of 14 at the age of 62. So about bone density, I get it. I also know that a girl thinking she's fat rarely has anything to do with health.

I have one very minor criticism of the comments here. People need to realize that having rib bones showing does not mean that someone is dangerously skinny, or even thin for that matter. I'm a solid size 10 (and short to boot) and the heaviest I've ever been in my life. Yet still my ribs jut out significantly and there isn't an ounce of fat on my hip bones.

I just find it personally annoying that people could look at one part of my body and say I'm anorexic.

TLF: Troll invasion? I think you're jumping the gun. Not having 40 comments that consist of "yes, I agree" does not make for a "troll invasion". I just sat and read thought the entire conversation and it didn't sound to me like anything was completely unreasonable or disrespectful.

If a woman is beautiful at a size 2, 12 or 20, then she's beautiful period.

ehhhhhh... if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then there's probably some limit on that for, well, most beholders.

jeff, no need to patronize, I was referring to a specific troll who made one comment. I thought he'd post more but thankfully people seem to have ignored him, thus ridding him of ammunition. Good thing I didn't break out the popcorn just yet...

I don't understand your "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" comment. No one here is saying it isn't. Rather, we're questioning a society that trains its eyes to behold only certain bodies as beautiful, and not others.

I was watching the movie "Kiss Me Kate" last night. If Ann Miller tried to make it in the movies today, she'd be waaaay too fat. This is not news. Everyone discusses it about Monroe.

But it made me think: back in the day, movie stars were expected to do everything: act, sing, and dance. Kate Moss types can't be dancers because they don't have enough muscle. Yes, there are certainly problems with dancers being underweight (especially among ballerinas), but most do not have model-like bodies.

Someone commented earlier that there's more acceptance of "heavier" bodies in the music industry. Does anyone else think that could be because of the dancing required for music videos? I've done enough hip-hip to know that those are punishing workouts.

Maybe the problem is that we're not giving our movie stars enough to do. If they had to move like Ann Miller did, they might have a body more like her's.