You know, it's somewhat less effective to warn people about acts they have control of.

Well at least the commenters mainly set the emphasis right. Check out these lovely comments from the Daily Mail

Here's an example: Perhaps women will now take responisbility for their own drunken behaviour instead of blaming the nearest man. Lovely.

*rolls eyes* But of *course* the burden's on us. Why should teh mens have to take on any responsibility for their own actions?

Nice to see that the Scotsman's readers are apparently taking 'em to task comment-wise.

I'm not a woman, but I am a drinker, and I've definitely "forgotten" large portions of nights after drinking before. But I can't think of a time when I've been so drunk that if I were being forced upon sexually I would not be able to muster the required "no!" or "stop!" that should be enough to stop the other person from committing rape.

To use this questionable study as a reason to say women can prevent rape by not drinking is laughable.

I do give credit for the specific distinction of binge drinking though. Given what seems to be the prevalence of the issue I would question to women the sanity of drinking to excess in circumstances that could lead to something along these lines. I think too many young girls, especially, don't realize the seriousness of the situation and end up placing themselves in these dangerous situations. Granted the guys are to blame for the final act, but it seems a little forward thinking goes a long way. Much in the way abstinence sex-ed teaching does little to teach safety in the event of, alcohol and drinking should be looked at in the same way, "we know your going to do it, just be safe, and here are some ideas".

I know when I go out with friends the girls make sure to let us guy friends know to watch out for them, and I know they always look out for each other. I can only hope more girls do this. Whether the times I or a friend have had to carry one of our female friends home on behest of the other girls in our group would have lead to such an encounter I obviously can't say, but reading these articles makes me happy I've been available to help them out.

I even remember one night my friend helping one girl lock her friend in her own car because she was so drunk (she left her a bottle of water and everything). She then took her keys so she couldn't drive and took a cab home personally. I can only imagine what that girl was thinking when she woke up, but I bet she was happier to be there than many other places she may have ended up. A smart move considering a 120_lb girl is in no position to carry another drunk 120_lb girl home. The whole scene was rather funny especially watching my friend and this other girl try and get the girl laying on her side in the back seat of her own car "but this is my back seat, how can i drive home from here?" as she drinks some water and passes out...

I agree with your observation. The syntax implies that the rape "risk" is like the risk of catching a cold if you don't wash your hands.

Still, if I had to choose between warning boys not to rape and warning girls about becoming vulnerable to rape, I would choose the latter, purely on effectiveness grounds.

Hey come on now, we all know rapists are completely unstoppable, right? I mean, in the UK arent something like 4% of rapes that are *reported* the only ones that end in conviction? And of course, the only way to stop the rapists is to constantly warn women not to make themselves easy targets. There is no point in focusing any attention on the actual rapists, they may as well be unstoppable. Why dont they just get down to it and say "hard luck ladies, rape is a part of life". I dont think I can put forward any opinions on how to decrease rape. Well apart from the idea that if dogs are put down for biting people, why the hell dont we put rapists down as well? Or at the very least, stop animal testing, start criminal testing. They act like animals, why dont we start treating them like one?

And human rights my arse. Thats just plain favouritism. Bollocks to the animals, weve got to make sure that rapist has his "basic human rights".

Phlegmatic, you've got it wrong. Please don't insult animals by comparing them to rapists. The animals did nothing wrong. :)

I'm firmly convinced that rape would significantly decrease if we put rapists up to public scrutiny. If "everyone" knew who raped someone, and they were publically shunned, there'd be a great counter-incentive about rape. People don't mind cheating, but they do mind being publically ostracized. So, let's ostracize (fix, put down, I wish) all rapists. If anyone knows a sexual predator of any kind, ban them from your house, your parties, your family. Make sure people around you know what they did wrong, and don't sweep it under the rug.

Unfortunately, it's the only way people will learn that rape is wrong.

Every rapist should be killed.

Jeez, I've said that so many times it barely even seems radical anymore.

When people recommend self-defense courses, pepper spray, taking a cab instead of walking at night, or any other risk-minimising behaviour, they are not being sexist.

Yes, men should know that women can't consent when drunk, and that their actions -however benign to THEM - are incredibly damaging to women. Until that day happens, though, women should be aware of ways to not put themselves at risk. Sure, we shouldn't have to live in a society that tells us to lock our doors, because the onus shouldn't be on us to prevent robbery, but it's silly to do anything but that. It's also silly to not warn people of ways that they can stop themsevles from being victims of crime.

I'm firmly convinced that rape would significantly decrease if we put rapists up to public scrutiny.

That is very naive IMO. Do you think people just bounce back socially after their rape convictions? Or are you advocating expansion of the bathroom-wall approach, which completely lacks credibility?

Oenophile puts it best. Given the choice between hoping for sudden and sweeping change of human behavior, and taking consistent commonsense precautions, I will opt for the latter, and teach my kids to do the same.

Oenophile: "...women should be aware of ways to not put themselves at risk."

Women do NOT put themselves at risk--rapists put them at risk. Until people understand that, we're in big fucking trouble.

I disagree. The risk is being raped; the crime is rape. Your logic is a lot like saying that cancer puts us at risk of getting sick.

I lock my car doors, not because I feel victimised that someone would want to steal my Volvo, but because I know that car thieves are out there and I don't want to be the easy target. Rape prevention is about teaching women to not be targets. Same thing you do by not leaving your car unlocked.

I just do not see rape as different from, say, murder. We cannot eliminate crime - but we can teach people pretty easy ways to avoid being a target.

It seems like there are two distinct battles here: one for people's thoughts, and another for people's (women's) physical safety. Related, but calling for very different actions.

In almost any kind of harm avoidance, blame is irrelevant, as the potential source of harm is an outside force essentially beyond prediction and control, i.e. crazy drivers, identity thiefs, muggers on the street...

Attempts to correct the source of harm are policy-oriented and prospective, and often top-down. But ordinary rational people know better than to put their faith in such measures, and will take measures to avoid becoming a victim. This is not due to guilt or blame.

You can be free from moral culpability, yet fail to take the smartest course of action. People who want to increase safety and decrease rape are absolutely right to increase women's awareness of the risks of getting blitzed at a party.

We have already made rape socially unaceptable. Castrate and kill rapists, and rape will still occur, and it will STILL be the right thing to do to warn girls about that particular risk of binge drinking.

Doing things like drinking do not increase your risk of being raped--being in the company of a rapist does. I suggest anyone who doesn't get that read this post by Shakes.

Jessica:

Doing things like drinking do not increase your risk of being raped.

Drinking to excess was the original topic, so if that's what we're talking about, I would disagree - even after reading the linked post. There are many kinds of harm that you open yourself up to by binge drinking, and they run the gamut from self-inflicted to externally inflicted. Avoid binge drinking, and avoid them (at least to a numerically significant degree). Your apparent disagreement with this sacrifices truth for principle.

If we can't identify and incapacitate all rapists, including those who might rape under a certain set of circumstances (which I don't believe we ever will), I will opt to limit their opportunities and successes. The tools for doing that lie not in semantics but behavior. Until rapists start showing up to rape awareness meetings asking to be brought up to speed morally and culturally, we will have to settle for that individual repsonsibility thing.

I was under the impression that women are most likely to be raped by men they already know, not some faceless stranger down a dark alley after one drink too many, I was just having a rant before. It seems to be all about what *women* should do to prevent rape. Not what the fuck is being done to prevent rapists from raping women in the first place. Its like some people have accepted rape will always be something that happens. How do we know that? Have we tried everything to stop it? I think rape is so widespread a problem because most of the time its a crime without any punishment. Like I said, look at what they try to do to counteract it - Tell women to stop doing things that (supposedly) increase chances of rape. Now I dont deny a drunk woman is an easier target for a rapist, but is that the best anyone can come up with? Stay safe and hope for the best? Its like the person who gets the least scrutiny is the man who actually commited the rape.

It almost seems like the argument is about semantics. There are usually three different, equally important and simultaneous tacks to eliminating/minimizing a social crime:

1) A top down measure to outlaw such acts and put in place infrastructure that will act on that, and enforce those laws effectively and compassionately towards all involved.

2) A bottoms-up approach towards educating potential criminals about the implications of that crime.

3) A bottoms-up approach towards educating potential victims how to reduce their vulerability to the crime.

Why must we choose or or the other? Why is this strange either-or/black or white attitude so prevalent?

For the people who are all black-or-white, I respect your opinions, but I beg to disagree. I understand your concern that it seems to be "all about" educating the victim and not enough about educating the culpable or preventing the crime, and to that extent I agree with you. But just because (1) and (2) are not done well enough is NOT reason to not do (3). Yes, we ABSOLUTELY have to focus our attention on (1) and (2), but (3) has its place in the bigger scheme of things as well.

I agree with Biwah, who said it better than I - there are two lines of attack to prevent women from getting raped, one of which is to stop men from raping women (in the same way that we try to prevent any other crime) and the other is to help people not be victims.

As for the drunk-driving analogy - again, I agree. I'm a very good driver; my dad is an excellent (professional) driver, but we have Volvos because we worry about the other idiots on the road. Ideally, people would know how to drive well and certainly wouldn't drive drunk, but, until Utopia is here, we acknowledge that part of not dying while driving to work involves driving super-safe cars. I didn't think it patronising when the 'rents, several years ago, bought me the Volvo instead of a Jeep Wrangler (which was the other, fun, option); they were just too worried about other, bad drivers.

I don't see rape prevention as something fundamentally different from defensive driving, locking your doors, or having an alarm system. We can't count on other people to take care of us, and we certainly can't count on everyone to not commit a single crime against us.

how long have we been "educating" women on how to not get raped instead of putting a little effort on telling men not to rape, and rapes still happen (alot)?

in other words: it aint working. people are still getting raped. time to try another method (one where men are held responsible for there actions maybe?)

not to say women shouldnt protect themselves, like any normal person would. i agree with ank that there needs to be emphasis on both but im going to say there really needs to be more emphasis on men not raping. since i have never seen one article on that subject (cept for on feminist blogs)

I don't know what's left to say. I would like to address one somewhat bizarre assumption apparently held by Jessica, Phlegmatic, and sunflwrmoonbeam, i.e. that rapists aren't ostracized, punished, or looked down upon enough.

e.g.:

Its like the person who gets the least scrutiny is the man who actually commited the rape

rape would significantly decrease if we put rapists up to public scrutiny.

In what universe are convicted rapists not held up to "scrutiny"? Do prison and lifetime sex offender registration (name, address and photo on the internet, in many states) not constitute a "counter-incentive" against rape? You could say there could be improvements at the margins, like increased sentences, etc, but that debate could be had about every crime. Violent rapists will usually get out of prison at some point, and reoffending is a big concern in many cases, but it's not as if society looks the other way and you are the voices in the wilderness bringing the novel idea that rape is wrong.

In reality, it's tough to determine in many cases whether rape occurred, and meet the legal standard for proving it. As with any crime, you could lower the standard (though not constitutionally) and cast a wider net, sweeping up more innocent people in the process - but that isn't going to happen.

Point being, public attitudes toward rape are not nearly as permissive as you seem to think. Real generally, I'd rather be convicted of murder than rape. The consequences are, in social terms, lighter.

If the only room for improvement you see with respect to attitudes about rape is for people to stop talking about precautions by women, I disagree. If there is something else you feel could be done to enlighten the criminally violent and keep them on the straight and narrow, I and many others concerned with criminal justice would love to hear it.

elextrodot:

How many "No means no" posters and T-shirts are out there and chants are out there, how many "take back the night" vigils", and yet rape continues...How many ways are there to present the "Don't Rape" message to its target audience?

It's reasonable to think education has an impact, as generations run their course - but that takes a lot of time. And part of that education is (very logically) directed toward the potential victims, and relates to alcohol consumption. It's bewildering to see that the aim of equipping potential victims has somehow become a sign (to some) that society blames those victims and turns a blind eye to sexual assault.

I'm with Jessica.

A few years ago, after a spate of pick-pocketing in the subway, the police released a public service ad telling people how to avoid being the victim of a pick-pocket.

I remember thinking, why are they wasting our time with this? Why don't they put more effort into telling the pick-pockets to respect other people and stop being pick-pockets? Why is it always up to the victim to protect herself?

Honestly, though, is there any woman out there over the age of 13 who hasn't gotten some form of the "stay safe" message? Has any parent sent their daughter out into the night without warnings about avoiding dark streets, staying with a buddy, watching the bartender mix your drink and then keeping it covered, walking with your keys sticking out between your fingers, never going anywhere with a guy, blah, blah, blah, selfprotectioncakes. I mean, it's a good message, just in general, but no woman is going to read that study and say, "Oh, my God, I totally didn't know that! What a shock! This changes my entire approach to going out!"

What will it to? Contribute to the "blame the victim" mentality, probably. I'm sure we all remember the furor after Jennifer Moore was murdered - ten thousand questions about what she was doing out, why she was drinking, why she was walking around, what she was wearing, but remarkably few about why former-violent-offender Draymond Coleman was free to rape and murder her. Funny, isn't it.

"Doing things like drinking do not increase your risk of being raped--being in the company of a rapist does."

...and when we are less able to defend ourselves while in the company of rapists (when we are small children, frail elders, comatose, passed-out drunk, whatever) our risk is higher still.

"Why must we choose or or the other? Why is this strange either-or/black or white attitude so prevalent?"

Great point.

"How many "No means no" posters and T-shirts are out there and chants are out there, how many "take back the night" vigils", and yet rape continues..."

you really think "no means no" actually means anything to a would be rapist? (of the non sociopath kind). how about teaching men that women are people to, just like them, and maybe shouldnt be looked at like peices of meat or conquests. theres alot lacking in just simply saying no means no.

"Stop getting drunk and raping women, asshole"

Best. Imaginary Headline. Ever.

You know, I shouldn't have to say this, but women are not cars. I don't accept analogies that compare my body to an object. The fact is that there is not a culture of victim-blaming when it comes to car theft; cars that have been stolen do not deal with years and years of traumatic after-effects, and that is because cars are not sentient human beings. This is not an acceptable analogy.

Further, the assumption behind this kind of headline is that women are not already aware of rape, that we do not already take significant precautions. We do. We know. Why is the assumption always that hey, wow, I never realized that being drunk could affect my judgment/make me more dependent on others/render me weaker! Thank goodness the media alerted me! Now I can avoid rape!

It's absurd. I spent a lot of my adolescence binge-drinking. I wasn't raped. You know why? Nobody raped me. Rapists are the risk factor for rape. And talking of years and years of "fruitless" education, for how many hundreds of years have women been told to modify their behavior so as to avoid rape? Gee, it doesn't seem to work. Maybe we should focus on the men, just for a change of pace.

Jessica comments:

Doing things like drinking do not increase your risk of being raped--being in the company of a rapist does.

Ok, how about this, then: don't do your binge drinking in the company of rapists. Or better yet: don't be in the company of rapists, whether (binge) drinking or not!

I remember a similar argument once about adult men who molest underage women. The criminals are the adult men, definitely, but what should one say to the girls? Someone pointed out that there's no point telling the men it's wrong--they know it already. They're not molesting out of ignorance, so preaching to all men that molesting underage girls is bad won't do any good. The girls, OTOH--advice to be careful could save them a world of hurt!

This raises feminist hackles, though. I remember a post on DKos about women being fearful of getting drunk while bar-hopping. I pointed out that I believe it is totally my duty to explain to my daughter that such behavior is unwise; even that it is more unwise for her than it is for her brother. Many commenters took me to task for such "mind-bending" advice, since it would lead my daughter to think herself as more constrained than boys/men around her.

Well, I sure hope so! I want her to demand equality in education, career, civil rights, etc. And while I hope neither of my kids gets shit-faced while bar hopping with strangers, most certainly I will point out to my daughter that it is more dangerous for her.

Of course, pro forma I should say it to boys and girls, but we all know that it is far more relevant to women than to men!

And yes, I know I've been inconsistent in using boys/men and girls/women.

"how many hundreds of years have women been told to modify their behavior so as to avoid rape?"

For at least some of those years, weren't women and girls told to modify their behavior so as to get raped within forced arranged marriage instead of raped outside marriage?

As a junior at a middle sized university who works the night shift at the front desk of the dorms, I will tell you that boys KNOW that raping girls is wrong. BUT, a lot of them also think that girls get drunk because they want to have sex, that a girl who's unintelligibly drunk is still able to consent and that if a girl goes out wearing a short skirt and a top she's falling out of and proceeds to get drunk enough to fall out of her top, that she should really expect that guys are going to try and have sex with her. They don't think this is rape.

What we need to do is educate our boys about sex; that it's better when you have a partner who's able to consent and participate in the act, that respecting women will lead to a better sexual experience than a one night stand with a girl too drunk to remember her own name. And we need to let them know that rape is sex with anyone who is unable to consent, whether due to age or intoxication.

That said, I still think girls should be careful when they drink not because drunk girls are "responsible" for being raped, but because of the possibility of being slipped something. A friend of mine had her drink drugged by a bartender who'd been paid off by a guy who hounded her to have 'just one drink'. Go out with friends, trust your instincts, have a system so that everyone knows when someone needs to leave. That's what I'd recommend to the girls I see at my job. That doesn't mean you're responsible for the actions of a potential rapist, it means you recognize that the threat's there and you have a system to handle it.

What we need to do is educate our boys about sex

I'll buy that. About sex and about life. There is so much they need to know beside "don't rape", that would be far more effective in making then into people who wouldn't and couldn't do that kind of thing.

I think that by focusing on the university environment Ginny is able to nail a big part of the issue. IMO we are at the tail end of the "anything goes in college" era, and it is shaking out in a number of disturbing ways. Obviously it's not just college, but that's the classic merging point of so much booze, aggression, and lack of immediate consequences.

Another thing I might not have appreciated is how much girls have it drummed into their heads that they might get raped. I can see how you would want to know that someone is working at least as hard on boys.

I don't think it's time to let up on cautioning young women, but intelligently, and with intelligent efforts to heading off the problem at the source with young men. However, there will always be that "drunk driver" random factor - how do you teach your kids (of either gender) just how fast and out of the blue bad shit can happen, unless you get specific (and strategic) about avoiding danger without getting specific about the dangers themselves?

unless you get specific (and strategic) about avoiding danger without getting specific about the dangers themselves?

typo - should be "How do you get specific (and strategic)..."

"how long have we been "educating" women on how to not get raped instead of putting a little effort on telling men not to rape, and rapes still happen (alot)?

in other words: it aint working. people are still getting raped. time to try another method (one where men are held responsible for there actions maybe?)

not to say women shouldnt protect themselves, like any normal person would. i agree with ank that there needs to be emphasis on both but im going to say there really needs to be more emphasis on men not raping. since i have never seen one article on that subject (cept for on feminist blogs)" --elektrodot

precisely, elektrodot. it's only on feminist blogs. what would be refreshing is if it were in men's magazines like maxim, fhm and stuff.

"In what universe are convicted rapists not held up to "scrutiny"? How many "No means no" posters and T-shirts are out there and chants are out there, how many "take back the night" vigils", and yet rape continues...How many ways are there to present the "Don't Rape" message to its target audience?" --biwah

no means no posters and t-shirts, take back the night vigils are feminist venues. you don't see no means no posters or t-shirts in maxim, stuff or fhm.

"Has any parent sent their daughter out into the night without warnings about avoiding dark streets, staying with a buddy, watching the bartender mix your drink and then keeping it covered, walking with your keys sticking out between your fingers, never going anywhere with a guy, blah, blah, blah, selfprotectioncakes." --ACG

"Why is the assumption always that hey, wow, I never realized that being drunk could affect my judgment/make me more dependent on others/render me weaker! Thank goodness the media alerted me! Now I can avoid rape! It's absurd. I spent a lot of my adolescence binge-drinking. I wasn't raped. You know why? Nobody raped me. Rapists are the risk factor for rape. And talking of years and years of "fruitless" education, for how many hundreds of years have women been told to modify their behavior so as to avoid rape? Gee, it doesn't seem to work. Maybe we should focus on the men, just for a change of pace."

good points.

one thing women should be warned about is the date rape drugs. as in, don't ever let a guy get you a drink. don't let your drink out of sight when a guy can put the drug in it. i'm not sure how women let that happen.

donna, I'll tell you how women 'let' themselves get drugged: they don't. It just happens. Like I said above, my friend had a drug put into her drink by a bartender. She ordered the drink herself, but the guy who was buying her the drink had paid off the bartender before. She was able to tell what was happening as soon as she took one sip and left with her friend. My boyfriend was at a party one time and saw a girl with a can of beer engaged in a conversation with her friend, as she was talking a guy walking by dropped a pill through the opening in the can. The drink never left her hand, and she probably opened the can herself. My bf warned her before she drank any of it. Drugging is something that can happen to smart women, attentive women, women who aren't even drinking alcohol. Unless you open the can/bottle and mix the drink yourself and literally never take your eyes off your drink for one second, not to make eye contact to talk with someone, not to check your watch, check your cell phone, watch a television set, it can happen. I'm not trying to scare anyone, I just don't like the implications with saying "women let that happen".

Biggest message, take care of yourself, take care of your friends. Pay attention and trust your instincts. If something feels wrong, it probably is. I'm sorry if I seem touchy, but working and living on a college campus makes these issues more "real" for me.

"don't ever let a guy get you a drink." Just a question, I feel like a royal jackass if I don't offer to get someone a drink, is there any way to appropriately offer someone a drink?

"My boyfriend was at a party one time and saw a girl with a can of beer engaged in a conversation with her friend, as she was talking a guy walking by dropped a pill through the opening in the can. The drink never left her hand."

This is what gets me. The drink is in your hand and a random guy can put a pill in it? Or maybe I'm more vigilant than most in these situations.

Which clearly means the onus is on women to protect themselves. Sigh.

Who should the onus to protect her be on then? The rapist? That doesn't seem like a particularly effective way assure a woman's safety.

They should put

Stop raping drunk women

Stop getting drunk and raping women, asshole

in every issue of Maxim, Stuff and FHM. But that would be antithetical to the goal of these magazines.

I wonder what the men who think it's not rape to have sex with a woman who's falling-down drunk would call it if a gay man had sex with them while they were passed out drunk? Would they just shrug and say, "well, I chose to get that drunk, so I guess I had it coming"?
Somehow I doubt it.

I wonder what it's like to exist in a world where you can temporarily lower your guard and/or allow yourself to be physically vulnerable, and it's not automatically considered an open invitation to have a penis stuck in you.

Must be nice...

Elektrodot said (Feb 19, 4.54 PM):

"how long have we been "educating" women on how to not get raped instead of putting a little effort on telling men not to rape, and rapes still happen (alot)?

in other words: it aint working. people are still getting raped. time to try another method (one where men are held responsible for there actions maybe?)"

Well - I am not sure that it isn't working. See link below.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/18/thank-feminism/

Just a question, I feel like a royal jackass if I don't offer to get someone a drink, is there any way to appropriately offer someone a drink?

If you know the girl well, just offer (i.e. you've been out on a few dates). Otherwise, at a bar, walk with her to the bar and ask her what she would like. She can then watch the bartender mix it. It might require asking twice - once to get her to go to the bar with you, and again whlie she's there - but you should be able to pull it off.

Re the comments saying there's "enough" of a social stigma against rape, I call bullshit.

Thank the Lord, I've never been raped. But I have seen the fallout when it happens. I have seen best friends turn against victims because *they* believe the fucktard cocksucking assface who did it. If a woman's own best friend believes the guy over her, you can imagine about how much stigma there is against the actual rapist.

Pointing to conviction statistics is a copout. It's a demonstrable truth that rapes are underreported, underprosecuted, and underconvicted. For every rape conviction, I can't even imagine the high number of rapes that go unpunished. The vast majority of rapists get off scot-free, and many of them even enjoy watching the public scorning of their victim, should she dare to mention it even to a few friends.

My understanding is that it's child molesters, not rapists, who suffer worse among convicted criminals. I haven't seen anything that suggests to me rapists are treated worse than murderers -- indeed, rape is used within the prison system to assert dominance. Rapists are feared and powerful -- the commission of rape is not stigmatized, and even if it were, it could not possibly be stigmatized enough. Period.

If you google rape prevention, you will find that more and more prevention efforts ARE geared to boys and men. Because 'sexy' drunk women are not the only people being raped- vulnerable people of all ages and genders are raped. I recently read a stat that 85-95% of physically or developmentally disabled people have been sexually assaulted. So... stop being vulnerable, people? Not an effective message.

If you have never heard of Dave Lisak, google him. He is the SHIT! He made a video called "The Undetected Rapist" which is an interview of a frat boy he met during a study of rape and rapists- I believe the stat was 87% of rapists did not believe that what they did was rape, and 44% believed that they would do it again. He also has been working with the Air Force to change their culture to reduce/stop sexual assault- I believe he will replicate that model in other branches of the military. BECAUSE IT IS EFFECTIVE TO AIM RAPE PREVENTION MESSAGES AT MEN. ESPECIALLY MEN WHO ARE NOT RAPISTS.

Some very interesting research about the typical rapist from Dave Lisak which reinforces my view of rape as a hate crime:

However, twenty years of research on so-called “undetected� rapists – men who commit rapes but who are either not reported or not prosecuted for their crimes – has clearly demonstrated that the old stereotypes about rapists are false. These undetected rapists represent the vast majority of rapists, and account for the vast majority of rapes. However, their crimes are characterized by extensive planning and premeditation, the frequent use of alcohol and other drugs to render their victims vulnerable, and the use of sufficient force and threats to terrify their victims into submission.

“Undetected� rapists are much more likely to hold stereotyped beliefs about the “proper� roles for women and men in society, and to rigidly adhere to those beliefs. For example, because they tell themselves that “women say no to sex even when they really want it,� they can disregard their victims’ obvious signs of terror and resistance.

Undetected rapists have repeatedly been found to harbor chronic, underlying feelings of anger and hostility toward women. They typically feel easily slighted by women, and carry grudges against them. This underlying hostility is easily evoked and colors their distorted perceptions of women as “teasers� who either “secretly� want to be coerced into sex, or else “deserve� it. These men have also consistently been shown to have strong needs to dominate and to be in control of women, and to be particularly fearful of being controlled by women.

A consistent finding in the recent research on “undetected� sexually violent men is that most of this violence emerges either directly or indirectly from what have been termed “sexually violent subcultures.� Examples of such subcultures include fraternities and delinquent gangs. These subcultures are powerful forces that both reflect the rapist’s views about women and sexual conquest, and also help to shape them.

While the traditional view about incarcerated rapists was that they harbored deep-seated anger towards their mothers, the evidence indicates that among undetected rapists anger and disappointment about their fathers is far more salient. For some of these men, damaged relationships with their fathers appears to feed their need to view themselves as hypermasculine, and to drive their rigidity and stereotyped beliefs and behaviors. Another developmental factor that has been associated with sexual aggression is child abuse. The rate of child abuse among undetected rapists, particularly childhood physical abuse, is much greater than it is among nonviolent men.

This research reinforces the fact rapists are a specific kind of criminal and that drunk women are not the problem.

It's more useful to tell women to stay away from hypermasculine men, fraternities, men who seem to hate women and men with daddy issues. (Check out the Lisak link.)

Thank you, Law Fairy and kpsisu for being rational about this issue. I find it interesting and sad that a lot of people here talk about how far rapists will go to drug women, to corner them, to trick them into situations where they can rape them -- and THEN, after describing all the trouble these people go through to rape, talk about how women should do MORE to protect themselves. Like what, bozos? Learn mind-reading? You've just described yourselves how rapists make it impossible for women to avoid rape, yet you still blame women for it. You still think we should stop drinking, stop going out, stop even looking at strangers, stop being alone at any time, even for .25 seconds, hell, even stop ordering soft drinks when we go out because somebody might spike them. And many of you have no problem with this. You have no problem with making women prisoners in this world, with giving us none of the freedom men have because you've decided rape is inevitable and that all that can prevent it is for women to avoid being in public or having any fun whatsoever. Has anybody ever seen how men act in public? They get drunk, too, but don't expect to be raped. They approach women ALL THE BLOODY TIME, going after them aggressively, but nobody accuses them of "asking" to be raped. Why is it so okay with people like biwah and oenophile that men can do whatever the hell they want while women have to act like agoraphobic nuns in order to prevent getting raped? Why are WE denied our freedom, our pursuit of happiness just because we had the gall to be born female?

And finally, somebody already pointed this out but nobody really seems to have seized on it as much as I'd hoped -- MOST RAPES AREN'T COMMITTED BY STRANGERS. They're committed by friends, intimate partners, and relatives. So apparently, according to the rape apologist brigade here, women also should not drink or have fun around their boyfriends or friends because they might get raped. So when, then, are we allowed to have fun? What are we allowed to do? When won't biwah and oenophile blame a woman for being raped? When she's an elderly nun who is doing her utmost to have no fun whatsoever? (And she'd better damn well be in the convent when it happens, because remember, kids, going outside puts you at risk of being raped, too!) And oh, yeah, girls, if you were thinking of having a ladies' night at a friend's house, you'd better cancel those plans, because some guys might figure out that there's a house full of drunk women down the street and come over and rape you.

Does anybody get it yet? Does anybody realize that women have been doing our utmost to prevent rape for centuries, and every time we stupidly give up one part of our freedom, society comes up with something else that we have to do to prevent it? It's just going to keep going on and on until complete improisonment of women IS perfectly realistic, and you can be damn sure the rape won't end then, either. Think of countries like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia where women DON'T go out and DON'T drink and don't do any of the things that supposedly "cause" rape. Men rape women even MORE often in those countries. So biwah and oenophile, you're spewing bullshit if you think controlling women's behavior will prevent rape. It won't. It will create a class of women with no power, no support groups to protect them because they've become so isolated, and a society and legal system that feels perfectly entitled to let rapists off the hook and blame women whenever somebody rapes us.

"It's more useful to tell women to stay away from hypermasculine men, fraternities, men who seem to hate women and men with daddy issues."

Not to mention men who don't seem to get that other people have feelings too and/or have a hard time with social "gray areas" instead of black-and-white rules. I'm reminded a bit of this:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/e2e1ede71d3a0189?hl=en&

and of this:

http://feministing.com/archives/006305.html#comment-61062

So I'd be wary of the "math rules, neutrotypicals drool" Geek Pride crowd as well as the "football rules, school drools" Greek Pride crowds...

thank you, ponies & rainbows

Can I have an Amen for ponies & rainbows!

Mina, hypermasculine men, frat boys, men who hate women, men with daddy issues, men who don't understand women at all and "nice guys" fit into the category of assholes. Rape has decreased since 1970 because of feminism

"Women’s rapidly rising status and economic independence in the larger society fostered new attitudes and laws that rejected violence against women."

and because women are keeping their distance from assholes not because we're going out less. Supersleuth DD figured this out today.

Mina, the troll in your link was definitely a "nice guy".

You sure picked a good example of a "nice guy", Mina!

"I am definitely not a troll, I'm just a boy living in an unfair, deeply emasculating situation which makes me feel raped, and want to discuss this rationally.

I only seek to point out a highly unfair situation.

Boys will have casual sex with almost any girl, even if she is unpopular or not that pretty even. Yet girls only will have casual sex with a top portion of "chosen" "special" boys.

This makes the rest of us boys feel unworthy, unloved, disliked, ignored by girls .. confused because we don't understand why we are denied this pleasure and approval. The only difference between us and the popular guys, is we don't use violence and bullying to belittle other boys, therefore we are viewed as weak to the girls in comparison.

Girls should choose to have sex with whoever they wish.

But clearly, they don't make these choices fairly or evenly - and this creates a severely unequal situation of halves and have nots among males, which can often only be rectified via violence against the chosen males, the girls, parents, society..."

Has Oenophile or Biwah ever blamed women for getting raped?

There's a big difference between saying "Behavior X increases the risk of rape" and saying "women who commit behavior X bring it upon themselves." There's an almost universal tendency to confuse moral pronouncements with empirical ones. Behavior that causes risk is conflated with behavior that is immoral, while behavior that brings rewards is conflated with moral behavior.

Incidentally, the same principle applies to obesity threads. There are two separate issues - one about the health effects of obesity, and one about beauty standards - that tend to get conflated, with absurd results on both sides. Likewise, whether campaigns giving women rape-reduction tips work is entirely independent of whether there's a victim-blaming culture.

ponies,

When won't biwah and oenophile blame a woman for being raped?

I think your rage has clouded your reading comprehension.

It will create a class of women with no power, no support groups to protect them because they've become so isolated, and a society and legal system that feels perfectly entitled to let rapists off the hook and blame women whenever somebody rapes us.

Apparently, in addition to being inadequately paranoid about society doing an about-face and condoning rape sometime next month, I also have the misguided, patriarchical opinion that the risk of becoming a victim can actually be reduced by (a) identifying dangerous circumstances and (b) avoiding them.

I agree that young men should be made to think about what behavior = rape, and made to persuaded not to do it. This is education and communication, it is far from a novel idea but could certainly be stepped up. While all for it, I am less than optimistic about the efficacy of undoing deep-rooted problem by writing articles in FHM or whatever other educational tactics people are suggesting. Society already has many balls in the air where behavior modification is concerned, and there are precious few success stories.

Therefore, IMO, undertaking efforts to improve male behavior does not replace the need, to any significant degree, to take responsibility for your own safety as much as possible. If that means don't get wasted, that is what it means. My aim is that if I ever have sons, they will learn to be respectful, keep their urges in check, and that intoxication will warp their thinking. Similarly, my daughters will learn not to take their safety for granted and know that when you are intoxicated, your security is positively up in the air. These lessons are not mutually exclusive, but the emphases are different. They are based on what the world is and not what my personal idea of what it ought to be. The overall lesson is don't trust, and more specifically don't trust alcohol. My objective is not to put them in a box, but to make them smart. If I can instill that, I won't need to instill my ideas of how things ought to be.

As far as educating other people's kids about how not to be a sociopath, I already have a day job. That too, sadly, is reality.

As a p.s., I would really like to hear what extra stigma should be attached to rape that is not already - since that seems to be the jist of many comments. If "rapist" is not an abhorrent label in American society, I am not sure what society I live in.

If "rapist" is not an abhorrent label in American society, I am not sure what society I live in.

I don't think the problem is that the label of "rapist" is insufficiently abhorrent--it's that many people who are rapists will vehemently deny they are, and many people will defend them, because they have an incomplete or erroneous notion of what actually qualifies (legally) as rape.

So it's not that we're failing to treat the label as appropriately abhorrent--it's that we're failing to apply it to many people who have earned it.

"I agree that young men should be made to think about what behavior = rape, and made to persuaded not to do it. This is education and communication, it is far from a novel idea but could certainly be stepped up."

That's what most of us are saying. Women have been told for millenia how to avoid rape and do whatever they can to avoid rape. Why does rape still happen? We should now step up and put the emphasis on reforming traditional masculinity.

"While all for it, I am less than optimistic about the efficacy of undoing deep-rooted problem by writing articles in FHM or whatever other educational tactics people are suggesting. Society already has many balls in the air where behavior modification is concerned, and there are precious few success stories."

What is being done? If there are few success stories is it because there is not enough being done and not enough of an emphasis to reform traditional masculinity? By the way, this is critical not just for the prevention of rape but many of the world's current problems. Michael Kimmel's description of traditional masculinity is pretty accurate and there are four main components:

1. Repudiation of the feminine

2. Power, success, wealth and status

3. Never showing emotions

4. Manly daring, risk-taking and aggression

Traditional masculinity (especially #2 and #4) is behind the War on Terror, the Iraq War, imperialism, neo-liberal globalization, looting foreign countries for their natural resources and cheap labor, the Bush administration, anti-environmental policy in favor of corporations that loot foreign countries, workers and the environment, global warming, and on and on and on. Studying traditional masculinity and feminism goes a long way to dismantle not only rape culture but many of the world's problems.

law fairy,

Nobody has said there is "enough" of a stigma, you are making that up in order to score points. Also, I would have to call BS on your assertion that in our society,

Rapists are feared and powerful.

Wtf do you get that? Rapists are generally viewed, accurately or not, as cowardly sociopaths who can't function in normal society, and are indeed targeted for special penalties both in mainstream society and on the fringes (e.g. prison). You act like our society is completely upside down on this issue. I say we have it mostly right, but we have a detection and enforcement problem - as you correctly point out. A lot of that is inherent to the nature of the crime. The crime deserves to be punished, but not every accuser is believed. The solution to that is for people to understand that a victim does not always exhibit certain preconceived evidence of being a victim, it is not for accusers to be unquestioningly believed in every instance.

Also, I have agreed all along, better understanding of what rape is, similar to understanding what domestic violence is, is necessary to correct certain kinds of prejudice, and will improve the situation. That is happening and should continue.

Vervain, that makes sense. As I've said (not trying to be right about everything, just being clear) we have a detection & enforcement problem. I believe you are saying essentially the same thing, where slapping the "rapist" label is part of that process.

donna:

I don't diagree with most of what you've said here, but you set your sights on a big task:

We should now step up and put the emphasis on reforming traditional masculinity.

Again, how do you do this? I would submit that traditional masculinity is undergoing profound changes as we speak, but that doesn't mean there are no exceptions or growing pains, and the "end" result is far from certain (and indeed could be cataclysmic).

Overall, the more sweeping your goals, the harder to translate into reality, IMO. I don't really agree with your argument that masculinity is the root of all earthly evil, but your points are well taken. At the very least, I'd say masculinity is responsible has a positive and creative aspect that feminists don't often come together to praise, but that's okay.

For example, Lisak's profile of the average rapist contains each of the traditional masculine characteristics.

1. 1. Repudiation of the feminine

Undetected rapists are much more likely to hold stereotyped beliefs about the “proper� roles for women and men in society, and to rigidly adhere to those beliefs. These men have also consistently been shown to
have strong needs to dominate and to be in control of women, and to be particularly fearful of being controlled by women. Consistent with their stereotyped and rigid views about the “proper� roles of men and women in society, undetected rapists tend to adopt highly “gendered� identities; that is, they see themselves as hyper-masculine, they strive to always behave in rigidly and stereotypically masculine ways, they are always on the alert for any perceived slight to
their masculine identities, and they are made very anxious by any situation that might cast doubt on their perceived masculinity.

2. Power, success, wealth and status

Their sexual activity tends to be an important component of their identities. Thus, rather than being a product of greater sex drive, their increased sexual activity appears to be driven by their view that if they are not very active then they are neither “successful� nor adequate as men. Sexually aggressive behavior is typically part of a belief system that views women as sexual objects to be conquered, coerced and used for self-gratification.

3. Never showing emotions

The average rapist has been shown to be more emotionally constricted than nonaggressive men. They are less able to label their
own emotional experience, and much less emotionally expressive. As a consequence, they are also less capable of resonating with the emotional experience of other people,
and are therefore less empathic than nonaggressive men.

4. Manly daring, risk-taking and aggression

Thus, while in general aggression and violence
are perceived to be more masculine than feminine traits, the rapist tends to view aggression and violence as crucial markers of his adequacy as a male. They prove to him that he is a “real man.� When such deeply held beliefs are combined with the effects of sexually violent subcultures, as described above, the mixture often becomes dangerous.
The “power� motivation that underlies the constant striving for sexual conquests mixes with the rapist’s underlying hostility toward women and his hypermasculine identity.
When a woman resists his coercive sexual pressure, he is very likely to perceive this as a challenge and affront to his masculinity and to react with anger and aggression, behaviors
which restore his sense of adequacy.

Dismantling traditional masculinity is not as scary as it sounds because it's already happening.

1. Repudiation of the feminine

This is being replaced by equality and respect for both men and women.

2. Power, success, wealth and status

Men and women are becoming equal with regards to power, wealth and status.

3. Never showing emotions

Men are slowly being encouraged to show their emotions.

4. Manly daring, risk-taking and aggression

Men and women are becoming equally assertive.

Rapists are feared and powerful.

Wtf do you get that? Rapists are generally viewed, accurately or not, as cowardly sociopaths who can't function in normal society, and are indeed targeted for special penalties both in mainstream society and on the fringes (e.g. prison). You act like our society is completely upside down on this issue.

This is where you show your (unintentional) privilege. Women fear rapists. You may not, but we do. Sorry.

Rapists are feared and powerful.

Wtf do you get that? Rapists are generally viewed, accurately or not, as cowardly sociopaths who can't function in normal society, and are indeed targeted for special penalties both in mainstream society and on the fringes (e.g. prison). You act like our society is completely upside down on this issue.

This is where you show your (unintentional) privilege. Women fear rapists. You may not, but we do. Sorry.

Rapists are feared and powerful.

Wtf do you get that? Rapists are generally viewed, accurately or not, as cowardly sociopaths who can't function in normal society, and are indeed targeted for special penalties both in mainstream society and on the fringes (e.g. prison). You act like our society is completely upside down on this issue.

This is where you show your (unintentional) privilege. Women fear rapists. You may not, but we do. Sorry.