You know, it's somewhat less effective to warn people about acts they have control of.

Well at least the commenters mainly set the emphasis right. Check out these lovely comments from the Daily Mail

Here's an example: Perhaps women will now take responisbility for their own drunken behaviour instead of blaming the nearest man. Lovely.

*rolls eyes* But of *course* the burden's on us. Why should teh mens have to take on any responsibility for their own actions?

Nice to see that the Scotsman's readers are apparently taking 'em to task comment-wise.

I'm not a woman, but I am a drinker, and I've definitely "forgotten" large portions of nights after drinking before. But I can't think of a time when I've been so drunk that if I were being forced upon sexually I would not be able to muster the required "no!" or "stop!" that should be enough to stop the other person from committing rape.

To use this questionable study as a reason to say women can prevent rape by not drinking is laughable.

I do give credit for the specific distinction of binge drinking though. Given what seems to be the prevalence of the issue I would question to women the sanity of drinking to excess in circumstances that could lead to something along these lines. I think too many young girls, especially, don't realize the seriousness of the situation and end up placing themselves in these dangerous situations. Granted the guys are to blame for the final act, but it seems a little forward thinking goes a long way. Much in the way abstinence sex-ed teaching does little to teach safety in the event of, alcohol and drinking should be looked at in the same way, "we know your going to do it, just be safe, and here are some ideas".

I know when I go out with friends the girls make sure to let us guy friends know to watch out for them, and I know they always look out for each other. I can only hope more girls do this. Whether the times I or a friend have had to carry one of our female friends home on behest of the other girls in our group would have lead to such an encounter I obviously can't say, but reading these articles makes me happy I've been available to help them out.

I even remember one night my friend helping one girl lock her friend in her own car because she was so drunk (she left her a bottle of water and everything). She then took her keys so she couldn't drive and took a cab home personally. I can only imagine what that girl was thinking when she woke up, but I bet she was happier to be there than many other places she may have ended up. A smart move considering a 120_lb girl is in no position to carry another drunk 120_lb girl home. The whole scene was rather funny especially watching my friend and this other girl try and get the girl laying on her side in the back seat of her own car "but this is my back seat, how can i drive home from here?" as she drinks some water and passes out...

I agree with your observation. The syntax implies that the rape "risk" is like the risk of catching a cold if you don't wash your hands.

Still, if I had to choose between warning boys not to rape and warning girls about becoming vulnerable to rape, I would choose the latter, purely on effectiveness grounds.

Hey come on now, we all know rapists are completely unstoppable, right? I mean, in the UK arent something like 4% of rapes that are *reported* the only ones that end in conviction? And of course, the only way to stop the rapists is to constantly warn women not to make themselves easy targets. There is no point in focusing any attention on the actual rapists, they may as well be unstoppable. Why dont they just get down to it and say "hard luck ladies, rape is a part of life". I dont think I can put forward any opinions on how to decrease rape. Well apart from the idea that if dogs are put down for biting people, why the hell dont we put rapists down as well? Or at the very least, stop animal testing, start criminal testing. They act like animals, why dont we start treating them like one?

And human rights my arse. Thats just plain favouritism. Bollocks to the animals, weve got to make sure that rapist has his "basic human rights".

Phlegmatic, you've got it wrong. Please don't insult animals by comparing them to rapists. The animals did nothing wrong. :)

I'm firmly convinced that rape would significantly decrease if we put rapists up to public scrutiny. If "everyone" knew who raped someone, and they were publically shunned, there'd be a great counter-incentive about rape. People don't mind cheating, but they do mind being publically ostracized. So, let's ostracize (fix, put down, I wish) all rapists. If anyone knows a sexual predator of any kind, ban them from your house, your parties, your family. Make sure people around you know what they did wrong, and don't sweep it under the rug.

Unfortunately, it's the only way people will learn that rape is wrong.

Every rapist should be killed.

Jeez, I've said that so many times it barely even seems radical anymore.

When people recommend self-defense courses, pepper spray, taking a cab instead of walking at night, or any other risk-minimising behaviour, they are not being sexist.

Yes, men should know that women can't consent when drunk, and that their actions -however benign to THEM - are incredibly damaging to women. Until that day happens, though, women should be aware of ways to not put themselves at risk. Sure, we shouldn't have to live in a society that tells us to lock our doors, because the onus shouldn't be on us to prevent robbery, but it's silly to do anything but that. It's also silly to not warn people of ways that they can stop themsevles from being victims of crime.

I'm firmly convinced that rape would significantly decrease if we put rapists up to public scrutiny.

That is very naive IMO. Do you think people just bounce back socially after their rape convictions? Or are you advocating expansion of the bathroom-wall approach, which completely lacks credibility?

Oenophile puts it best. Given the choice between hoping for sudden and sweeping change of human behavior, and taking consistent commonsense precautions, I will opt for the latter, and teach my kids to do the same.

Oenophile: "...women should be aware of ways to not put themselves at risk."

Women do NOT put themselves at risk--rapists put them at risk. Until people understand that, we're in big fucking trouble.

I disagree. The risk is being raped; the crime is rape. Your logic is a lot like saying that cancer puts us at risk of getting sick.

I lock my car doors, not because I feel victimised that someone would want to steal my Volvo, but because I know that car thieves are out there and I don't want to be the easy target. Rape prevention is about teaching women to not be targets. Same thing you do by not leaving your car unlocked.

I just do not see rape as different from, say, murder. We cannot eliminate crime - but we can teach people pretty easy ways to avoid being a target.

It seems like there are two distinct battles here: one for people's thoughts, and another for people's (women's) physical safety. Related, but calling for very different actions.

In almost any kind of harm avoidance, blame is irrelevant, as the potential source of harm is an outside force essentially beyond prediction and control, i.e. crazy drivers, identity thiefs, muggers on the street...

Attempts to correct the source of harm are policy-oriented and prospective, and often top-down. But ordinary rational people know better than to put their faith in such measures, and will take measures to avoid becoming a victim. This is not due to guilt or blame.

You can be free from moral culpability, yet fail to take the smartest course of action. People who want to increase safety and decrease rape are absolutely right to increase women's awareness of the risks of getting blitzed at a party.

We have already made rape socially unaceptable. Castrate and kill rapists, and rape will still occur, and it will STILL be the right thing to do to warn girls about that particular risk of binge drinking.

Doing things like drinking do not increase your risk of being raped--being in the company of a rapist does. I suggest anyone who doesn't get that read this post by Shakes.

Jessica:

Doing things like drinking do not increase your risk of being raped.

Drinking to excess was the original topic, so if that's what we're talking about, I would disagree - even after reading the linked post. There are many kinds of harm that you open yourself up to by binge drinking, and they run the gamut from self-inflicted to externally inflicted. Avoid binge drinking, and avoid them (at least to a numerically significant degree). Your apparent disagreement with this sacrifices truth for principle.

If we can't identify and incapacitate all rapists, including those who might rape under a certain set of circumstances (which I don't believe we ever will), I will opt to limit their opportunities and successes. The tools for doing that lie not in semantics but behavior. Until rapists start showing up to rape awareness meetings asking to be brought up to speed morally and culturally, we will have to settle for that individual repsonsibility thing.

I was under the impression that women are most likely to be raped by men they already know, not some faceless stranger down a dark alley after one drink too many, I was just having a rant before. It seems to be all about what *women* should do to prevent rape. Not what the fuck is being done to prevent rapists from raping women in the first place. Its like some people have accepted rape will always be something that happens. How do we know that? Have we tried everything to stop it? I think rape is so widespread a problem because most of the time its a crime without any punishment. Like I said, look at what they try to do to counteract it - Tell women to stop doing things that (supposedly) increase chances of rape. Now I dont deny a drunk woman is an easier target for a rapist, but is that the best anyone can come up with? Stay safe and hope for the best? Its like the person who gets the least scrutiny is the man who actually commited the rape.

It almost seems like the argument is about semantics. There are usually three different, equally important and simultaneous tacks to eliminating/minimizing a social crime:

1) A top down measure to outlaw such acts and put in place infrastructure that will act on that, and enforce those laws effectively and compassionately towards all involved.

2) A bottoms-up approach towards educating potential criminals about the implications of that crime.

3) A bottoms-up approach towards educating potential victims how to reduce their vulerability to the crime.

Why must we choose or or the other? Why is this strange either-or/black or white attitude so prevalent?

For the people who are all black-or-white, I respect your opinions, but I beg to disagree. I understand your concern that it seems to be "all about" educating the victim and not enough about educating the culpable or preventing the crime, and to that extent I agree with you. But just because (1) and (2) are not done well enough is NOT reason to not do (3). Yes, we ABSOLUTELY have to focus our attention on (1) and (2), but (3) has its place in the bigger scheme of things as well.

I agree with Biwah, who said it better than I - there are two lines of attack to prevent women from getting raped, one of which is to stop men from raping women (in the same way that we try to prevent any other crime) and the other is to help people not be victims.

As for the drunk-driving analogy - again, I agree. I'm a very good driver; my dad is an excellent (professional) driver, but we have Volvos because we worry about the other idiots on the road. Ideally, people would know how to drive well and certainly wouldn't drive drunk, but, until Utopia is here, we acknowledge that part of not dying while driving to work involves driving super-safe cars. I didn't think it patronising when the 'rents, several years ago, bought me the Volvo instead of a Jeep Wrangler (which was the other, fun, option); they were just too worried about other, bad drivers.

I don't see rape prevention as something fundamentally different from defensive driving, locking your doors, or having an alarm system. We can't count on other people to take care of us, and we certainly can't count on everyone to not commit a single crime against us.

how long have we been "educating" women on how to not get raped instead of putting a little effort on telling men not to rape, and rapes still happen (alot)?

in other words: it aint working. people are still getting raped. time to try another method (one where men are held responsible for there actions maybe?)

not to say women shouldnt protect themselves, like any normal person would. i agree with ank that there needs to be emphasis on both but im going to say there really needs to be more emphasis on men not raping. since i have never seen one article on that subject (cept for on feminist blogs)

I don't know what's left to say. I would like to address one somewhat bizarre assumption apparently held by Jessica, Phlegmatic, and sunflwrmoonbeam, i.e. that rapists aren't ostracized, punished, or looked down upon enough.

e.g.:

Its like the person who gets the least scrutiny is the man who actually commited the rape

rape would significantly decrease if we put rapists up to public scrutiny.

In what universe are convicted rapists not held up to "scrutiny"? Do prison and lifetime sex offender registration (name, address and photo on the internet, in many states) not constitute a "counter-incentive" against rape? You could say there could be improvements at the margins, like increased sentences, etc, but that debate could be had about every crime. Violent rapists will usually get out of prison at some point, and reoffending is a big concern in many cases, but it's not as if society looks the other way and you are the voices in the wilderness bringing the novel idea that rape is wrong.

In reality, it's tough to determine in many cases whether rape occurred, and meet the legal standard for proving it. As with any crime, you could lower the standard (though not constitutionally) and cast a wider net, sweeping up more innocent people in the process - but that isn't going to happen.

Point being, public attitudes toward rape are not nearly as permissive as you seem to think. Real generally, I'd rather be convicted of murder than rape. The consequences are, in social terms, lighter.

If the only room for improvement you see with respect to attitudes about rape is for people to stop talking about precautions by women, I disagree. If there is something else you feel could be done to enlighten the criminally violent and keep them on the straight and narrow, I and many others concerned with criminal justice would love to hear it.

elextrodot:

How many "No means no" posters and T-shirts are out there and chants are out there, how many "take back the night" vigils", and yet rape continues...How many ways are there to present the "Don't Rape" message to its target audience?

It's reasonable to think education has an impact, as generations run their course - but that takes a lot of time. And part of that education is (very logically) directed toward the potential victims, and relates to alcohol consumption. It's bewildering to see that the aim of equipping potential victims has somehow become a sign (to some) that society blames those victims and turns a blind eye to sexual assault.

I'm with Jessica.

A few years ago, after a spate of pick-pocketing in the subway, the police released a public service ad telling people how to avoid being the victim of a pick-pocket.

I remember thinking, why are they wasting our time with this? Why don't they put more effort into telling the pick-pockets to respect other people and stop being pick-pockets? Why is it always up to the victim to protect herself?

Honestly, though, is there any woman out there over the age of 13 who hasn't gotten some form of the "stay safe" message? Has any parent sent their daughter out into the night without warnings about avoiding dark streets, staying with a buddy, watching the bartender mix your drink and then keeping it covered, walking with your keys sticking out between your fingers, never going anywhere with a guy, blah, blah, blah, selfprotectioncakes. I mean, it's a good message, just in general, but no woman is going to read that study and say, "Oh, my God, I totally didn't know that! What a shock! This changes my entire approach to going out!"

What will it to? Contribute to the "blame the victim" mentality, probably. I'm sure we all remember the furor after Jennifer Moore was murdered - ten thousand questions about what she was doing out, why she was drinking, why she was walking around, what she was wearing, but remarkably few about why former-violent-offender Draymond Coleman was free to rape and murder her. Funny, isn't it.

"Doing things like drinking do not increase your risk of being raped--being in the company of a rapist does."

...and when we are less able to defend ourselves while in the company of rapists (when we are small children, frail elders, comatose, passed-out drunk, whatever) our risk is higher still.

"Why must we choose or or the other? Why is this strange either-or/black or white attitude so prevalent?"

Great point.

"How many "No means no" posters and T-shirts are out there and chants are out there, how many "take back the night" vigils", and yet rape continues..."

you really think "no means no" actually means anything to a would be rapist? (of the non sociopath kind). how about teaching men that women are people to, just like them, and maybe shouldnt be looked at like peices of meat or conquests. theres alot lacking in just simply saying no means no.

"Stop getting drunk and raping women, asshole"

Best. Imaginary Headline. Ever.

You know, I shouldn't have to say this, but women are not cars. I don't accept analogies that compare my body to an object. The fact is that there is not a culture of victim-blaming when it comes to car theft; cars that have been stolen do not deal with years and years of traumatic after-effects, and that is because cars are not sentient human beings. This is not an acceptable analogy.

Further, the assumption behind this kind of headline is that women are not already aware of rape, that we do not already take significant precautions. We do. We know. Why is the assumption always that hey, wow, I never realized that being drunk could affect my judgment/make me more dependent on others/render me weaker! Thank goodness the media alerted me! Now I can avoid rape!

It's absurd. I spent a lot of my adolescence binge-drinking. I wasn't raped. You know why? Nobody raped me. Rapists are the risk factor for rape. And talking of years and years of "fruitless" education, for how many hundreds of years have women been told to modify their behavior so as to avoid rape? Gee, it doesn't seem to work. Maybe we should focus on the men, just for a change of pace.

Jessica comments:

Doing things like drinking do not increase your risk of being raped--being in the company of a rapist does.

Ok, how about this, then: don't do your binge drinking in the company of rapists. Or better yet: don't be in the company of rapists, whether (binge) drinking or not!

I remember a similar argument once about adult men who molest underage women. The criminals are the adult men, definitely, but what should one say to the girls? Someone pointed out that there's no point telling the men it's wrong--they know it already. They're not molesting out of ignorance, so preaching to all men that molesting underage girls is bad won't do any good. The girls, OTOH--advice to be careful could save them a world of hurt!

This raises feminist hackles, though. I remember a post on DKos about women being fearful of getting drunk while bar-hopping. I pointed out that I believe it is totally my duty to explain to my daughter that such behavior is unwise; even that it is more unwise for her than it is for her brother. Many commenters took me to task for such "mind-bending" advice, since it would lead my daughter to think herself as more constrained than boys/men around her.

Well, I sure hope so! I want her to demand equality in education, career, civil rights, etc. And while I hope neither of my kids gets shit-faced while bar hopping with strangers, most certainly I will point out to my daughter that it is more dangerous for her.

Of course, pro forma I should say it to boys and girls, but we all know that it is far more relevant to women than to men!

And yes, I know I've been inconsistent in using boys/men and girls/women.

"how many hundreds of years have women been told to modify their behavior so as to avoid rape?"

For at least some of those years, weren't women and girls told to modify their behavior so as to get raped within forced arranged marriage instead of raped outside marriage?

As a junior at a middle sized university who works the night shift at the front desk of the dorms, I will tell you that boys KNOW that raping girls is wrong. BUT, a lot of them also think that girls get drunk because they want to have sex, that a girl who's unintelligibly drunk is still able to consent and that if a girl goes out wearing a short skirt and a top she's falling out of and proceeds to get drunk enough to fall out of her top, that she should really expect that guys are going to try and have sex with her. They don't think this is rape.

What we need to do is educate our boys about sex; that it's better when you have a partner who's able to consent and participate in the act, that respecting women will lead to a better sexual experience than a one night stand with a girl too drunk to remember her own name. And we need to let them know that rape is sex with anyone who is unable to consent, whether due to age or intoxication.

That said, I still think girls should be careful when they drink not because drunk girls are "responsible" for being raped, but because of the possibility of being slipped something. A friend of mine had her drink drugged by a bartender who'd been paid off by a guy who hounded her to have 'just one drink'. Go out with friends, trust your instincts, have a system so that everyone knows when someone needs to leave. That's what I'd recommend to the girls I see at my job. That doesn't mean you're responsible for the actions of a potential rapist, it means you recognize that the threat's there and you have a system to handle it.

What we need to do is educate our boys about sex

I'll buy that. About sex and about life. There is so much they need to know beside "don't rape", that would be far more effective in making then into people who wouldn't and couldn't do that kind of thing.

I think that by focusing on the university environment Ginny is able to nail a big part of the issue. IMO we are at the tail end of the "anything goes in college" era, and it is shaking out in a number of disturbing ways. Obviously it's not just college, but that's the classic merging point of so much booze, aggression, and lack of immediate consequences.

Another thing I might not have appreciated is how much girls have it drummed into their heads that they might get raped. I can see how you would want to know that someone is working at least as hard on boys.

I don't think it's time to let up on cautioning young women, but intelligently, and with intelligent efforts to heading off the problem at the source with young men. However, there will always be that "drunk driver" random factor - how do you teach your kids (of either gender) just how fast and out of the blue bad shit can happen, unless you get specific (and strategic) about avoiding danger without getting specific about the dangers themselves?

unless you get specific (and strategic) about avoiding danger without getting specific about the dangers themselves?

typo - should be "How do you get specific (and strategic)..."

"how long have we been "educating" women on how to not get raped instead of putting a little effort on telling men not to rape, and rapes still happen (alot)?

in other words: it aint working. people are still getting raped. time to try another method (one where men are held responsible for there actions maybe?)

not to say women shouldnt protect themselves, like any normal person would. i agree with ank that there needs to be emphasis on both but im going to say there really needs to be more emphasis on men not raping. since i have never seen one article on that subject (cept for on feminist blogs)" --elektrodot

precisely, elektrodot. it's only on feminist blogs. what would be refreshing is if it were in men's magazines like maxim, fhm and stuff.

"In what universe are convicted rapists not held up to "scrutiny"? How many "No means no" posters and T-shirts are out there and chants are out there, how many "take back the night" vigils", and yet rape continues...How many ways are there to present the "Don't Rape" message to its target audience?" --biwah

no means no posters and t-shirts, take back the night vigils are feminist venues. you don't see no means no posters or t-shirts in maxim, stuff or fhm.

"Has any parent sent their daughter out into the night without warnings about avoiding dark streets, staying with a buddy, watching the bartender mix your drink and then keeping it covered, walking with your keys sticking out between your fingers, never going anywhere with a guy, blah, blah, blah, selfprotectioncakes." --ACG

"Why is the assumption always that hey, wow, I never realized that being drunk could affect my judgment/make me more dependent on others/render me weaker! Thank goodness the media alerted me! Now I can avoid rape! It's absurd. I spent a lot of my adolescence binge-drinking. I wasn't raped. You know why? Nobody raped me. Rapists are the risk factor for rape. And talking of years and years of "fruitless" education, for how many hundreds of years have women been told to modify their behavior so as to avoid rape? Gee, it doesn't seem to work. Maybe we should focus on the men, just for a change of pace."

good points.

one thing women should be warned about is the date rape drugs. as in, don't ever let a guy get you a drink. don't let your drink out of sight when a guy can put the drug in it. i'm not sure how women let that happen.

donna, I'll tell you how women 'let' themselves get drugged: they don't. It just happens. Like I said above, my friend had a drug put into her drink by a bartender. She ordered the drink herself, but the guy who was buying her the drink had paid off the bartender before. She was able to tell what was happening as soon as she took one sip and left with her friend. My boyfriend was at a party one time and saw a girl with a can of beer engaged in a conversation with her friend, as she was talking a guy walking by dropped a pill through the opening in the can. The drink never left her hand, and she probably opened the can herself. My bf warned her before she drank any of it. Drugging is something that can happen to smart women, attentive women, women who aren't even drinking alcohol. Unless you open the can/bottle and mix the drink yourself and literally never take your eyes off your drink for one second, not to make eye contact to talk with someone, not to check your watch, check your cell phone, watch a television set, it can happen. I'm not trying to scare anyone, I just don't like the implications with saying "women let that happen".

Biggest message, take care of yourself, take care of your friends. Pay attention and trust your instincts. If something feels wrong, it probably is. I'm sorry if I seem touchy, but working and living on a college campus makes these issues more "real" for me.

"don't ever let a guy get you a drink." Just a question, I feel like a royal jackass if I don't offer to get someone a drink, is there any way to appropriately offer someone a drink?

"My boyfriend was at a party one time and saw a girl with a can of beer engaged in a conversation with her friend, as she was talking a guy walking by dropped a pill through the opening in the can. The drink never left her hand."

This is what gets me. The drink is in your hand and a random guy can put a pill in it? Or maybe I'm more vigilant than most in these situations.

Which clearly means the onus is on women to protect themselves. Sigh.

Who should the onus to protect her be on then? The rapist? That doesn't seem like a particularly effective way assure a woman's safety.

They should put

Stop raping drunk women

Stop getting drunk and raping women, asshole

in every issue of Maxim, Stuff and FHM. But that would be antithetical to the goal of these magazines.

I wonder what the men wh