Exactly, Jessica! The separation between sexual awareness and sexual promiscuity is an easy line to blur, for those who don't know better. And it's easy to sell to those who SHOULD know better. But it should be understood that there's a difference, a very marked one!

hey now. aint nothing wrong with a little drunken tit flashing (especially in big glass elevators...you know the kind). haha

Heh, good point, elektrodot.

I love it how Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan stand for "The feminists I hate." When feminists are supposed to be too promiscuous, Steinem is a stand in for Susie Bright. When they're supposed to be prudes, she's a stand in for Catharine MacKinnon.

I can only quote Jello Biafra when faced with Tipper Gore's claim that the Dead Kennedys were "a Trojan Horse bringing violence, drugs, degeneracy, and promiscuity right into our very homes" (or something like that, I may not have the quote exactly right):

Well, we did our best.

Thank you for this post.

It is sad that women always seem to be blamed for everything. Let's talk about the male responsibility!

And let's also think about what I have been discussing with my friend Supergirlest ... Read Supergirlest's latest blog post.

Is gender a trap?
Is everything women do perceived as an invitation for sex?
What can we do about new degrading coffee shops that sell sex with coffee?
Who supports porn?
Is the perception of all women in the hands of those who don't mind selling their bodies?

This is the most mind opening essay.
Powerful stuff. Be prepared to THINK.

Sexuality, masculinity and men's choices - by Robert Jensen

I am struggling between people having the right to "wear what they want" and do "what they want"...and drawing lines that say you shouldn't (...or even it shouldn't be allowed or supported) to dress half naked and self coffee.

Are women responsible for how men treat them? I know this is not that clear cut of an issue...and I am thinking out loud....

Does anyone want to help me out as I wade through these murky waters?

I don't think women's bodies should ever be up for sale and degradation....why does it keep happening?

The other night I met a guy who initially seemed reasonably okay/cool. I excused myself to the restroom and apparently he'd been talking about me while I was gone, which is lovely (my friend and his friend were there too -- the two of them hit on us together, etc.). He clearly wasn't listening carefully because he whispered to me that for a second he'd been worried that I was a feminist, but it turned out that my friend was the one who was a feminist (I don't know if she'd give herself that label or not... she's certainly not as radical as I am, but few people are ;)). I looked at him and said, "no, I am a feminist."

He expressed surprise that I hadn't bitten his head off, or punched him or something. I just looked puzzled and asked him why he would think that. He said (PREDICTABLE!) that he thought feminists hated men. "Well," I said very calmly and showing him a lot more respect than he deserved at that point, "then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of feminism."

I didn't plan to hit him before, but after he revealed his astounding stupidity I kinda wanted to. Funny how they create those self-fulfilling prophecies.

Being the idiot he clearly was, I'm sure he left thinking he'd met a "special" feminist or someone who wasn't a "real" feminist. Grrrr.

Thank you for this post.

It is sad that women always seem to be blamed for everything. Let's talk about the male responsibility!

And let's also think about what I have been discussing with my friend Supergirlest ... Read Supergirlest's latest blog post.

Is gender a trap?
Is everything women do perceived as an invitation for sex?
What can we do about new degrading coffee shops that sell sex with coffee?
Who supports porn?
Is the perception of all women in the hands of those who don't mind selling their bodies?

This is the most mind opening essay.
Powerful stuff. Be prepared to THINK.

Sexuality, masculinity and men's choices - by Robert Jensen

I am struggling between people having the right to "wear what they want" and do "what they want"...and drawing lines that say you shouldn't (...or even it shouldn't be allowed or supported) to dress half naked and self coffee.

Are women responsible for how men treat them? I know this is not that clear cut of an issue...and I am thinking out loud....

Does anyone want to help me out as I wade through these murky waters?

I don't think women's bodies should ever be up for sale and degradation....why does it keep happening?

Lawfairy, I have been in that scenario far too frequently. Sometimes, I go on to be friends with the guy mostly because he didn't seem to hate feminists as much as misunderstand them...and that's normally where I like to step in and enlighten/educate. Then, you hit a crucial point, or in my experience, an "in depth" exploration of the differences between feminist sexual awareness and sexual promiscuity. The "gentleman" in question asks me to put out (we were not in a relationship, mind you). Why? "Because you fought for it, babe." I wish I could say he was joking in poor taste, but no, he was an idiot.

antah, how irritating. It's stuff like this that makes it difficult for me to want to be in a relationship. I have friends who keep telling me there are "decent" guys out there, and I agree there are plenty of "decent" guys. I just don't have the time or the inclination to educate them about every little thing, and without education they're unlikely to understand me on the level necessary for a real relationship to work. I just find the whole thing tiring, which sadly means I'm perpetuating the stereotype of the "lonely" single feminist (even though I'm anything but lonely).

I thought all feminist were cat loving lesbian prudes? (j/k) Once again were blamed on things were trying to prevent (aka young women feeling like they need to have sex to get attention or attract men)..what evil will they blame on us next?

Litter. I have yet to see feminism being blamed for litter, so it's about time!

Too easy, EG. Obviously if we were tidying up after the rest of the world the way women are supposed to, there wouldn't be such a mess left over.

I hear ya, Law Fairy. (On the relationship thing, not so much the littering thing.) And I'm sorry, but as soon as someone spouting anti-feminist rhetoric/BS invokes God to illustrate a point, I stop listening. Theology as politics has never set well with me because it assumes that everyone shares the same religious beliefs, and that sort of assumption really cheeses me off!

Hmm, good point, TLF. OK. Let me try again. What about...blizzards! Blizzards, definitely.

I think the irony of all of this - the common guy's fear of the man-hating prude feminist - is that I suspect that if feminism prevailed, ultimately it would mean more and better sex for everybody. With the double-standards gone, people properly educated, and people able to talk willingly and openly about various types of relationships instead of being trapped into archaic modes of existance, it seems inevitable to me.

Can we have an "I blame feminism" thread?

jeff, agreed. Unfortunately, for many people, understanding this seems to require a great deal of pain to the head. Either theirs, from being slapped upside it, or ours, for banging it against a brick wall.

I agree with Jeff, although I feel that that is a bit of a dangerous way to look at it, that men should support feminism because it ultimately benefits men, as opposed to the actual reason.

Also, for those of you out there that have expressed disdain with the dating process, I suggest we set up a Feministing-sponsored personals site, since the majority of males here (excluding the trolls) would probably not cringe at the idea of hearing that the girl they are on a date with is a dirty feminist. In fact many of them would probably be delighted to hear that. Sadly I'm only half kidding about starting such a site...

Oh, so if a woman feel comfortable enough with her sexuality and/or enjoys sex enough to sleep with more than one man who isn't her husband, she's a slut? By the various gods! Yet, I suppose that to the IWF, it's alright for men to fuck around with women who aren't their wives? It wouldn't surprise me much.

Oh, EG! Don't give them any more ideas! I'm sure they'd find a way to blame the weather on feminism... Perhaps something about women being allowed to drive, so there are more cars, and more greenhouse gasses, so there's more crazy weather!

Red, yes, except that these are the same crazies who think global warming is a bogeyman myth created by God-hating evolutionists to oppress the poor, downtrodden oil companies. Not that inconsistency has ever stopped them...

Two things:

1) Aside from Camille Paglia's quote about Madonna and Britney smooching, she does not quote a single other feminist or even draw connections between feminist speech/actions and this alleged increase in promiscuity (heck, she doesn't even prove that girls or boys are more promiscuous.)

2) I had NO idea that Lindsey Lohan, Paris Hilton and Britney Spears were the daughters and/or grandaughters of radfems. You learn a new thing every day!

-Iz

Okay, is it bad that I'm not at all surprised about this? The only thing that really annoyed me was the low-quality writing. Then again, it's awful hard to take someone seriously when their essay reads like one I could have written in middle school.

Except that I would have actually made a connection in there somewhere rather than throw around some cliches ("Kiss of Death"? "Tickled pink"? Are you honest?) and assume that my readers aren't actually going to read my peace critically.

In conclusion, this gem:
Sadly, girls making out with girls has become commonplace.

Oh no! It's the radical feminist lesbian agenda come to eat our children! Fear the exploration of sexuality!

that men should support feminism because it ultimately benefits men, as opposed to the actual reason.

Yeah. I'm not suggesting that. But what a nice side-benefit for everyone, no? And honestly, if I can gather the attention of a typical male friend with that as an opener, well, it's better than nothing.

Sorry Jeff, didn't mean to insuate that you were indeed suggesting that, just as clarification to anyone passing by that may have misinterpreted it.

I think the irony of all of this - the common guy's fear of the man-hating prude feminist - is that I suspect that if feminism prevailed, ultimately it would mean more and better sex for everybody. With the double-standards gone, people properly educated, and people able to talk willingly and openly about various types of relationships instead of being trapped into archaic modes of existance, it seems inevitable to me. But what a nice side-benefit for everyone, no? And honestly, if I can gather the attention of a typical male friend with that as an opener, well, it's better than nothing.

Happy (early) Valentines Day to you.

Well, if it's true that feminism did not create sluttiness, then thanks for nothing! :-)

Jeff, you also get a cookie.

Everyone on feministing gets a cookie from me.

Law Fairy, I think we're dating the same men.

Of course, modern men all assume that since I'm educated and ambitious that I must want to sleep around. Otherwise, I'm not "in touch with my sexuality."

RedDragoness - you would be surprised to know how HARSH conservative men are to other men who run around. Most of my friends are much more conservative than I, and the guys mince no words when it comes to even the faintest whiff of male sluttiness (sorry, lacking a better word at 2 am), even if the male in question is a virgin. I've heard some pretty harsh snarkiness. I know that you're never going to believe me (until you see it for yourself), but there is no double standard: it's all about being an equal opportunity offender.

Did Feminism create sluts, or did sluts create Feminism? That's a real chicken-or-the-egg debate there.

Erm...well...I'm a virgin...and a heathen by birth...and a career woman...and I've never had a drink or a toke of anything in my life...and I'm an atheist...and a martial artist who paints on the side...and a volunteer therapist for trauma victims...and I've also experienced painful neck cramping under the glass ceiling. Am I a "bad" feminist because I've never had the desire to experience pre-marital sex (not for religious, anti-sluttiness, or any kind of self-hating reasons) even though I support my sisters in need? While I love this blog, sometimes the posts here make me feel uncomfortable or traitorous for that reason alone. I know that's not necessarily the case, but it's lonely here in virgin-by-choice-feminist-by-necessity-land....

Why does everyone care about whether Britney or Lindsay wear underwear? I hear it all the time! They are in an uproar about this, yet no one seems bother by Rush Limbaugh's Nobel Peace Prize nomination?

There a surpriosingly a lot of people that I know that are anti-lesbian. Not against gay men as much, though. I assume it has to do with that they are girls because a lot of boys I know are for lesbians but against gay men. I don't get it. I really don't. Maybe they are afraid of being sexually assualte/ harassed. Because every gay person fucks every person of their gender.*sarcasm*

It annoys me.

Antahkarana,

I hear with on that. I think I'm too young to have sex. I don't think I'm ready yet.

If someone makes fun of you for that, tell them to meet me at the end of the playground at noon. I'll bring them down to Chinatown. (I love saying that ^^)

"sometimes the posts here make me feel uncomfortable or traitorous for that reason alone. I know that's not necessarily the case, but it's lonely here in virgin-by-choice-feminist-by-necessity-land...."

heh im sure it is...but since thats not the experiance of most people on here (it would seem), of course there going to post comments that relate to their own experiances...i wouldnt take it personally.

Haha thanks mimey. Playgrounds at noon are where and when it all goes down. Elektrodot, I'm not offended at all :) I was just bringing in another perspective that agrees with a lot of what people are saying based on their experiences, even if I haven't had the same ones. It was in response to the chicken or the egg comment. I don't think sluts created feminism or feminists created sluts. I'm sure we all agree there's greater complexity to subjective situations such as this one and branding or blaming one movement or school of thought for it makes no sense.

And jeff nails it. I think that, beyond plain ignorance of modern feminism, some guys are resistant to feminism for the same reason some women are: Maybe we aren't better off now, but at least it's familiar. Taking the step into that big, fresh world that's better but different is scary to people who've become comfortable in and accustomed to traditional gender roles.

That's why I like to approach my man-friendly feminism with a healthy dose of Gentleman Jack and a healthier dose of humor. It seems to loosen up all involved parties.

(Oh, no, did I say "loose"?)

I have so much trouble with this situation. I'm very pro-sex (women should seek out what they want sexually, have it as little or as much as they want how they want) and very anti-porn (anti-people-being-turned-into-sex-objects-and-then-a-huge-million-dollar-industry-reaps-the-benefits) and very pro-men (the gender roles for men need to be changed too, and they are, and most of the ones I talk to enjoy having more freedom), but everyone I talk to here in po-dunk, Texas seems to think that I'm just facing the consequences of my own feminism. But I really don't think we are. This whole "red light culture", as Ariel Levy put it, isn't it just what virginity was to Victorians in a modern day sheep's clothing? I mean, the right-wing Christian activists say they don't want it happening, but the rest of our society is in the crowd screaming, "show us your tits!" And girls like me, girls who rather sit home and read or eat some ice cream, what does society think of us? If the right-wingers want to blame someone for "sluttiness", they need to do no more than look in a mirror. They are, after all, the ones who enforced male privilege.

what I really wonder is who I, as a feminist, really am? I mean sometimes I'm a huge prude, who needs a good fucking, other times I'm so ugly and monstrous that no one would want to fuck me except for my other hideous feminist friends. And other times like now I'm overly sexed and way too slutty. Obviously, I'm being sarcastic, but it seems like these attacks are only to bring us down, like grade schoolers do to each other.

I just got finished with the production of Vagina MOnologues at DePaul University and this was a nice reminder of precisely why we perform the show despite the representational problems within the script.

As our Faculty advisor phrased it, "I don't think you can write a show about "women's lives" and ever be totally inclusive or represenational".

What the IWF women don't get is that the show isn't made up out of no where, it is a collection of narratives highlighting some problems with women's lives and celebrating the utter amazing possibilities that women bodied people have!

A surprising treat for today.

>>

Certainly there is a great variety of attitudes out there. On the whole, however, research is pretty clear that both men and women hold more negative attitudes towards gay men than towards lesbian women.

In general, the penalties for acting in "gender inappropriate" ways are higher for men (sissies) than for women (tomboys).

As a side note, I'm not trying to say that there aren't pervasive negative attitudes against "masculine behaving women" or against lesbian women. Only pointing out the relative degree of upset generally caused.

Most posters seem angered by the tone of the article, but I wonder if there is some truth to the claim that feminist movement paved the way for girls gone wild.

If the rigid bible thumpers had their way, men and women would certainly not be having any premarital sex or bumping or grinding.

The feminist message of granting women more choices and loosening moral proscriptions against sexual prescriptions would certainly foster more openness to short-term affairs by women.

The fact that some women are exploited as these sexual proscriptions are loosened may be a result of embracing this feminist, even though it was certainly not the original feminist goal. It may reflect that only part of the feminist message is being heard. Young girls are hearing the "be free to express yourself" message but not fully considering the exploitation angle.