Wow.
I love that The Vagina Monologues is anti-male, and is, apparently, "a vulgar play" that degrades women.
Who knew?

Kudos ot Jennifer, for sure, though. Not only for calling TBD the sham that it is, but for pointing out how ridiculous it is to claim that the VM is anti-male. I rather like feminism as a pro-person movement.

Vagina fatigue? WTF?

Always imporant to note that many men are involved in V-Day activities as well. But I do think men should find their voices to discredit the whole "anti-male" argument.

Three teensy little nitpicks:
1. Feminists are responsible for an inrease in one night stands... huh?
2. Talking about violence against women is "anti-male"...I suppose so, if by being pro-male, you mean pro-rape.
Now, what was the other one...?
Oh yeah... the whole straw argument that feminism killed Cupid. What a load of horsepucky... Good job, Jenn, for setting it straight!

Chubby, cherub faced, flying creatures who shoot arrows at people have always effing freaked me out. I'm glad one of us supposedly took the bastard down.

Go, Jennifer! I am so glad she evoked STRAW! I for one, am not suffering from vagina fatigue; in fact, I take mine everywhere I go.

But I do think men should find their voices to discredit the whole "anti-male" argument.

I agree, completely.

1. Feminists are responsible for an inrease in one night stands... huh?

And even if they were... as long as it's both parties want, who cares?
Don't get me wrong, I find the claim questionable, too, but even if it's true, my first thought was "So what?"
My (admittedly unscientific) survey has shown me that most of the people I know who've had hook-ups don't seem to think it's a problem. The majority seem to appreciate how casual and low-key dating has become- it takes a lot of the pressure off, and makes it easier to have a good time.

If Feminism can take credit for killing cupid and for making dating less stressful and more enjoyable, hooray for Feminism!

I think my favorite moment is when the woman from the Heritage Foundation says that we need to be raising men's standards for sex not bringing women down to men's level.

i'm pretty sure that was the most anti-male statement that was made.

and i don't see what's so bad about people choosing to have one night stands. i mean, holy shit, the last thing i wanted in college was to get all involved in a long-term relationship when i had so many decisions to make about the direction my life was going. but, you know, i still had needs....

and i did really enjoy jennifer's "i love it when a guy opens my door before he slips me a roofie" comment.

I dont get this argument. Its like others have said, surely trying to end violence against women is trying to promote more loving relationships? So that is tied to valentines right? Or did I miss something.

"raising mens standards on sex, and not bringing womens down to where men are at" didnt quite sit well with me. Ive yet to have sex, but if I ever did, I know I would want it to be something shared and pleasurable to both of us. Obviously Im in no position to say for sure, but I thought that was an okay standard? Or does being a guy mean you have naturally low standards when it comes to sex?

I love Jenn, but gotta give kudos to Irene! Damn, she really gave it to them too with her "I want to go out for a romantic dinner AND see VM."

what is this argument even about??? i don't understand. v-day vs. romance? there are so many fucked up assumptions if these things cannot exist together. of all the feminist discussions i've had, i've NEVER encountered anyone trying to tell me that dating is anti-feminist. violence? yes. meat eating? i've heard it. capitalism? check. dating? hm. nope, i don't see it. unless your only dating option is a violent fuck-head, in which case, maybe we should attend v-day instead.
i read that vagina-fatigue thing on salon. i get it. no, i don't think the author was sick of her vag, she was just sick of hearing about how her vag is the source of her empowerment, her essence. i think v-day is great and had organized it for many years, but i agree that to tell women that it's who they really are is a little much. but i also realize that it's saying these things in a context of a super misogynist/'vaginas-are-ugly' culture.
also, if i have to hear about women's sexual behavior just mimicking men's once more, i'm going to flip out. oh my gawd, all those students raised their hands when asked if they have had one night stands! Oh the humanity! A nation of hussies!
Christ, get your morality out of my face and stop preaching about it in a context of rape and domestic violence.

I think my favorite moment is when the woman from the Heritage Foundation says that we need to be raising men's standards for sex not bringing women down to men's level.

i'm pretty sure that was the most anti-male statement that was made. - Posted by: Colleen

Good point.

Where is Jennifer Pozner's piece on it? I always love what she has to sya but I cannot seem to find it. Anybody have a link?

So... consent is bad, unless you get flowers and chocolate first? That's what their argument seems to boil down to.

Durga_is_my_homey,

Where is Jennifer Pozner's piece on it? I always love what she has to sya but I cannot seem to find it.

Jennifer Pozner is in the clip. She does an outstanding job.

I love Jenn, but gotta give kudos to Irene! Damn, she really gave it to them too with her "I want to go out for a romantic dinner AND see VM."

Damn, that was the best part. durga, she's the lady with the flowing black hair.

donna_drako, thank you, yeah. I didn't bother to watch initially (blood-pressure reasons ;)) but after changing my mind a doing so I realized what was meant. I'm glad I did watch it!

Go Jennifer Prozner! Yes let's all be human FIRST.

It also sounds like IWF thinks rape is only an issue for college students.

I have been single and tying to "find the right person" for years...and I was DRUGGED AND RAPED in my thirties.

This take back the date thing is fucking stupid...it is pandering to gender roles!

Why does everything have to be "Should"?

"Women SHOULD just take the flowers"

"Men SHOULD open the door"

Who is directing the fucking show? Me or them?

How about "Take back our Humanity" instead!

Women should just take the flowers. Right. As opposed to the hundreds of women who, when presented with a bunch of flowers, seize them, tear them to shreds, jump up and down upon them, and then throw them out the window, thanks to feminism.

I've been known to bring flowers to the men I'm dating. You don't need to be female to like flowers.

Wow, I was anticipating an idiot-fest. Way better than that!

The black anti-feminist woman sounded like a complete fool, and the white anti-feminist woman sounded aggressive and anti-everything

"Why do these have to be mutually exclusive?" Precisely!

And because one-night stands are something you SHOULD be ashamed of! Sorry, I forgot *rolls eyes*

I love Jenn, but gotta give kudos to Irene! Damn, she really gave it to them too with her "I want to go out for a romantic dinner AND see VM."

I really don't get their logic, surely the women acting in the play and those going to see it are still partaking in the "traditional" valentines day that IWF seems to think is on the verge of extinction

When I was a kid, not only did my dad buy my mom something kickass for Valentine's day, but he would always buy my sister and I each a box of chocolates as well. And this continued every Valentine's day until I left for college. I still send my family valentines every year. So for me Valentine's is about more than just romantic love, but love in general and also appreciation (it aint just for thanksgiving anymore). I still have the Precious moments mug my parents got me for Valentines day when I was just 16, i treasure that mug

But I also freaking LOVE the Vagina Monologues. I've seen it twice while I was in college. The second time I took my current boyfriend and he enjoyed it, and watching him yell out "CUNT" with the rest of the audience was classic (but he did tell me that he felt some of the jokes were over his head because he doesn't have a vagina) But apparently according thw IWF's logic I'm just some crazed radical feminist trying to emasculate my poor innocent boyfriend and ruin Valentines day (which we still celebrated with a yummy dinner and were asleep by 10)

Goodness, I hate when people make a big deal out of the Vagina Monologues. I've always viewed the show as being honest about women's sexuality.

Anywho, I don't see the point of something like take back the date. That woman who is head of IWF has done nothing but made it seem as if feminists are out to destroy Valentine's Day. And why should it have to be the guy who buys flowers? O_o

Love that Irene - I was thinking EXACTLY what she said just as she was about to say it.

Also - okay - don't be mad at me - partly because I'm working so hard at doing this myself, but do you notice how often many of the women say, "I think"? They start their assertions with "I think."

Just a tip I've been given over and over by a variety of writers and orators: when you say I think, you're giving room for doubt. I know it's supposed to be more like you're showing some consideration or something, but when trying to make a persuasive argument, it's best to just say it - not say "I think..."

Know what I mean? I think?

(just teasing - but really - if you look at any piece of writing or any speech and remove the "I think that"s from them, they'll be a lot more assertive)

so one thing is that i don't care for the IWF woman's fake smiles after making a "point." it makes me queasy because it just seems like she fancies herself all kinds of pro-male and feminine. of course i am assuming but i feel fair in so doing since she likes to oh so much.

secondly OOH does it makes steam come out of my ears when genevieve says "there are plenty of ways to draw attention to violence against women without these type of shenanigans." yes yes well organized productions that give all proceeds to charity: shenanigans. i think i'd like to TP this woman's house, show her how i define shenanigans.

Nice observation Jill, sometimes I start my assertions with "I think" and I didn't really spend time thinking about it. Like it happens sub-consciously, you know?

There is a VM production going on soon at my college campus, and I am very much looking foward to going to it. What makes it even more wonderful is that one of the women playing a role in it is a professor I've had for a bunch of different classes over the last 3 years, and have found her to be an absolute joy to have as a teacher and friend***. Anyway...the point of this little story is what happened when I went to buy my ticket at the student ticket sales desk on campus.

I waited in the line, got up to the front, and said, "1 for the Vagina Monologues on the 24th, please," and handed my student ID to him.

The guy to whom I was speaking asked, "Just one? Don't you need one for your girlfriend, too?"

I looked around, thinking that maybe he thought the girl who was standing behind me was my girlfriend, and then told him "No, just for me. Why would you think I need two?"

He replied to me, "Well I just thought that no guy would go to this unless his girlfriend made him."

The facial expression of the girl working the desk next to him immediately changed to a bizzare mix of horror and laughter at this moron.

I got my ticket and left, feeling sorry for the woman that has to work with him all day.

*** In stark contrast to some of my other professors, who make sexist jokes and comments nearly every class period. But that topic is for another time.

Just to clarify...
When I said what I said below....
---------------------
Why does everything have to be "Should"?

"Women SHOULD just take the flowers" (why?)
"Men SHOULD open the door" (why?)

Who is directing the fucking show? Me or them?
----------------------

...my issue is with the "shoulds". Get flowers, don't get flowers, Give flowers, or don't give flowers....

Just don't insist people live within rigid gender
role definitions.

I love flowers and I give them too. It is just the whole push that you "should" do something because someone says thats what you are supposed to do...bothers me.

No more gender roles please. I want to be me first. Human first.
...and my loving gifts will be what ever I want them to be...and they won't be obligatory....and I won't "expect" anyone to do anything for me out of gender duty...like open a door...

But if they want to open the door... great... thanks ...I will be happy as long as they really want to do it....not because they "should"

Know what I mean?

I saw five minutes of the Vagina Monologues on HBO or somewhere the other night. I didn't like it. I don't think it's vapid, or shallow, or contributes to the destruction of the human race, or is anti-male, or anything of that nature. I just didn't particularly care of it.

I also didn't like A Fish Called Wanda. In a different mood, I might. Over margaritas with my NOW buddies, it'd probably be fun to watch. Alone in my office with my feet propped up and a cup of decaf in my hand, not so much.

I was talking there about VM, not Fish Called Wanda, but the same rule applies.

I suppose the difference is that I'm interested in watching the VM again when I'm in a better mood, but you'd have to pay me to make me click on that YouTube link and watch these IWF ninnies rant about how I'm supposed to old open the car door for my honey, all the while flexing my biceps and smelling like horse balls. Not in the mood.

I open the door for women when they're carrying boxes and I expect the same courtesy. If a woman lets a door slam on me when I'm carrying 30 pounds of books just because it's the feminine thing to do, I get a little pissy.

I don't "date," mostly because I'm almost exclusively heterosocial and spend all my time with women anyway so there's no real whoop to just going out and talking or having a good time. I suppose that could be called a feminist objection to dating, but I prefer to think of it as an endearing eccentricity.

Right now I'm working through issues with a few more traditionally-minded relatives who are absolutely sure that I want to jump the bones of every woman I'm seen in the company with. Apparently they think I'm some nuevo lounge lizard who drops in for dinner with people in between orgies. It's all very tedious, and it reminds me why I don't usually enjoy the company of other heterosexual men.

I wouldn't hang out with the IWF ladies. They wouldn't know what to think of me, either. And I like it that way.

Cheers,

TH

Since the IWF carries on the same broad themes that find the 'v-word' offensive, this debate seems to be between the liberators of Hoohaws and the promoters of Pooterism.

And Pooterists have held sway over the globe for far too long, with the resulting noxious gases clearly impacting their capacity to remain sentient.

When the Vagina Monologues go so mainstream that honest vagina dialogues result, I hope the assholes can return to their proper place in a civil society: to the rear.

Go Jenn! I am so proud to know you girlfriend!

It's okay to send flowers and chocolates. It's also okay not to send them, and to think that if your relationship needs cordiform candy to survive, maybe it's not so strong as you think it is.

Good point, Alon. Dontcha just loooove that MySpace Flash ad that says "Give some, get some." Lord. And local Kay Jewelers has an ad that sings the jingle "Every kiss begins with Kay." If every kiss really begins with Kay, that's called prostitution.

Cheers,

TH

Hey Tom, you might like it if you see it performed live and by a different group. And also you might like some parts of it more than others. My own favorite part is “My vagina is angry and it needs to talk.� So don’t despair in 5 minutes.

cordiform candy

Bwahaha!

Personally, I prefer the phalloform and yoniform candy around this time of year myself :)

RE: Starting sentences with "I think..."

This was a great point, Jill. Even though I've never thought of myself as someone who's shy about expressing her opinion about anything, I find myself doing that all the time. In fact, I usually read over every post I write, before publishing it, and remove all the "I thinks" that seem to have crept in without my noticing.

Ann - isn't it amazing!? I was listening to two women on Talk of the Nation today talking aobut fashion of all things and one of them in particular but both of them in general were constantly prefacing their ideas with "I think."

I've been part of our local NPR's weekly radio political roundup lately and have been EXTREMELY cautious as I speak to make sure that I don't use any of those phrases. Check out what speechwriters write for people in power - do we really hear Pelosi say I think? We shouldn't.

Anyway - there's always next time, and next time, and next time...to say what we want to say. Or write.

I know what you mean. I've been a guest on our local NPR's weekly roundup and have been super cautious about using those phrases so that I sound just as confident as the other guests!!