she was 3 months pregnant-the baby would have never made it regardless AND she has multiple offenses of child abuse and other things. however, she should have been treated. but if someone has that long of a criminal history, i dont blame them for not believe her.

How is it a matter of belief? They gave her multiple changes of pants because of the blood. Bloodflow from vagina + pregnant woman = immediate medical attention.

they didnt have to believe that she was pregnant. also, this woman has offenses of CHILD ABUSE and neglect. methinks its not a bad thing she lost the baby, i am sorry, but to keep having children when you cant take care of other ones/abuse them is abominable. i simply do not feel sorry for this woman. i know that sounds horrible, but she is not a good person. of course, i dont think people should be treated that way if they have made bad decisions,am just not sure if i can truly feel empathy for a woman who is extremely irresponsible. i am trying though. furthermore, i dont think this is a womans issue, i think police do these types of things all the time to all kinds of people. my issue here is that its just another example of how police in general are incometant bullying assholes. IE the rape victim in tampa which my blood is still boiling over.

you don't think she's a "good" woman, therefore she doesn't deserve medical attention? seriously?

So copious vaginal bleeding which the woman tells you is not normal shouldn't be checked out, just to be on the safe side, because she's not a great person? What did the cops want? A signed doctor's note?

i think she deserves medical attention, i dont feel sorry for her and i partly understand why perhaps, with a record, the police might have been slightly skeptical. in the video, she is asking for help, they are not giving her changes of pants or anything. at that point, they dont know anything and have no reason to believe anything. all they know is here is a woman with a criminal record saying she needs to go to the hospital. i do think that when they found out after the fact and they still didnt do something, that is horrendous.

i do think what that woman said to her is way out of line "how is that my problem?" thats just wrong. they could have been far nicer, bc clearly she is not dangerous. however, the fact that they didnt rush her off to the hospital right then and there isnt particularly shocking. i am not sure why anyone would think it is.

I second that EG--especially in the fields of "protection," one's beliefs should not supercede the beliefs of the one seeking help. Confirmation comes after knowledge is attained--clearly not this situation.

I took myself to the emergency room once for *extreme* lower, right-side abdominal pains and the people at the front desk laughed, joking "just your period-go home."
Turned out to be a cyst.

I know as much as the next that periods can be irregular and come in all packages but this mentality that menstruation is a sort of psycho thing women go through and just "pay-them-no-mind-while-on-it" is unnerving. And rampant, I have come to mind. (Rant of the day)

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, Katie. The fact is that the cops were spectacularly wrong, and that tells me that they damn well should have taken her to a hospital. She needed to go. The possbility of that need should supercede any other concern. If they were concerned about her escaping, nothing is to stop them from requesting two or three other cop cars to accompany them.

How can anyone who has sworn to "serve and protect" be so arrogant to think they won't get in trouble for denying help to an actively bleeding person? You'd think they would cover that in the "covering your ass" chapter of the police handbook.

It's kind of sad that I'm more amazed at the officers' sheer stupidity than at their cruelty and indifference.

ok, i see your point, and yes they were indeed completely wrong. but how were they to know that as shes sitting in a car. i mean, once they knew for sure i am in total agreement with you. but unless its obvious, i am not sure i would think that its policy to believe someone with a record when they say stuff like that. however again, your point about backup is very valid.

I agree with other posters here: medical attention comes first. Even people who lead cops on high-speed chases which end in spectacular crashes strewing cocaine all over the highway get an ambulance. There's no excuse, and I would be very surprised if they didn't break protocol.

Katie says: "Police in general are incompetent bullying assholes." Riiiight. First of all, these cops were pretty calm and didn't "bully" her, unless you call asking her for compliance with their instructions "bullying." They assumed they were dealing with a liar, which was dead wrong and quite probably a function of (possibly subconscious) racism, but other than that (egregious) error, they basically just did their jobs.

Second, I would like to know how making a statement like that is different from saying, "women in general are stupid, lying whores," or "blacks in general are crack-addled petty thieves."

Don't tell me it's supported by some empirical evidence of prevalence, or by self-selection to the job. Plenty of cops are assholes, sure. Plenty of grocery checkout people are assholes. Plenty of teachers are assholes. Plenty of doctors are assholes. And the fact is, blacks are statistically more likely than whites to be crack-addicted and to commit property crimes. So does that excuse prejudice or even callousness towards any of those people as a group? I certainly don't think so.

Consider the possibility that it is attitudes like the one you've expressed her that make it very hard for *good* cops (and yes, there IS such a thing) to want to continue in their profession -- and for good people to want to join the profession.

Congratulations, you're part of the problem.

Suspended with pay. Of course. How is that a punishment again? Man, I'd love to be suspended with pay. Then I could stay home and watch TV all day.

you can say whatever you want katty- but we have two incidences in one week of police incompentance. clearly, you dont hear about the good stuff, but i can tell you numerous stories, from numerous people about police incompetance AND brutality. even just from people who get pulled over for speeding and are faced with an asshole on a power trip. personally, most cops i know are former bullies on a power trip. its sad that the profession attracts alot of that, but living in NYC i see alot of it. and excuse me, making that statement is NOTHING like saying all blacks are crack addled theives. saying that is racism, saying cops are very corrupt (and have been historically) is what, copism? its basing it on a profession, not a human beings innate qualities that dont make them inferior. perhaps i have had and also heard bad experiences, but where i am from, most cops are misogynist AND racist bullies. do you think the numerous stories of how hard it is for women in the police force are untrue?

furthermore, i think someone saying "how is that my problem" IS bullying, not by force, but by power.

Sadaam Hussein got better treatment – remember the video of him getting checked out by a DOCTOR right after they arrested him?

Bleeding pregnant woman = hospital, all the time, everytime

Police do escort people to the ER who need medical attention, so regardless if she had a prior record or not, they could've just sucked it up and taken her to the ER to get checked out. This story makes me physically sick.

i think this was a gross abuse of power by the officers.

HOWEVER, just to raise a theoretical/ponderous question: wrongful death? this makes me highly uncomfortable in relation to abortion rights specifically with the questions raised by NAPW about mothers being charge with murder because of stillborns and the like. while i feel for the mother's loss...a wrongful death suit could push a lot of anti-choice buttons and not in a good way!

Kattyben: "And the fact is, blacks are statistically more likely than whites to be crack-addicted and to commit property crimes."

They are also statistically more likely to have unwanted pregnancies, higher fertility rates while lacking access to proper birth control methods.
So, according to your logic, the first thing these cops should have thought was: "Oh God, here's another black, socio-econmic by-product who is probably ALSO knocked up! Better get her to the hospital."

Katie -

So, a woman with a record does not deserve to be believed when she asks for help? If you'll recall, the woman in Tampa had an outstanding warrant (i.e. a record), which is what they arrested her over. Why is your "blood boiling" over how that woman was treated, but you have no sympathy for Sofia Salva?

What makes these cases so different to you? Is it that the woman in Tampa had suffered a violent crime, and thus was a "victim"? In both cases a woman with some kind of police record was denied necessary reproductive medical care because of her previous criminal history. Are you contending that only women with clean criminal records deserve help from the police?

Honestly, I'm confused as to how these two cases are different in your mind. Please explain it to me.

First, I think this is terrible.
But can she really sue for wrongful death? I think this ties back into the discussion on prosecuting drug addicted pregnant women for child endangerment. On that thread I related the story of a man who tried to strangle his pregnant wife, but during the subsequent custody dispute was not seen as a child abuser, because the child was not born.
So, as terrible as it is, can you really sue for the wrongful death of a fetus who is not yet born?
This really does seem to play into the hands of the anti-abortion groups. Complicated!

tankerton, your post beat mine! i said the exact same thing!

I think she can, tankerton, because the fetus was born alive and died a minute later, and because the refusal of medical care put her in danger as well. It goes back to the question of the woman's desire, which I think is central, and pro-forced-birthers think doesn't matter a whit!

EG, I like your response that a woman's right to choose should trump everything else. She should be able to choose (among other options) between nurturing a fetus, giving birth, or having an abortion. And the right of a woman to make this choice should be protected from abusive partners, negligent cops, politicians etc.

no 3 month old fetus has ever lived as far as i know. therefore suing for wrongful death will not happen. furthermore, with her child abuse record, i highly doubt she will get much done in the way of getting people to think its a wrongful death. i also think this plays into antiabortion foes. you can get an abortion at 3 months, its NOT late term abortion either so, there are some very muddy areas here.

a record of a juvenile offense that happened years ago and a woman with a record of not only child abuse but other things as an adult are two entirely different things. furthermore, its not that the police in tampa didnt BELIEVE she was raped. they absolutely did. its what they did after they found out about the juvenile offense and not allowing her BC bc of religions issues that is the problem.

Katie, I think you are one those people who approve of torture under special circumstances fro the "bad guys".

Katie, the point is whether or not the fetus would have been born at all if she had been given proper medical attention as soon as she had requested it. I don't know enough about her miscarriage to say, and I expect that that's what the case will hinge on.

Katie, why are you even here? Seriously, I've resisted responding to your ridiculous comments for months, but your views are absurd. Your ignorance knows no bounds, but I think that Michelle Malkin has a blog that you'd like.

This was being discussed all day long 2 days ago by the personalities Lazlo and Ephedra of 96.5 the Buzz FM in Kansas City. Hundreds of calls came in. I also spoke about this in a chat room I'm in every day here. I also made sure the story was on Digg and Reddit.

Everybody I know that's heard about this story is righteously ticked off. Like Lazlo said, "It's not this was 2 sheriff's deputies working in a podunk jailhouse in the middle of nowhere." Dozens if not over a hundred employees worked there in the building, and other prisoners were present as well. How can this go unnoticed to the proper authorities and the media for an entire year unless everybody was actively trying to cover it up?

After having to change her pants THREE TIMES for the blood, at what point do we think these officers would have said, "we shouldn't take a chance on her bleeding to death, let's get her to the hospital." ?

It gives the impression that if she had not had this big dramatic miscarriage in the cell that nobody could ignore, they would have let her bleed to death. That is what really makes this case a big deal. And that really makes me sick.

They were willing to let her bleed to death if it was nice and quiet and didn't get in their way. You can't downplay that, katie, and you are a miserable anti-feminist for doing so. What are you even doing here?

The strikes against her are obvious:
1) She's a woman.
2) She's having trouble with woman-stuff (it's not only men who cringe away from woman-stuff cooties).
3) All the other stuff (race, warrants, prior record) contributes, but is subordinate to her first two offenses.

Sooooo not related sojourner. I dont think she deserved this treatment and I have specifically stated that when they saw that indeed she was telling the truth, she should have been rushed to the hospital. I am just wondering about the whole "should police believe a criminal" sort of thing. or even being surprised that police might be skeptical of her claims at first?

as for torture, well i think its been proved that it doesnt work and is inhumane, but thanks for making assumptions on my view of torture based on what i think of someone who abuses and neglects children. I wonder if it was a man, in a similar circumstance, would everyone here be quite so forgiving? What if this was a convicted (multiple times) rapist who was complaining that his stomach hurt when the police pulled him over. they didnt believe him, so his apendix burst. i suppose you could say well, this is a pregnant woman with a baby, and its not the babies fault, and i would tend to agree, but i have a feeling this was going to end in miscarriage no matter what, although assumptions are not a good thing to make i know.

While i respect everyones positions, I personally dont think people are quite as consistent in their views.

and yes EG, you are probably right about what the case is going to hinge on.

shes not a feminist moxie, and this particular incident i dont think is feminist either. were you aware that not everyone who is a feminist agrees? i personally lean far more libertarian then people here, but i dont think stating something that is not how you feel is absurd, but if that is the immature way you deal with someone of a different view, well thats fine. I love this blog, but i find it pretty disconcerting for the feminist movement that anyone who does not agree on everything is automatically called a conservative racist. how ignorant can YOU be? I have been accused of taking the "male" side of things, yet that is not what is happening here. I am merely saying, there are 4 sides to every story, and clearly this is a bad incident, and no one should be treated that way HOWEVER the fact of who this woman is (and i wouldnt care if it was a man or a woman) and what she has done to her own, already born children, makes it feasible that they wouldnt be rushing her to the hospital. do i personally hold much respect for people who harm other people, esp children? no not really. not one bit. do i think they should be tortured? also no. but do i think they are LESS credible then the average person, um, yeah, thats why they have a serious criminal record.

what i should mention is that i personally think that this is all racially motivated and THATS what should be addressed here.

I saw the video, and I was just grossed out at the "how is that my problem?" comment. She female cop assured her that she knew what she was going through, stating "I'm a woman, too", but really...come on.

Also, where does it say that she has a history of child abuse? I don't think I saw it in either of the articles. (Or I could just be really dense, so, uh, spell it out for me like I'm a 4-year-old.) In the video they were talking to her about traffic violations and having expired stickers (I think, I didn't want to turn it up too loudly).

I just don't think it would have been so difficult for them to at least take her to the hospital. I don't think it's that difficult to get a police escort (or several) to the hospital, if they are that worried about her making a run for it.

Katie, my point about torture irrespective of whether or not it works is that human rights are universal you don’t lose your human rights if you are “bad� (people who support torture don’t think so). Access to medical care is part of a prisoner’s human rights. This woman’s human rights were violated. It shouldn’t matter that she was a child abuser or that she was the female Hitler or “a convicted (multiple times) rapist who was complaining that his stomach hurt�. It was not the Guard’s place to be skeptical of her claims and not act to help her.

clearly you do lose your human rights (some)if we put criminals in jail, but i understand what you are saying. i watched a video that had the commentator go down a laundry list of things that she had on her record. it was on CNN yesterday. of course THEY could be wrong as well . while i dont think you lose human rights as a criminal, i do think you lose credibility. i mean, do you really believe that you dont? and i am asking that respectfully, and not sarcastically just FYI.

Katie said:

a record of a juvenile offense that happened years ago and a woman with a record of not only child abuse but other things as an adult are two entirely different things.

Really? Because according to what I've read, the woman in Tampa's arrest related to something from four years before, in 2003.

Sofia Salva's child negligence charges (not abuse, there's a reason those are different charges) stemmed from an incident in 2002, four years before her arrest.

So, how are they different again?

Is it all about the child negligence? I take it you read the charges of child negligence and see some kind of child-abusing monster. I read those charges and see a woman who probably was between a rock and a hard place, and wound up making a hard choice that, 40 years ago, mothers made all the time and no one blinked twice at. I'm not saying I condone leaving three kids home alone, but I don't see a monster here. I see someone who made the wrong call and got busted for it.

But she got probation for that offense. So far as I can tell by the article, her children are still in her custody (I'm sure if they weren't, the police would have made sure to mention it, to help make sure we all understand she's a "bad woman"). So clearly, she's not as monstrous as you're trying to make her out to be.

So do you wanna try again, to find some justification for why one woman deserves your outrage and one woman doesn't?

child negligence as a NON juvenile and a juvenile larceny.? YOU dont see the difference btw possessions and humans? interesting. and i still dont think she "deserves" it, i think shes less credible because of it, and perhaps why she wouldnt be believed as readily. but clearly, you only see what you want to see bc you are on the attack now.

I am merely saying, there are 4 sides to every story, and clearly this is a bad incident, and no one should be treated that way HOWEVER the fact of who this woman is (and i wouldnt care if it was a man or a woman) and what she has done to her own, already born children, makes it feasible that they wouldnt be rushing her to the hospital.
So a potential baby should suffer b/c of its parent's crimes? "She has a criminal record so let her miscarriage!" You know, maybe we should sterilize people! Then all those undesirable colored, gay & poor people can just stop breeding & lousing things up!
Your position, Katie, reeks of privilige. I'm not surprised though, almost all the libertarians I know are incapable of thinking of anyone's problems but their own.

Katie -

You posted while I was commenting, saying that you saw a report about this on CNN.

I noticed in the article Jessica linked to, there is a more detailed description of those child negligence charges against Sofia Salva.

I also noticed that initially the charges are described as "child mistreatment" charges, and then later in the article they say the actual charge is child negligence and describe the incident that brought the charges about.

I think the problem is in the child negligence charges being categorized as "child mistreatment" charges, which then is easy for any good little TV journalist to reword as "child abuse" charges.

It's a handy way to demonize the crap out of a woman who had the nerve to be poor and have kids and make unwise choices in the care of her kids.

And, again, I'm not condoning her leaving her kids home alone. Don't misunderstand me, that's absolutely not what I'm saying.

But as a mom, I can see how something like that could happen really innocently. Especially if she's a single mother, especially if she's poor and has no other family support. Add even one little thing to that mix - the youngest one was teething and had been up all night, or the middle one was sick, or perhaps even she herself was coping with post-partum depression, and making the wrong choice becames really easy to do.

And I'll grant you - maybe this woman is a terrible, horrible mother. Maybe she didn't leave her kids home alone to run to the store to buy them milk and whole wheat bread, but instead to go hook up with a boyfriend. I don't know. You don't either. And we can both bet the police didn't know.

Sofia Salva's criminal record should in no way have prevented the police from believing her when she claimed to need medical help. Not later on, when her bleeding was obvious to the casual observer, but right away, the first time she asked. She would have remained in their custody, but she would have gotten the treatment she needed.

Pisaquari -- I have no idea what you're talking about and would certainly not endorse your interpretation. Please read my post again.

Katie -- I am far from denying any of the horrifying instance of abuse of police power that you are citing. I repeat: it's talking about "cops" like they are all the same that is the problem. You continue to do that.

Even if this woman had a history of horrible, heinous crimes, that doesn't excuse inaction on the part of the police, or the casual disregard shown towards her. That they had a pregnant woman telling them that she was bleeding out and needed to get to a hospital should have been enough to get her taken to a hospital immediately. If she's lying, then deal with it then. As it turns out, she wasn't lying, and she lost the pregnancy.
It doesn't matter whether she's a good person, a bad person, or a the devil himself. Part of the police's job is to protect people. "To Serve and Protect."
They absolutely failed.

And it also shouldn't matter that a 3-month old fetus isn't yet viable. The question is whether treatment could have prevented the loss of the fetus. If the inaction of the police caused the death of the fetus, that's a big problem.

I'm not interested in whether this "plays into antiabortion" group's claims. What happened to this woman is awful, and if the police officer's actions (or, inaction) led to her losing her pregnancy, she absolutely should sue. She had made a choice to carry the child, and nobody should have been allowed to deny her that choice, anymore than someone should be denied the choice to end one. That doesn't seem muddy to me, at all.

Well, this thread took a direction I wasn't expecting.

Ok, let's say the police stuck her in their car and drove her to the hospital, because really, someone who's bleeding heavily probably shouldn't be driving anyway. She could have passed out from blood loss. So they get her to the hospital, and she was lying. Then what happens? They arrest her and add "lying to police" as a charge.

I really don't care if she had a history of child murder, or had been convicted of fraud multiple times. I don't care if some guy in this situation is a rapist. They give the person medical attention, and then, if the person was lying, there can be a consequence for that too.

What if, say, someone is wrongfully convicted? We know it happens. Is that person going to be treated like they are undeserving of prompt medical attention forever because of a wrongful conviction?

"Even if this woman had a history of horrible, heinous crimes, that doesn't excuse inaction on the part of the police, or the casual disregard shown towards her. That they had a pregnant woman telling them that she was bleeding out and needed to get to a hospital should have been enough to get her taken to a hospital immediately."

Or even more accurately, that they had a person telling them that she was bleeding out and needed to get to a hospital should have been enough! Bleeding out isn't good for you, whether your pregnant or not, whether you're female or male or whatever, and so on.

Quite simple Kattyben--you asserted to a possible prejudice the cops had because of the woman's race (I agree) and supported it with statistics--which I, in turn, responded by saying if statistics are an origin for prejudice then the cops could have assumed she was pregnant as well.

We have entered the Fifth Circle of Hell.

A pregnant, bleeding woman trying to drive herself to the hospital was stopped by the police and arrested because of decal in her window.

No, Pisquari, I did not "support" the cops' possible prejudice with statistics.

The point of the statistics was to demonstrate that even when stereotypes -- of cops, or African-Americans, or anyone -- arguably have some basis in fact, PREJUDICE directed at members of that group *generally* is still not acceptable.

I am not -- and I'm surprised this isn't apparent, because I've been at pains to emphasize it -- condoning or trying to explain away anyone's bad behavior. Quite the opposite. I'm suggesting that outrage rightly directed at the (probably) racist behavior of two particular cops isn't best addressed by adopting in attitude which is in certain ways quite similar to racism, towards cops.

If racial prejudice had gotten the woman medical attention, well, that would have been a silver lining to a very ugly cloud.

First of all, Kansas is fucked enough so don't add this crap to them. This incident took place in KC Missouri. I live just about 7 blocks from where this incident happened. The neighborhood she and I live in, Northeast, is an extremely diverse neighborhood. We have immigrants from all over the world, always have. Our newest influx of immigrants are from Somilia, Sudan, Ethiopia, the Middle East, former Soviet countries and every country in Central & South American Reagan fucked with in the 80's. Needless to say, the white urban pioneers dislike them tremendously. For example, at our neighborhood crime meeting in December 2006, some of the board members told the Captain of the police they wanted the police to stop every person,"that doesn't look like they belong here". So it appears the cops were "just doing their job". They have citizens requesting this behavior.

Also, regarding her "criminal" behavior, she only had outstanding warrants, she has not been tried, nor convicted, (not that this matters she is a PERSON). Our neighborhood has seen the immigrants have child services called on them because of cultural differences in raising children, so I am suspect of the child abuse/neglect charges. All charges were misdemeanors, none with violent acts, so I don't understand why they didn't just take here to the ER.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought some background would help. These cops were not being racsits against "blacks" they were being racists against a Somali.

And she was 4 months pregnant, not 3.

thanks for clarifying the KS vs. MO thing, and the Somali thing for others, Kattyben. As a dual-resident of KCMO and Lawrence, KS- I was immediately irritated by the confusion of the two states. Everything else I think about this situation has been addressed by someone else. Well, let's just say I'm not a libertarian. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how one can be a libertarian and a feminist.

I meant you, Michelle the Red. Thank you for clarifying.

Also as for her "criminal behavior," I watched the police video and saw no indication they knew who she was when they first pulled her over, so as even to be aware of her record. Nearly the first words out of her mouth were that she was pregnant, bleeding, and was trying to go to the hospital.

Besides that, even if they were aware, they should have taken her to the hospital immediately anyway. She posed no danger to public safety that they even needed to call for back-up, which they could have done and had the back-up meet them at the hospital and stand guard. Even if they were afraid she might escape, what, it's a worse thing for a woman who was driving with a fake temp tag to "escape justice," than for a woman in need of medical treatment not to receive it?

I'm not going to make excuses for anybody here but:

1) She should have immediately received medical attention. Uncontrollable vaginal bleeding + pregnant woman = a number of potentially life-threatening conditions.

2) The highly publicized bad behavior of a few cops (the Florida rape case, this case, the strip-club shootings in NY, Amadou Dialo, etc) is not representative of most cops. As someone so astutely pointed out, there are assholes on power trips in every profession.

Yes, but a cop on a powertrip has a lot more power to mess up lives in his/her day to day duties than a guy working behind the counter at a retail establishment does.