Well, also, isn't it well-documented that pregnancy and childbirth can lead to sever depression? I don't see anyone arguing for mass programs to "educate" the populace about that, much less outlawing pregnancy and childbirth. Heart surgery also seems to cause higher rates of depression.

But let's look at our old friend "correlation is not causation" just one more time, as well. Doesn't it make sense that women who are prone to depression and the accompanying sense of being overwhelmed might be more likely to terminate a pregnancy than women who aren't? I'm just saying, that back when I was mired in severe depression, the very last thing I should have been doing was bearing a child (and I didn't).

Oooh! Bullet points!
They're practically begging for someone to fisk the hell out of them. Preferably with a heavy dose of sarcasm.
Oh, if only I had more time!

Aw, what the hell--I can't resist...
Legalized abortion has created a "dramatic rise in the incidence of child abuse and a dramatic weakening of family ties,"
Uh, yeah...because people who have abortions frequently beat the crap out of the children they didn't have. Duh!

"[W]omen who have had an abortion require psychological treatment of such symptoms as nervous disorders, sleep disturbances, and deep regrets,"
Which definitely has nothing whatsoever to do with those people hanging around outside abortion clinics screaming threats and obscenities at them. Honest.

"Abortion results in increased tobacco smoking,"
Um...okay. Let me guess: Women smokers who have abortions continue to smoke rather than quitting (for 9 months at least) for the sake of the baby. Therefore, abortion = more smoking?
Are we really this desperate for arguments, people?

"Abortion is linked to alcohol and drug abuse,"
It's true! A lot of aborted pregnancies are concieved as the result of drunken hookups. This is a tragedy! Everyone knows drunks and addicts make the best mothers.

"Most couples find abortion to be an event which shatters their relationship,"
Obviously most women who seek abortions are involved in loving, stable relationships--and what woman wants to bring a child into that kind of environment?!?

"Abortion exploits women, treating them and their children as mere property,"
We all know how much the Fundies are opposed to this.

"Abortion is contrary to feminist values, and the great suffragette Susan B. Anthony referred to abortion as 'child murder',"
A woman who lived before feminism existed as a movement, but who could arguably be called a feminist, opposed abortion. This is significant because all feminists agree on every feminist issue, and in fact all share the same feminist hive-mind.

Abortion has caused the state "an inestimable amount economically" including "the costs and tax burden of having to care for individuals and their families for the conditions cited above" and "a significant reduction of the tax base and of the availability of workers."
If, on the other hand, every aborted fetus was instead brought to term, there would be absolutely no drain on the economy whatsoever. In fact, it'd improve, because we'd have lots of desperately poor people willing to work for slave wages, and could finally stop hiring those filthy illegal immigrants to clean up after us.

Ah...that was refreshing!
Note: In case it wasn't obvious, my statements above should be taken with a small mountain of salt. And maybe a shot of tequila. Cheers!

I’d really like to se the “research� behind all these claims. Because it surely sounds like they’ve pulled it out of their asses. I mean I am sure that forced pregnancy cures depression! “Abortion has caused the state "an inestimable amount economically". What about the economical consequences of forced pregnancies? Think about the overburdening of welfare, juvenile corrections, foster care systems. What about the women who are going to have to drop out of school or leave their jobs to raise their children?
As for "Abortion exploits women, treating them and their children as mere property,"
and "Abortion is contrary to feminist values� I am truly baffled. I really don’t know how one can begin to address that.

Well, don't worry. If Roe is repealed, our friends in inconvenient reproductive federalism and the free market will see the ladies in Georgia through. After all, they can always go to... Alabama? Outlook not so good. Florida? Sheesh. The Carolinas? Unlikely. Tenne-tucky? Chances are slim. Mississippi? That's no good. Texas and Louisiana are RIGHT OUT. Virginia? Just maybe. Well, Air Canada can always run a few specials.

Because someone had to do it. Let's take this point by point.

Legalized abortion has created a "dramatic rise in the incidence of child abuse and a dramatic weakening of family ties,"
I'd love to see where the statistics for this statement came from. Because forcing a young woman to raise a child in poverty is a surefire way to cut back child abuse. Of course not all woman who have abortions are single and/or poor, but I digress. Intuitively, I don't see how allowing a woman to terminate a pregnancy when she is unwilling or unable to raise a child would cause an increase in child abuse. It seems the exact opposite should be true.

"[W]omen who have had an abortion require psychological treatment of such symptoms as nervous disorders, sleep disturbances, and deep regrets,"
This is just plain not true. The majority of women do not suffer from any kind of 'post-abortion syndrome'. Research has proven this again and again. While some woman do suffer from depression following an abortion, this may be due to the societal view that abortion is 'murdering your child'. A scared young woman who already has enough problems with an unplanned pregnancy does not need any added guilt thrown at them by hate spewing protesters.

"Abortion results in increased tobacco smoking,"
Huh? Perhaps the logic they're reaching for is that increased anxiety causes smokers to smoke more? Having an abortion did not cause me to take up smoking, nor do I believe that it would cause any non-smoker to suddenly start smoking.

"Abortion is linked to alcohol and drug abuse,"
A better way to say this is that alcohol and drug use is linked to unplanned pregnancies. So instead of teaching moderation and responsible partying, not to mention daterape and a good sex education, we'll just eliminate abortion as an option.

"Most couples find abortion to be an event which shatters their relationship,"
Again, huh? I'd like to see some statistics on this. Are there many instances when one person really wanted to have the child but the other didn't? I don't think that this is a very common scenario. I wouldn't say that the abortion 'shattered' the replationship, more likely the relationship was already strained and the unplanned pregnancy was the catalyst for the break up. Again, throw in societal pressures of sex, purity, and abortion into an already rocky relationship and you've got yourself a recipe for a break up. At one point in time, a friend of mine was told by her (now ex)boyfriend 'you killed our baby' during an argument, as if they hadn't mutually decided it was the best decision.

"Abortion exploits women, treating them and their children as mere property,"
Not allowing woman to make an informed choice about their own body is treating them like property. It is saying that women are unable to decide for themselves what is best for them and the state needs to save them from themselves.

"Abortion is contrary to feminist values, and the great suffragette Susan B. Anthony referred to abortion as 'child murder',"
I must confess that I don't know many Susan B. Anthony quotes (bad feminist!), but I do not believe that allowing abortion as an option is against feminist values. Feminists do not force all pregant women to have an abortion. Feminists understans that abortion is not the right choice for every woman when faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Feminists values allow woman to pick the best option for her particular situation.

Abortion has caused the state "an inestimable amount economically" including "the costs and tax burden of having to care for individuals and their families for the conditions cited above" and "a significant reduction of the tax base and of the availability of workers."
This is just a silly statement. How much money would the state have had to pay for healthcare and education of these children? How many of these children would have been born into poverty and the mother forced onto welfare, most likely having to put school or career on hold to raise the child? How much money would be spent then? Would the poverty cycle be repeated with this next generation? Or how many of the children would have grown up and simply moved out of state? There are just too many assumptions being made in this statement.

i read this bill the first time it was mentioned on here and i was shocked at how ridiculous it truly is. as i try to be politically savvy, i've read my share of legislation...especially anti-choice legislation, but this is just so stupid.

i lived in the south until i was 18 and i try to squash the idea that southerners are stupid, but this bill...not just the content, but the writing...doesn't lend much credbiliy to the argument that there are a lot of intelligent people there.

it's embarassing. and scary. bah....

this might drive me to head over to the Roe anniversary happy hour a little early.

My understanding is that Anthony was against abortion because, at the time, it was deadly. Her objection was that making women suffer such shame that they would go through a very dangerous procedure, while letting the men who got them in such a position get off scot-free, is bad for women.

And it is. But, ya know, I think she might have a different opinion in a world where abortion is safer than childbirth and *most* people do not abort out of social stigma toward unwed mothers.

Susan B. Anthony's opinion is valuable and relevant historically, but she didn't live in our time and had different problems to face, therefore her opinion is not as relevant to women of today as, say, Gloria Steinem's is. Her *reasons* for opposing abortion were good feminist reasons considering the issues of her day.

Norbizness, it's worse than you think. The majority of Americans want the abortion issue to be resolved federally rather than on the state level. That, the decreasing support for Roe (it's down to 49-47), and the Democratic Party's decreasing support for abortion suggest a federal ban in the future rather than a statewide ban.

"The states are not free, under the guise of protecting maternal health or potential life, to intimidate women into continuing pregnancies." -Justice Harry A. Blackmun, Roe v. Wade, 22 January 1973

Thats the only quote I need for today.

Ok, I'm having a hellacious time trying to get in touch with my representative (Georgia peach here) to give him a piece of my mind--as it turns out, only half of them have email addresses listed on the site, and my rep. isn't one of them. But thanks so much for bringing this to my attention--I live about 30 minutes from the capital building, so I can just take my concerns to them directly. :D I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

I love how these same people who are anti-choice are usually also anti-sex education. If they do not want girls getting pregnant,then they need to teach them about birth control. I just read that North Dakota is considering an abortion ban, too. Lovely.

Lovely choice of quote Taisa-Marie.

As much as it saddens me to see more falsehoods touted by pro-life, it certainly doesn't surprise me. The fact that it's not surprising anymore is the saddest thing of all.

Abortion will also:

Give you blue pokadots on your face every third Thursday.

Make your hair fall out.

Give you a 50% chance of getting a level 4 infectious disease as soon as you leave the clinic.

Make you blind in one eye.

I respect the opinion of people who honestly believe that abortion is murder, and as a result think it should be outlawed. I'm not talking about as a means to control reproduction or keeping women in their place, but to outlaw something you believe to be the taking of a human life. Shouldn't that be their argument? I hate that they have to make stuff up like "abortion makes you smoke". Even if it were true, how fucked up would it be if we were to say "It didn't bother me when abortion was just murder, but that new study saying abortion causes you to smoke really has me convinced." That is what scares me about their logic.

"I love how these same people who are anti-choice are usually also anti-sex education." - Kate

I am so with you on this. They are also against condoms and the pill. If there weren't unwanted pregnancies, there wouldn't be abortion. They should be teaching sex education to prevent the pregnancies (including, but not limited to, abstinence).

More bad legislation. Here in North Dakota, I had hoped we'd learned the lesson from our neighbor South Dakota that people don't want legislators messing with this issue. Alas, I was wrong.

Today, hearings were held in the ND Legislature on 4 of the 5 introduced abortion bills. Yes, they were scheduled for today, the day of Roe v. Wade decision. The irony escapes me.

The worst of the 4 is a non-trigger bill (HB 1489) which makes abortion illegal, period. No exceptions. Criminalization for doctors and the woman. See http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/60-2007/bill-text/HBBD0300.pdf In hearings today, the pushers of the legislation stated it was specifically designed to challenge Roe v. Wade and address the issues identified in Roe v. Wade which "caused" the decision.

Another bill is a trigger bill that has an exception for life of the mother but no others. This is very similar to South Dakota's bill only that SD did not have the trigger. See http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/60-2007/bill-text/HBJJ0100.pdf

The other 2 bills are HB 1466 (deals with materials and videos required to be provided when a woman seeks an abortion) and HB 1494 which limits genetic testing and resulting abortions. 1466: http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/60-2007/bill-text/HBEU0100.pdf 1494: http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/60-2007/bill-text/HBJI0100.pdf

Oh, and it was a lot of fun to see man after man get up and tell us how abortion should be illegal. Also fun to hear one of the male bill sponsors state that women seeking abortions are so easily influenced by others that that's why the decision of an abortion needs to be taken away.

Such a fun day (sarcasm dripping off my every word).

There's another way of looking at this--with the ascendancy of Roberts and Alito to the Court, a well-reasoned, relatively legally tight abortion ban might get through. The right wing groups have been begging for a test of Roe and of Casey.

I would rather have it be this Georgia Law than I would have it be the type of abortion ban that would pass in a more moderate place. A failed test case would probably uphold Roe until Souter dies or retires.

[i] * Legalized abortion has created a "dramatic rise in the incidence of child abuse and a dramatic weakening of family ties,"[/i]

These people are forgetting that people who want abortions but are forced to give birth to it are probably more likely to abuse those children. That would only make child abuse rise more. If anything, abortion is preventing child abuse.

[i] * "[W]omen who have had an abortion require psychological treatment of such symptoms as nervous disorders, sleep disturbances, and deep regrets,"[/i]

Obviously, I can only speak for myself. But when I had an abortion, I don't think I'd been so relieved in my life. And I know I'll never regret that decision. And I had sleep disturbances since I was a child. I take melatonin.

[i] * "Abortion results in increased tobacco smoking,"[i/]

I believe a previous poster said the same thing I was thinking.

[i]* "Abortion is linked to alcohol and drug abuse,"[i/]

Nevermind that some of the women who get abortions are probably doing this stuff beforehand. And are probably more likely to have abortions.

[i] * "Most couples find abortion to be an event which shatters their relationship,"[i/]

Didn't shatter mine. For me, giving birth to the thing may have, though. As well as other areas of my life. But yeah, some women who get abortions probably aren't in very good relationships.

[i] * "Abortion exploits women, treating them and their children as mere property,"[/i]

And forcing them to bear children they don't want, as well as placing the fetus in higher importance than her doesn't?

[i] * "Abortion is contrary to feminist values, and the great suffragette Susan B. Anthony referred to abortion as 'child murder',"[i/]

Not all feminists agree on everything, like another poster said. But I don't care if I'm killing a living thing. My life and well being is more important.

[i] * Abortion has caused the state "an inestimable amount economically" including "the costs and tax burden of having to care for individuals and their families for the conditions cited above" and "a significant reduction of the tax base and of the availability of workers." [i/]

This pisses me off the most. Even more than the abuse statement. So... I'm supposed to pop out kids I don't want just to make rich white males and their families/heirs even richer? I'm supposed tp pop out kids I don't want because I owe something to society and the economy? Yeah, whatever. I don't owe society shit, and I'm not a fucking brood mare for the benefit of the rich. The more people keep popping out kids, the more harm is done. Not only economically, but ecologically. Yet people seem to refuse to see this.

"While some woman do suffer from depression following an abortion, this may be due to the societal view that abortion is 'murdering your child'."

I completely agree with you, VTIdealist. I would like to see research on rates of depression in countries where abortion is "legal and less stigmatized" (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html). My experience suggests that depression rates should be much, much lower. It wasn't until I started learning about American feminism that I realized abortion was such a loaded issue. And I'm from a predominantly Muslim country!

Legalized abortion has created a "dramatic rise in the incidence of child abuse and a dramatic weakening of family ties,"

Instance of child abuse? I'd like to see you prove it, Georgia. Like Vervain said, of COURSE they're abusing the children the DON'T have.

"[W]omen who have had an abortion require psychological treatment of such symptoms as nervous disorders, sleep disturbances, and deep regrets,"

That's true. There are also women who don't have regrets. Don't you dare try to take some and make it into the whole.

"Abortion results in increased tobacco smoking,"

Wha...? Once again, PROVE IT.

"Abortion is linked to alcohol and drug abuse,"

Yea, and so are wealthy CEO buisness men.

"Most couples find abortion to be an event which shatters their relationship,"

Who are you to say what breaks another persons relationship?

"Abortion exploits women, treating them and their children as mere property,"

Mere property? And what does arguing over us, acting as if we can't make our own decisions, make us?

"Abortion is contrary to feminist values, and the great suffragette Susan B. Anthony referred to abortion as 'child murder',"

Susan is my homegirl. But you don't have to have the exact same views as her to be a feminist. Feminists are for female rights. In my not-so-humble opinion, female rights would mean making our own decisions.

Almost all these things were generlizations and oversimplifications. Oh joy.

Love,
knightess

I wrote something about this a month or so ago at Shake's Sis's site. I left Georgia six months ago because my home state is becoming home to more and more fundamentalists (I guess we can blame the South Carolina Exodus for this? Mayhap they are bleeding into Georgia?). I cannot live in a state that will not allow voters to overturn something they personally do not agree with. Yet it tears my heart out to see this happening in the place where I was born.

These state ban efforts are taking on the fever and sophistication of revival meetings.

Thanks to everyone who posted serious point-by-point arguments on this one. I just didn't have it in me.
Hyperbolic sarcasm is my defense mechanism.
I hope my post gave everyone a laugh.

Sometimes you've got to laugh just so you won't cry.

From a legal standpoint

Abortion bans need to, at the most, survive strict scrutiny: the ban must be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling state interest. Obviously, Roe holds that states don't have an interest in embroynic life, for its own sake, so Georgia is trying to assemble evidence that abortion is bad and that banning it is a compelling state interest.

I'm not talking about as a means to control reproduction or keeping women in their place, but to outlaw something you believe to be the taking of a human life. Shouldn't that be their argument?
Yeah. The pro-life movement is split among the "abortion is murder" groups and the smaller, albeit more vocal, "anti-sex" groups. The former group is pro-gay adoption (more potential adoptive parents = fewer abortions), pro contraception ( = fewer abortions), pro Catholic Charities/funding for pregnant women ( = fewer women who can't afford the costs of prenatal care & delivery), pro-child support ( = fewer women who can't afford to have a kid), and they are often the people who want stricter penalties for rape.

There's not much you can do about the anti-sex group except the usual, "Just say no to sex with pro-lifers." ;)

oenophile-

but the more stupid shit that they throw into the language of the particular law, the harder it is going to be for that law to stand up to strict scrutiny. Building a case by just throwing a bunch of easily disprovable assertions into the mix is not a way to make a convincing legal argument.

I still say that it's a lot safer having something like this be the test case that the Roberts court sees than something like the South Dakota law. A challenge is going to be inevitable, and I would rather have it be as wingnutty and stupid as possible.

Not really. All of Georgia's reasons need not stand up to strict scrutiny for the law to be upheld; in fact, if only one of their justifications is deemed a compelling state interest, the Court will not overturn it.

Furthermore, there is often great deference to legislative fact-finding. Appeals courts rarely make findings of fact, and district courts are ill-equipped to overturn longstanding precedent.

What Georgia is doing makes a lot of sense, actually. Furthermore, I think the conservatives are betting that Justice Stevens won't last another two years, so his seat will be filled with a conservative by the time the case comes up to the S. Ct. Of course, that leaves someone (Roberts, maybe?) as the new "swing vote," if there is such a thing.

Sorry this is way off topic, but Alanna Knightess!?!?!

I got bit by the Tamora bug a few years ago and I'm jealous I didn't think of that name first... Maybe I can be Aly The Spymaster?!

It is precisely this sort of bill that (understandbly) prompts some of the commentors to claim the idiocy of all Georgians. I, however, am a Georgian in the minority...a real live liberal! Right here in the south! I am, in fact, a native Georgian!

So, while no candidate I have ever voted for in Georgia has ever won in Georgia, and it is often frustrating being a small voice of reason in a state which screams ignorance and fear, I think someone has to.

ohhh man. i live in georgia. i am so embarrassed.
because of where i live, i have to deal with hearing these kind of things every time i voice my opinion. a few weeks ago i wore a t-shirt to school that said "every woman deserves a choice". and a guy stopped me and started whining about how every "baby" deserves a life. actually, the day i wore that shirt i got a lot of support from girls. the only people who gave me any shit were guys .:sigh:.

Thanks for pointing out the wildly inaccurate assertions in this bill. And I'm dismayed to hear that the voters won't get a crack at this one, if it passes. I only briefly made a reference to this in my RH Reality Check post on the recent threats to Roe -- so I appreciate your more in-depth look.

www.rhrealitycheck.org/node/2115

Cheers,
Tyler

Thanks for pointing out the wildly inaccurate assertions in this bill. And I'm dismayed to hear that the voters won't get a crack at this one, if it passes. I only briefly made a reference to this in my RH Reality Check post on the recent threats to Roe -- so I appreciate your more in-depth look.

www.rhrealitycheck.org/node/2115

Cheers,
Tyler

Megan, you said that only guys gave you shit, and it also seems to me that most pro-lifers are men. Which begs the question...

Why the fuck do they care? They never have to worry about getting pregnant. So why would they want to strip us of our right for any reason other than to control us? And I don't care if some people honestly believe abortion to be murder. There are people who believe eating meat to be murder. Does that mean eating meat should be outlawed, at the expense of those who choose to eat it? Hell no! Pro-lifers can suck my ass. How dare they try to force their beliefs down my throat and try to force me to have kids I don't want.

How long do you folks think it'll be until there's a federal ban on abortion? If I'm lucky, maybe I'll have enough time to get a tubal ligation... If I can jump through all those hoops fast enough.

Speaking of which... Have any of you ladies had any experience getting a tubal ligation on severely limited funds/medicaid and/or being in your early 20's? I'd appreciate any help.

Tokaia - I had the Essure procedure when I was 25. Very easy outpatient procedure, although I don't know if medicaid covers it. Much faster and less risky than a tubal though.

Check it out: www.essure.com

C-Bird: Hehe. Thank you. /off topic

# Having a baby has created a "dramatic rise in the incidence of child abuse and a dramatic weakening of family ties,"

# "[W]omen who have had a baby require psychological treatment of such symptoms as nervous disorders, sleep disturbances, and deep regrets,"

# "Having a baby results in increased tobacco smoking,"

# "Having a baby is linked to alcohol and drug abuse,"

# "Most couples find having a baby to be an event which shatters their relationship,"

# "Babies exploit women, treating them as mere property,"

# "Having a baby is contrary to feminist values" (I'm sure someone could find a quote from a modernday feminist?)

# Babies have caused the state "an inestimable amount economically" including "the costs and tax burden of having to care for individuals and their families for the conditions cited above" and "a significant reduction of the tax base and of the availability of workers."