This is so interesting to me. My mother, aunt, grandmother, and sister were having this same conversation this weekend. My sister had said that she wanted a red sash on her wedding dress. She is 20 and living with her boyfriend, and my mother said, "But what would people THINK?" To which, I responded, "That she likes the color red."

My aunt, grandmother, and mother were all shocked and horrified, and my sister and I were shocked and horrified that our pretty progressive female relatives were so concerned by this.

And how is it MORALLY wrong to wear a white wedding dress to a wedding when the bride isn't a virgin. That is a social thing, if I'm not mistaken.

I SO read that last week and was so annoyed. what decade does this guy live in? is he aware of the premarital sex statistics?

Is he aware that it's none of his damn business anyway? Why does he care what the status of his wife's niece's hymen?

Here's an idea Perplexed: Be happy for your wife's niece on her wedding day and quite worrying so damned much about what she's doing in the bedroom with her groom-to-be, because it's not your business.

I am so happy for this uncle since it appears that he, in fact, has no real problems in his life and can amuse himself with meaningless bullshit like his niece's sexual conduct.

Frankly, to be tolerable, a wedding requires either good company or scotch. Guess I would be drinking scotch if I had to sit next to Uncle Pervert.

methinks that perhaps pervy uncle is a bit jealous that his wifes neice is getting laid at all, since if i was that guys wife, i certainly wouldnt be sleeping with such a pervy douchebag

If by "scare away" you mean "attract in droves", you're correct.

What does Perplexed in Denver think of cultures where red is the traditional wedding colour and where white is the traditional funeral colour? White wasn't exactly "designated by God" as the default wedding colour for virgins.

And yes, he should definitely stay home. No farce-wedding cake for him.

Shit like this is the reaswon that I will never get married. Unless piles of money are involved, of course.

The Creepy Uncle thing is a stereotype for a reason.

Where did this "white wedding dress" = virgin thing come from anyway?

All I know is that it's very pervasive. In my own religious tradition it's traditionally the men (although often the women as well) who wear white (the men wear a robe called in Yiddish a kittel, I have no idea what non-Ashkenazim call it -- my dad, marrying in a more liberal shul in the 1970s wore a white tux) -- and wearing white has nothing to do with virginity but rather symbolizes starting a new life upon marriage.

And yet I've even heard from Jewish people (evidently ignorant of their own traditions) snippy remarks of "why's she wearing white if she's not a virgin", when presumably a woman would wear white for the same reason a man would ... to symbolize the start of a new life.

Personally, I don't get off fantisizing about other people's sex lives. Of course the virginity-until-marriage crowd often says the same -- yet for people not wanting other peoples sex lives "shoved down their throughts", they seem awful interested in what other people are doing ...

Actually, the kinds of people who complain, e.g., about non-virgin brides wearing white, or in general even care about other people's sex lives (and then complain when they have them outside of quiverfull-approved-type sex acts), remind me of the kind of woman described in this comment

I believe the white wedding dress was introduced as a purity symbol when Victoria and Albert married. Victoria, for her entire reign, was a public symbol of "moral decency", thus it was assumed that she was a virgin in a pure white gown. Now we have a stupid English tradition on our hands that has the added bonus of allowing repressed people to have sad fantasies about the couple getting married.

Andrea's exactly right. Used to, women didn't wear white unless it flattered them. People also used to wear their wedding dresses over again, which is a taboo now, too.

Being Southern, I know a lot about etiquette. A lot of mothers won't let their daughters wear white if they aren't virgins. I think it's damn stupid, but then again, if I ever get married, I'll probably wear burgundy, so there you go.

Stupid Victoria.

I wore red on my wedding day. Personally, I associate red with passion and love, and it's my favorite color. I think white wedding dresses are boring and not memorable.

I've heard that in Australia, the white dress represents happiness, not virginity.

She only spent $400 on a wedding dress. High five.

Well, you could have honesty, or you could have tradition. I think many brides wear white because that is the tradition. At least so it seems among the Christian faith. I haven't gotten to attend a hand fastening because it's just so hard to find other Pagans. that, and it's so hard to find people to do non-christian weddings for those of us who aren't. I wonder what Atheists do, sometimes.
My husband and I didn't have a wedding because I didn't want one. We had a brief ceremony where we repeated the least Christian sounding vows at some place a friend of mine "witnessed" and took pictures for us. I was... about 3 or 4 months pregnant. And I wore a red dress that had nice embroidery on it. I don't like the colour white, at all. My clothing is predominately black, for my "wedding day" I chose to wear something other than black, and wore my favourite dress.
However, I'm not a Christian so I don't see myself as being bound to those traditions because they are not my own. Was I wrong for wearing a dress I really liked and wanted to get married in even though it wasn't white? I don't think so. But my mom had a fit when she saw the pictures.
It seems that people don't like it when you break their traditions. So maybe that's why this buffoon it was immoral this girl wears red. But I don't get how you can violate the "sacred vows of marriage" when you're not even married yet.
I think some people really need to open their eyes and realise that the world has changed. Rules and such made in a time when people didn't bathe everyday shouldn't always apply. But that's just my opinion. I see most religions as an excuse for people to kill one another. "My God says you are wrong for worshiping your God and I am to kill you if you don't convert." But that's a totally different topic.

"I wonder what Atheists do, sometimes."

My mom and stepfather got a lefty-liberal Justice of the Peace to perform a lovely ceremony in the courtyard of a restaurant. I think that's mostly what we do (the Justice of the Peace, I mean, not the courtyard of a French restaurant, nice as it was!). It's all about the civil ceremony and community celebration, which is nice, and which I don't understand religious objections to gay marriage at all. Religion had nothing at all to do with my parents' wedding, so what does religion have to do with civil marriage? I mean, if religion is the be-all and end-all of marriage, why would we even have civil ceremonies? (end of digression)

And, oh yeah, my mother wore a white suit, even though her two children were standing up with her and my stepdad--somehow, the world did not collapse. At her first wedding, which led to a marriage that lasted 20 years, she wore a black minidress, after living with my dad for years. So bite me, ridiculous creepy Uncle in Denver.

EG, I couldn't agree more. In an effort to get them to cede at least some ground, I often point out to fellow Christians (who have more conservative views than I do) that what the state says about marriage has nothing to do with what the church says. Since church and state are legally separate, churches can still discriminate against anyone they want (as they regularly do -- you won't find many Catholic priests who will marry a Wiccan couple, for instance). Has nothing to do with the civil aspect of marriage, so there's no reason to oppose it. It's no threat to the church if gays are allowed to legally marry.

I'm planning to attend a gay wedding this June (my first ever, and I'm very excited). They aren't planning to be married in a church -- the ceremony will be held in a hotel or a convention center (I can't quite recall which). Neither of them is particularly religious, which is sadly fortuitous for them.

As to what the bride wears, the bride can and should wear whatever she damn well pleases. As for me personally, if I ever get married, I plan to combine traditional and non-traditional aspects of weddings. I'm a sucker for tradition, and I will accept this about myself and allow myself to enjoy being traditional... even if I don't agree with the principles behind the tradition.

Of course, I don't plan to follow all of them -- no promise to "obey" from me. no bs about the head of the household, no giving me away -- and no "bridesmaids." We'll have "attendants." However, I do plan to wear white because that's simply what I think of when I think "wedding dress," and I personally like them. I might just go with extra-shiny white as a big "fuck you" to anyone who thinks I'm less worthy just because I'm not a virgin.

My childhood priest used to say that if he were a woman getting married he would want to wear red.
Just thought I'd share with the class.

Ah yes, the Justice of peace. How silly of me to have forgotten that! We were so close to doing that instead!
I had one of those moments of insanity that comes from chasing a toddler around. Thank you EG, for the correction.

Toddlers can do that to a person! They are loveable but deadly little people.

I would love to see a Wiccan handfasting, myself. I've been told it's a very lovely, moving, and egalitarian ceremony.

I practice solitary, easier for me for a lot of reasons. But in some of my books they have the rituals done and of course, I can't help but imagine. Most of my Wiccan friends are already married or did something similar to what I did.
Maybe one day I will. Or I'll get to have my own, he wants to renew the vows.
My hubby is going on an Asatru (Norse Paganism) kick. All of a sudden our son's name Tyr, (the Norse God of Victory among other things) has lit a fire under his ass to find a religion. So I imagine there would be aspects of that, if we were to ever have a ceremony.
But oh, what would my right wing nut conservative father and grand parents think!!

I'm mostly impressed that the dress is so inexpensive, relatively speaking (in relation to the ridonkulous amounts usually spent on weddings these days). My dress was purple and black, designed by me and sewn by my mum. And there was curtain lace involved! Gosh, what kind of message was I sending, Uncle Creepster?

I'm not a dress-up (or even dress) person, but I thought it would be nice to be frou-frou for the day. It's not the be-all and end-all.

I love how Amy points out the question of sexual morality with the groom. Its like the guy is saying because she isn't a virgin her wedding isnt a real wedding.

Other than that, I think the bride should be able to wear whatever she wants, its her wedding. An all white dress is so plain, even with lace and embroidery. Some of the most beautiful wedding dresses I've seen are white with accent colors, most often a deep red color.

Where in the wedding vows does it say that a lady must be a virgin in order for them to be fulfilled (much in the same way that a contract must be signed by someone of legal age and sound mind)? Philosophically, how can a person break one's wedding vows in an act with the other member of the union?

The idea that the colour of one's garmets indicates the history of the body within is just plain crass.

Snopes has an excellent page on wedding dress lore.. White=virgin is a very modern concept. (At the turn of the last century, most women wore black, because their best clothes were black.)

However, the veil (and the tiara) does signify virginity.

I just want to point out - how exactly is this bride "his wife's niece" and not his niece? I mean, maybe he wants to make it clear that he's not speculating on the sexuality of a blood relative, but still, weird.

I just want to point out - how exactly is this bride "his wife's niece" and not his niece? I mean, maybe he wants to make it clear that he's not speculating on the sexuality of a blood relative, but still, weird.

I have been Amy's reader for awhile now--I'm pretty sure those letters are fake. They concoct hyper-conservative letters to make semi- conservative Amy look better. gotta love the free press!

Modern ettiquette is that wearing white symbolizes a first marriage.

So I wore a white basque and white silk stockings - under a black jacket, black trousers, and a pearl-grey shirt with a black ribbon tie. ;)

I just want to point out - how exactly is this bride "his wife's niece" and not his niece?

Probably it is a second marriage and he does not feel so connected to the family yet...that was my first impression. Or maybe he doesn't like his sister in law (or brother in law) and refuses to claim their family. Anyway, neuroses tend to travel in packs.

I felt bad wearing a "moonlight" colored dress (creamish tending towards white) because my late father insisted I get married in a white dress, and he wasn't there to object.

But aren't wedding colors determined more by culture and tradition than the status of someone's hymen? White's typical of Catholic weddings worldwide and all over US and Japan too. Anyone who insists white=virginity needs to stop reading sex into everything.

White doesn't mean virginity - at least, that wasn't the original intention. Originally, brides just got married in their best clothes, which they'd be wearing again and it didn;t matter what colour. Then, in the Victorian era, aristocratic women made a display of wealth by having large, elaborate and imparactical gowns made from white material - only the richest women could afford to spend so much on a dress that would only ever be worn once. And, like all aristocratic fashions, it began to spread down and gain popularity through all the classes as personal wealth improved. The idea of 'virginity' being represented was given much later on, but it all started as a statement from the upper class.

I wonder what this guy would think about my sister, with 6 children who has been living with her fiance for over two years (and she started dating him while she was seperated from her first husband) wearing white to her wedding which is coming up soon? Lol...and he thought a young woman who is living with her boyfriend wearing a white gown was sinful! He should be happy that his niece isn't getting married to another woman...that would really knock his socks off.

Why, dhsredhead? He probably only thinks you can lose your virginity through penile-vaginal penetration, so a lesbian niece would be a virgin, and the white dress would not be an issue.

Like I said before, I really hope he just stays home. He's going to be a dick with some Scotch in him.

"Forgive him, Caesar - he is a barbarian and considers that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature." G.B.Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra.

The reason brides wear white is this:the princess Victoria wore white,and hers was the first royal wedding to be photographed and widely publicised(and imitated.)
Until then,brides' dresses were any colour(as in "Shakespeare in Love," where bride and groom are in gold.)
And the pervy uncle should indeed mind his own damn business.

I must say, the white = virginity ideal is utterly tasteless and tacky... but I could not help thinking that this particular dress seems to scream, "I'm not a virgin!"
http://www.davidsbridal.com/bridal_gowns_detail.jsp?stid=1210&prodgroup=127

Oh what an ugly gown! The red trim just doesn't look right on it. At least not to me.

lol, mande -- I was just thinking "what a gorgeous dress"!

Different stroke for different folks, I guess :) In my mind it's a GOOD thing we all like different wedding dresses. I mean, otherwise the one we all like would cost a million bucks. :0)

LOL! I'm of the split opinion on it. I think it looks better in the other colours - the red just seems to scream, "I'm not even pretending to wear white!" (Not that there's anything wrong with that. Those who get all upset over brides who wear white will, invariably, be even more pissed off with a bride who embraces the red. Which, to get back on topic, is really what the wife's neice should do!)

That's true, Fairy. I admit to being guilty of liking logo free solid dark colours as my clothing. I think if it were all red it'd be nice, but probably not as a wedding dress. That deep of a red just screams Satan at some people. Red trim just doesn't do it for me.

And a million bucks for a wedding dress? Why oh why when we can go to Denver and get a white dress for $400!

I'm sure, however, that dress has made quite a few women very happy.

Everyone claims that the wedding day is the bride's day. So why such a fuss over the dress she chooses to wear? Why not just be happy she's getting married, since marriage is such a huge part of our society that has been shoved down our throats for years?

Uncle Pervert needs to cool his jets and get his head out from between the thighs of his wife's niece.

As a soon-to-be-married gal myself, I really hope I haven't invited anyone like this to my little wedding. Good reason to keep it small, I guess. Sheesh. By this guy's standards, I should probably show up in mourning clothes. But (see beauty standards post) that would probably also hide my "pre-Raphaelite" cottage cheese curvaceousness, so what would be the fun in that? If ever there's a day to wear what makes you feel fabulous, I would think it's the day you publicly celebrate your love with your life partner.
Also, on a side note, I went to a wedding where someone wore that dress in the link, and it looked amazing! The woman wearing it was so confident- confident enough that the bridesmaids were wearing stunning red dresses, too.

I didn't mind that dress at first, but then I noticed that the two ribbons down the back made it look like the small of her back is bleeding... It's the forked tail of Satan that took her virginity! It's definitely nicer in the other colours.

Has anyone seen that episode of That 70s Show where Eric basically destroys Donna's wedding dress and turns it grey by putting it in the dryer? And his mother is so shocked that all she can say is, "Well... maybe grey is a more honest colour for Donna."

Congratulations, Isfa! :)

By this guy's standards, I should probably show up in mourning clothes. Nooo! See, what they want is for you to be ashamed of yourself and dress appropriately - to acknowledge that you were "sinning" and to shuffle about, head down, with a kick-me look on your face. What they DON'T want you to do is to acknowledge that you are not "pure" and then to have fun with it. ;)

Thanks, Oeno. I think it's best to have a sense of humor when responding to these things. I might end up wearing a dress that isn't white, but it will be because that's what I like wearing more- certainly not out of shame!
Prairie- yeah, I see what you're saying... ick!

When I married my first husband (I was 25), there was discussion about the white-dress issue, but the ladies at the bridal shop assured my mother that when you are a first-time bride you can "pass" as a virgin. When I remarried, I briefly considered not wearing white because obviously I wasn't a virgin anymore. It wasn't only that I was older (34), previously-married, but I was always pregnant at the time(the horror!).

But you know what? Its my wedding, its my day, if I want to wear green or purple or denim, I can. It just so happened I wanted to wear white. We were living in Hawaii and there was a beautiful white holokuu that I fell in love with. And it also felt good to snub the whole white=virginity crap.

I also decided against shoes. I wore a beautiful dress and bare feet. Because it was my day and no way was I going to have sore feet.

I can't even begin to think of what I'll want to wear for my third wedding...