I thought there was a weird pimp dynamic to the whole Donald-Miss USA thing from the very beginning. "Is Donald going to let his property behave like this, or will she pay the consequences? Hey, he let her get away with it--but she should be very, very sorry!" The Playboy thing just sort of confirms all of that.

And Rosie O'Donnell was right: Nobody with the Donald's history should be going around lecturing people about their personal morality.

Cheers,

TH

The problem with comparing male and female sexual behavior is that it is assymetric, and unequal.

All boys need and want casual sex from girls, as this is viewed by the boy peer group as female sexual approval, yet girls only want to have sex with a rather small percentage of males at the top of the male hierarchy (alpha males - those who are popular, violent, rich - ie jocks, thugs, criminals, etc).

Therefore, the situation is unequal, and the average male has a right to feel angry/jealous/emasculated about girl sexual behavior.

Not for morality reasons, for inequality reasons, for being sexually cruel to the majority of boys.

In essence, girls are saying to them, that if they are unwilling to use violence to get to the top of the male hierarchy, they are unworthy of sex.

modern_man, I think you're a little lost. You are obviously under the impression that you are on a different website. I suggest you correct this impression quickly, before you embarrass yourself.

A) Women can behave sexually however they want because they own their own sexuality and owe nothing to men either as a group or individually.

B) The dynamic you describe is so archaic and sexist as to be almost laughable. If you actually believe that, then I really am laughing.

C) I don't know what gives you the idea that only so-called alpha males (whatever that means in the world outside of movies) are getting laid. You must think that the small number of alpha males are sleeping with all of the women in the world. Otherwise, we've got a lot of frustrated boys and girls both running around out there, and a lot of children to explain the origins for.

This is just unbelievable. Does he even see how transparent he is? And that is a good word for it Ann, "handlers". I just find it so hard to believe that any woman would agree or want to be in a situation such as this. But since we live in a society that places beauty above everything else, i guess its no surprise.

In essence, girls are saying to them, that if they are unwilling to use violence to get to the top of the male hierarchy, they are unworthy of sex.

Posted by: modern_man

Well then, what's a Nice Guy to do? Apparently, if I turn down a guy who doesn't try to rape me, what I'm really saying is that I want someone to violently take me or otherwise use violence to win my affections. Right?

oh that's rich

Kimmy, excellent response. I particularly like point (A); one of the things I had to get over (in the "nice guys finish last" logic) is the idea that women owe "nice guys," or anybody else, their sexuality. They don't, any more than we owe gay "nice guys" our sexuality. I'm serious. Modern Man, unless you're going around offering yourself sexually to lonely middle-aged gay men because they're "nice," your line of reasoning has no credibility.

As far as alpha males go, the data I've seen--which confirms my experience--is that 90% of men have lost their virginity and the other 10% don't want to yet. Contrary to general opinion, it takes no particular skill for men to get laid. Sex, if one must view it as a commodity, is not a scarce commodity. If you want to have sex and aren't, then either you're being too picky or you're being too obnoxious or you simply aren't looking in the right places. The problem is not your looks, your income level, or anything of that nature--provided that you're also willing to look past women's looks, income level, and other things of that nature. Some men are not, or don't want to put any real work into the process, which is why prostitution still exists.

As far as "All boys need and want casual sex from girls" goes: I don't, and I am a "boy," so your statement is demonstrably false. QED. (I'm like girls, just ask her, nails done by C.P. Caster. Bonus points for anyone who gets that reference.)

Back to the real topic...

I think a good general critique of pageant culture in general could be grounded in the Donald's pimpish behavior. I'm not the one to write it, at least right now, but there is definitely something there that goes deeper than one middle-aged real estate tycoon with a bad haircut.

Cheers,

TH

Modern_Man- that's crap. Come on, you have to know it.

First, women do enjoy casual sex. They display this every time they are away from the social judgements of their peer groups. Ever seen a woman on vacation?

As for sexual frustration, yes a certain segment of women do get their kicks out of frustrating men. That's not really a female thing though, it's just an extension of the fact that theres a certain segment of the population over-all that takes pleasure from others peoples suffering. As a male, you have to be more aware of this from females because they are often in the strongest position to cause you emotional pain. Women would generally ascribe sadism to men for the same reason.

Kimmy, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. You have the right ot dress as you like and fuck who you'd like, to be sure. You don't have the right to mislead people (willfully) as to your feelings about them. Setting aside the obvious moral arguments and the psychological problems that would indicate, it's still never wise to mess with peoples heads. Trust me on this one, you never know what nerves you could hit.

don't feed the trolls folks...

soullite, I'm not sure where I advocated messing with people's heads. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I didn't. modern_man seemed to be under the impression that women were doing a disservice to "nice" guys by not sleeping with them, and I pointed out that we don't owe anything to anyone that we don't want to give. Where did misleading people come into it?

Modern male, if you're still here and you're serious, I would suggest you find a mental health professional in your area. the level of transference you're displaying isn't healthy. Holding a grudge against an individual is one thing, but deciding that this individual is a perfect representative of a social group isn't good. It isn't normal. I'm not blaming you, the wounds of youth cut very deep and you are as much a victim of this society as those you attack.

Cleary, though the rest of you haven't picked up on it, this person is still fairly young. High school is a tortuous place for some people, and the social heirchary set up then can be very damaging. Anyone who has ever been to highschool knows that high status males tend to be violent and high status females tend to go for high status males. That's where he's getting this "alpha male crap". This person clearly isn't violent, or they wouldn't have a problem with this dynamic. It's just that, the conflicting pull of society (to be violent, to dominate) which pulls against his self (not ot have to fight, to be loved for who you are) that causes this stress. It is not actually the females at all, simply that he views them (in many ways, correctly) as societies reward system. He is alone because he doesn't fit in, and he doesn't fit in because he is unwilling or unable to dominate others. This is the true power of patriarchy, the way it turns it's victims into full throated enemies of their own good.

Kimmy, I wasn't sure what you were saying. I responded to two possibilities in most pst

A) you were being literal and were reffering to your ability to choose to mate with whoever you wanted for whatever reasons you wanted. which is understandable.

or B) you were saying you don't owe people the decency not to fuck with them. Given that that's what I took to be modern males tirade to be about at it's heart (ignoring the deep personal issues he clearly has). He was angry because he felt used and manipulated. Well, I'm assuming he's angry about a lot of things, but that was the focus of his tirade.

And you do owe all people something, at least until they've proven they don't deserve it. You owe it to them to treat them fairly, with respect. I doubt you feel they don't owe that to you.

I am definitely not a troll, I'm just a boy living in an unfair, deeply emasculating situation which makes me feel raped, and want to discuss this rationally.

I only seek to point out a highly unfair situation.

Boys will have casual sex with almost any girl, even if she is unpopular or not that pretty even. Yet girls only will have casual sex with a top portion of "chosen" "special" boys.

This makes the rest of us boys feel unworthy, unloved, disliked, ignored by girls .. confused because we don't understand why we are denied this pleasure and approval. The only difference between us and the popular guys, is we don't use violence and bullying to belittle other boys, therefore we are viewed as weak to the girls in comparison.

Girls should choose to have sex with whoever they wish.

But clearly, they don't make these choices fairly or evenly - and this creates a severely unequal situation of halves and have nots among males, which can often only be rectified via violence against the chosen males, the girls, parents, society ...

soullite, I specifically referred to sexuality in my post. We do not owe our sexuality to anyone. This has no relationship to the question of decency or kindness. Obviously any decent person would want to behave decently.

Men are only haves with regards to women if women are a commodity, like a car. Since women are not a commodity, men cannot be "have nots" with regards to them. You would be happier focusing on cultivating friendships with all genders and types, and worry about the sex when it's wanted on both sides.

I repeat: women are doing you no harm by not having sex with you. They do not owe you, or anyone, sex.

Yes, m_m, you are a troll. Here's how you can tell: you sauntered into a discussion about beauty pageants and the commodification of women as sex objects, and decided that you had a perfect right to change the subject to one that you found more important (read: more relevant to your penis). And then you actually compared not being able to have sex whenever you want to, with whomever you want to, with being raped.

And yet you actually claim that we should take you seriously and discuss your agenda rationally.

Go away, little boy. You bother me.

And soullite, yes, sure, he's in high school. So was I once, and it sucked--but I managed to make it through without developing some idea that sex was my god-given right. It doesn't make anything he's saying less vile.

Modern Man, do you have hemorrhoids? Athlete's foot? Any other personal frustrations, COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD, that you'd like to share with the class?

Cheers,

TH

this is going to sound a tad mean, but perhaps if you didnt whine so much and have a massive inferiority complex, girls would notice that and like you. While i understand what you are saying about many girls liking the "alpha"male type, many also do not. What all girls DO like is a self confidence. Men like self confidence as well, which is why any mature, intelligent male prefers a smart, sassy, confident average looking woman over someone who might be very pretty, but is insecure.

and i can tell you, i have had casual sex with my fair share of men who didnt fit into your 'top tier" or whatever you like to call it. i dont know how old you are, but many times, your position changes on this topic as you get older, when you realize that nice guys really dont finish last.

and yes, everyone else here is right when they say, women arent here to "distribbute" sex evenly and fairly, even to those who they arent attracted to bc they act like little boys. its not our duty to make sure you are sexually satiated so you dont feel despondent about the state of the world. i dont know where you got that bizarre idea.

that being said, i wouldnt call him a troll, just ignorant and young.

Back to the topic at hand...

Donald Trump wasn't around with the whole Vanessa L. Williams bruhaha but I'm sure he wouldn't have approved of her posing because she did it before she was ever in the pagent under her own decisions because she wanted to and she needed the extra money (at the time).

I remember that controversy, as a young black girl at the time it came out it was all my mother and grandmother watched/talked about and my grandmother actually asked my mom to go buy a copy of the magazine. I don't think my grandmother had ever looked at a nude magazine before but and it struck me that this was so "serious" both my mothers had to look for themselves. I didn't see any of the other, probably "dirtier" photos in the magazine but I do remember looking at Vanessa's photos with them and they weren't bad. They were like "art" photos considereing it was in Hustler (I believe this was the magazine).

From what I remembe it was just her topless and in some photos it was her back to back with another woman, and this was before the time of faux lesbian chic. That's what probably sent the conservative judges into a frenzy (at least that's the conclusion my mother and grandmother came to).

If this young woman had done photos BEFORE becoming Miss America, like Ms. Williams then yeah, Donald would probably kick her to the curb because he can't "market" them his way. The unfortunate thing is that for the next year this young woman is techinical "property" and her behavior "reflects" the pagent so "techinically" if her contract states that she can't be seen acting contrary to whatever they deemed "appropriate" then Donald and the other owners kinda do have a right shuck her crown if they feel she is misrepresenting their pagent. If she gave up her crown she could do whatever she wanted publicly or otherwise and then it would be on the next young woman to fulfil the pagent "duties".

However that still makes him a horrible hyporcite if he approves of her doing Playboy, (again, under HIS approval, not hers) though from what I've heard she won't be nude in the magazine she'll just be featured in a bathing suit or something.

I heart Tom Head.

Tom, I'm totally with you on the "sex is not hard to get" issue, though I think that a lot of the reason people don't get laid as much as they'd like to is because they're actually good people who won't resort to things like deception or completely impersonal seuxal relationships. My plan for college was four years of wild promiscuity, and I'm now kind of glad that was thwarted by the whole love and marriage thing (it happens to the best of us, folks). As a teenager, I thought I would do absolutely anything to get laid, but as it turned out I really wouldn't and really didn't. There were just times of maximum horniness that made things seem a lot more dire than they actually were. If an opportunity arose I took it, but it turned out that my more brazen fantasies didn't really fit my real personality in the real world. If the vast majority of men would really have sex with any woman anywhere, there would be a lot more casual sex going on. As it is, my experience just doesn't bear out that men are as single-minded and callous as they imagine themselves to be. It's kind of like how people will go to church and listen to lectures about the sin of homosexuality - but are nice to all the homosexuals they know. It's a kind of beneficial hypocrisy, where people won't stick to their unfair and unkind principles.

UM, it was Penthouse.

>_>...

...what?

Anyway, what confuses me the most is "allow". Maybe I'm not understanding the contract, but I'm pretty sure they took the crown away from her, so isn't whatever contract they might have signed with her null, as she is not Miss USA anymore?

Why are these people acting like they still have control over her body? Or am I confusing her with one of their other pieces of meat (as they view them) from the competition that may have been fired?

Shadow, actually, the benevolent Mr. Trump magnanimously allowed her to keep the crown in spite of her unladylike behavior (what a pal, eh?). This is the incident that let to his catfight with Rosie O'Donnell (oh yes, I said "catfight"), in which she noted that he's hardly the best judge of character, and he came up with the brilliant comeback that she's fat.

Is it any wonder this genius of a man is a multi-gazillionaire?

Trump has always creeped me out. I my mind, he's right up there with Bill O'Reilly and Bill Maher as a narcissistic creepy creep. He thinks he owns everything, so why not Miss USA to boot?

TomHead wrote:
Sex, if one must view it as a commodity, is not a scarce commodity. If you want to have sex and aren't, then either you're being too picky or you're being too obnoxious or you simply aren't looking in the right places.

Now, this isn't always true. Take the men (and/or women) out there that aren't "normal". Like the men who are retarded, have Autism, or even High-functioning Autism or Asperger's Syndrome. It's not a matter of not trying, or not looking in the right places. It's that they're simply TOO WEIRD. I suggest you do some reading on things like Asperger's Syndrome. People with it aren't very socially adept. It varies by individual, but it's extremely difficult to make friends, let alone get casual sex.

There is a word for what Donald Trump is seeking to do here, and it is exactly the same word that has been appropriately applied to Hugh Hefner: pimp. This news is nothing less than despicable, but sadly to be expected from Trump, who has proven time and again to have very few redeeming qualities as a human being.

Also, modern_man, your name is a misnomer. You are simply a modern_misogynist whose attitude towards women is pathetic and degrading. If a woman doesn't want to have sex with you, it's not "unfair" because it is her decision, and hers alone, as to whom she will have sex with. I realize that in our society sex is portrayed as the most important objective of a young man's life, but if you took some time to think for yourself and come up with some real life goals, you'll find that there are many things that you should put on a higher priority than "getting some" so that you fit in with all your buddies.

Sick. I wonder why they havn't put a woman in the position that Donald is taking? I bet Donald thinks hes untouchable, because he has money, and contacts. How come I havnt heard more feminists denouncing this?

Get real, of course sex is a commodity, a scarce resource, because it is based upon supply and demand. It controls the balance of power within the male hierarchy, which then controls access to other resources, such as education, jobs, etc. We are primates after all, just like the chimpanzees.

Iow, this is not about sex, it's about power also - girls are trading sex for power - not just having sex for enjoyment because the guy is charismatic or good looking or friendly or whatever.

As i stated above, individually, a girl has the right to choose who she has sex with.

The problem is one of collectively unfair and abusive behavior, where the majority of females are having sex with and fawning over a minority of popular males - those who use violence, bullying, intimidation, ill gotten wealth(drug dealing, stealing, etc) etc -to hold us boys down - because we can't or won't fight back.

Females and the top males must face justice - we average boys are not some group of second class citizens who deserve to be beaten up, ostracized, denied sex/female approval while everybody else enjoys everything.

The system must change, or we ourselves may decide to behave in a collectively unjust fashion as well to change it.

O moderator goddesses, I admire your patience but I think it's time to throw a lightning bolt down here.

Just for the record: If somebody denies me sex, I won't try to overthrow the government.

Cheers,

TH

ZAP. Done and done. ;)

Thank you, moderator goddess!

On the bright side, when someone goes on about nice guys finishing last, we can point them to this thread.

"Now, this isn't always true. Take the men (and/or women) out there that aren't "normal". Like the men who are retarded, have Autism, or even High-functioning Autism or Asperger's Syndrome. It's not a matter of not trying, or not looking in the right places. It's that they're simply TOO WEIRD. I suggest you do some reading on things like Asperger's Syndrome. People with it aren't very socially adept. It varies by individual, but it's extremely difficult to make friends, let alone get casual sex."

I've worked in mental health since 1990. Yes, there IS plenty of casual sex going on in these groups, even if they do have trouble making friends. Maybe not true for people who are kept at home and isolated, but many who live in group homes or who have their own places or who work in the community do fine plenty of opportunities to have sex.

ha ha "permission to pose"!

ha ha ha ha ha ha

ha ha

They mean "permission to pose this year," because obviously the Trump/Miss USA Syndicate has no power whatsoever over the unchaste lass once someone else is that year's Miss USA.

So the idea is to cash in right-the-heck-now by demonstrating with photography that Tara Conner does, indeed, have a body under her clothes - now, during her tenure as Miss USA, this being, woo-eee, the thrilling trangressive part. Rather than posing bikini-less next year.

Transgressing the moral sanctuary of Miss USA. On sale at your nearest newsstand today!

I have been scanning through every comment and what I'm about to say may not be as eloquently delivered as some of Kimmy's posts but here is goes

modern_man......shut up!

it's just like katie said, "ts not our duty to make sure you are sexually satiated so you don't feel despondent about the state of the world," and there is nothing that you can say to redeem yourself from some of the previous comments you've made.

also I have NO idea how you linked a male's sexual satisfaction to the ability to receive a job or education.