Re: the woman who is afraid of her daughter. An unfortunate manifestation of the way girls & women are taught to distrust one another. Still, I don't think we ought to be judging moms' feelings, whether they're insufficiently feminist or insufficiently representative of June Cleaver. Doesn't help.

I'm not sure I agree. If a mother expresses anti-feminist feelings so strong that they bias her against her own daughter, doesn't that tell us something worth knowing about the power and pervasiveness of patriarchal ideology? Isn't that worth commenting on? I agree that if all we're going to do is shake our fingers (metaphorically) and say "Bad Mommy!" then we're all probably better off without that, but I like to think that here at feministing.com we usually get a level of discussion going that's more...worthwhile.

I have met so many women who seem to have similar feeling about boys. I've really had people come up to me and tell me its a "shame" that I don't have a daughter (one woman said this in front of my son...I wanted to hit her). Or I have met people who have said that they would only have a kid if it was gauranteed to be a girl. They seem to assume that a little boy is the same thing as, i don't know... the guys who broke their hearts in college or who make catcalls in the street or someone who will have nothing to do with mommy later in life or just be "gross"!!!
It always baffles me that people project so many things upon children and babies. Gender stereotypes for kids are really intense, even amongst some people who don't realize that they are stereotyping. The same goes for expectations that people put on their kids. It really just baffles me that anyone would prefer one sex to another and furthermore expect only one sex to fullfill certain dreams of the parents. Everyone has different parenting skills, but still, I think its reasonable and moral to at least give your kids a chance to develop into their own person.

In front of your son she said this? That's disgusting.

I mean, bad enough that she would say such a thing to you anyway, but actually in front of the kid? It really infuriates me the way so many adults seem to think that children aren't really human--that kids are like pets, and you can just ignore their thoughts and feelings because they're too stupid to understand you anyway.

I found out in my late teens/early twenties that my dad had hoped for a boy when I was born (I'm the oldest). I have a younger brother, and my dad still loved me and supported me and was proud of me, etc., but it kind of sucks to know that. And by "kind of" I mean "really really really."

I agree... it is so silly to inflict our notions of gender on undeveloped children. I mean, hell, if the unborn have some kind of right to life, shouldn't they also have a right to self-determination?

I actually sympathize with the woman who feared having a daughter. I could have written that quote myself. My jr. high years were a misery and I was exclusively the target of mean girls. Even into my early 20's I still felt a shudder of revulsion when I heard a gaggle of tween girls pass me by. I got over it, though I'm still not comfortable around large groups of children.

However, it's unfair to the author of the article to cherry-pick that one statement. True, she was taken aback by the news of her baby's gender, but when your life is going through a major change like that, the thoughts that flood your mind aren't always "appropriate." It's far better that she recognize and address those feelings than ignore them, and let her sub-conscious act them out.

In reading the rest of the article, it seems clear to me that she's far from a girl-hating mommy.

i figure you should want either/or bc god knows we need more feminists regardless of the gender!

although i have to admit not wanting boys just bc i feel the fight to make them into feminists is alot harder it seems to me. also, like many people mentioned, i just dont like alot of women and never have. not bc they were mean or catty, but more bc i couldnt stand the way they really just reinforced all the stereotypes i was trying to fight. eh whatever.

as for camille paglia, um, i agree, i mean does anyone here think we should SUPPORT stupid britney etc for being such moronic wastes of life? i mean what kind of role model is that?

I prefer Britney to Camille Paglia any day of the week. At least Spears, to my knowledge, has never argued that all civlization's advances have been thanks to men or that sexual excitement is due to the possiblity of rape, or whatever other nonsense Paglia has spewed out in her constant quest to keep her name in the public spotlight. Spears and Hilton are at least honest about their pursuit of mega-fame at all costs, rather than trying to persuade anybody that they should be taken seriously.

ok fine i am for neither. lets face it though, 10 year old girls arent exactly listening and or seeing camille in the spotlight whereas britney and paris are easily accessible to girls of all ages.

After scanning the mommy article, it seems like the author would have had similar fears if she were expecting a boy -- thinking of all the boys/men who have treated her badly. The article is about all of her fears and trepidations, only one paragraph touches on her conflicts with girls during her childhood.

I don't want kids, but I've often thought that if I did have them I would hope for a boy because I can't imagine how hard it would be to watch as my daughter starts to hate her body, which I really do think is almost inevitable--my mother never said anything about my body (in fact sometimes I wish she called me beautiful less because I hate attention of any kind being drawn to my looks) but it happened anyway. I guess boys have their own horrible coming of age experiences, but being a girl myself I feel I would find the recognition so painful.

But, like I said I don't want kids, so obviously my perspective is skewed.

Regarding HPV and the possibility of vaccinating men, I found it a little strange that the linked article focused pretty much exclusively on gay men and the possibility of making the vaccine available to them. I'm no expert on HPV, but I know men can get it and transfer it regardless of whether they're gay or straight. Isn't putting the focus on solely vaccinating gay men just going to fuel fundie paranoia? And wouldn't it be better for public health anyway to promote vaccination of all young men, gay or straight, provided of course that the vaccine is found to be effective in men as well as women?

I'd be in favor of that. And besides, HPV can cause all kinds of cancer--including penile cancer, which is never fun--which is how I'd be inclined to promote this as a public health priority, actually, since it's easier to sell people on the idea of vaccines to protect their own health than it is to sell people on the idea of vaccines to protect other people's health. Just say "this form of cancer can mean they have to whack your willie off" and you'll have men rolling up their sleeves in no time--and, I'd wager, a curiously silent religious right.

Cheers,

TH

Re: The Woman Who Hates Women--
This is a fascinating issue to me because I can relate so well. I grew up doing as much as I could to avoid other women. I was never specifically a target of so-called "mean girls," but I maintained this inherent distrust in females, who I perceived to be manipulative, self-centered, attention-starved backstabbers. I thought the flirting game was embarrassingly obvious and didn't feel the need to have my guy friends hanging all over me--because I didn't resort to this "game", I also wasn't really considered romantically, but given as I was coping with being sexually abused at the time, I really didn't care. I felt safe with my male peers and that's what mattered most at the time.

When I would tell my Mom that I didn't really like hanging out with girls, she'd say, "That's right, girls are stupid" and elaborate on all their petty and insignificant interests like fashion, and shopping, and Machiavellian social games.

I've only very recently begun to come around to question the assumptions I have made about females throughout the course of my life. Throughout all of this time of proclaiming I dislike girls, I have had close female friends--currently, I have more female friends than male friends... and you know what, I LOVE them. All of my friends, male and female, are good people.

So I'm looking back, questioning how this attitude was able to manifest itself in me, a woman myself. I'm trying to make an honest analysis about the socialization of female-female competition, the way even my mother encouraged me not to trust "those icky girls," and wondering how many OTHER women have had similar, maybe unspoken thoughts. From my experience working at a labor center, it seems the fastest way to shut down any growing movement of opposition to labor rights violations is to divide the people. Maybe that's what is being done here... dividing us. I mean, if you don't like other women, why on earth would you want to fight for their rights?

I want to thank you all. Though I'm pretty new to the Feministing site, it has already been instrumental in making me a more critical thinker.

Olives,
Christy

I understand how you feel, olive. I never really got on with the other girls in school either and I saw many displays of pettiness and backstabbing too. Even now, I only have one, very close female friend because my hobbies and interests are quite "traditionally masculine". I think this "catty" behaviour is encouraged in girls for several reasons: 1. I think you're quite right in assuming that a "divide and conquer" mentality is at play here: The traditional idea of jealousy and competition between girls is pretty efficient in diverting their attention from more concrete problems and also in crushing any solidarity between them.
2. Overt violence is not tolerated in girls, therefore they often resort to more indirect and vicious forms of aggression like backstabbing, rumour spreading, etc. because it is considered socially acceptable.
I think the only way we can ever solve this problem is by fighting gender stereotypes as a whole, especially as regards the education of children.

the only way we can ever solve this problem is by fighting gender stereotypes as a whole, especially as regards the education of children

women's history and racially inclusive history should be taught K-12 with regular history classes. comprehensive sex ed should be taught K-12 also. girls need an intervention with the epidemics of negative stereotyping, body image problems, eating disorders, low self-esteem, depression, self-mutilation, teen pregnancy, etc.

TH, thanks for the factoid about HPV and penile cancer. I didn't know that. If they marketed the vaccine with that info in the collegetown I live in, girls would probably have to shove all the freshman fratboys out of the way to get any, hehe.