Funny how the film is by men.

Ugh, people like that make me angry...especially the idea that you can't both be 'feminist' and 'feminine.' Of course, most of these ladies have their heads in boxes, like their husbands tell them to do. But what I hate the most is how everyone pushes this Christianism. I'm NOT Christian, and I don't CARE what Jesus has to say, thank you.

Sorry. I grew up in Fundietown, USA.

I'm especially sad to see Jennifer Chancey on there...she's affiliated with an historical pattern site I patronize. *weeps*

Wow.
I thought this clip must be a preview of a film demonstrating just how crazy those fundies can be.
And I guess it is, even though I'm guessing that isn't the film-makers' intention!

I was a little lost on why they felt what the cadet was saying supported any of the rest of this sh*t.

For what it's worth, I am a Christiann, and these people do NOT reflect my faith! There is still a Christian left out here & we are still working for social justice (including equal access to marriage).

I love the femininism vs. feminine thing. It's too funny. It's actually only SINCE I have become full-grown in my feminism that I have been comfortable w/ anything "girly!"

Wow, watching that sober was a really, really bad idea. Next time you suggest a drinking game, I'll take your word for it. :)

I agree with tink... I have no idea how the cadet's statement was supporting the rest of them... unless they're arguing that if it weren't for those crazy feminists making women be in the military, sexism wouldn't exist? ...Nah, that can't be right, can it? Oh, I need a drink.

way to go, tink.
Although I am not religious, I often wonder about how infuriating it must be for social justice-oriented Christians to be lumped in with this sort of nuttiness.

please note that it is all southern accents except for the woman in britain. i guess even europe has its crazies.

god what an obnoxious video.

and arsenic-you dont have to be christian to appreciate what jesus had to say. much like you dont have to be hindu to appreciate gandhi. jesus never said anything remotely like what those woman in that video said.

Reminds me of Faludi's Backlash's introduction "Blame It On Feminism"

And the classical music at the end of the clip was the cherry on top of how much I laughed at the women expressing their um...opinions. I dunno they kindda looked like male-programmed robots to me.

I was also commenting to a friend on how much I love to see how the Chrstian girl from high school that used to call me a slut is pregnant out of wedlock. I don't have anything against Christianity, heck I was reaised Catholic, but I really hate seeing Christian girls judging us calling us sluts when in the end they're the ones who wind up as pregnant teenagers.

I think they're more lose because their religion forbids the use of contraceptives and they get pregnant and they have baby after baby and babies are bigger than penises [penii?] therefore having babies makes you more lose than having lots of sex, unless you have cesarian births.

GOSH I'm so outraged by this I ranted!

It has nothing to do with what Jesus said. It has everything to do with what "Jesus"(TM) said.

If you go to the YouTube link, comments are disabled. I find that fascinated.

Wow, that would be some crazy drinking. I would be passed out on the floor after the first minute of that tripe. Maybe the rest of you have more tolerance, you binge-drinking, loose, child-hating feminists.

i am assuming you meant loose claudzilla?

and yeah, having sex with those quiverfull mothers must be like throwing a pebble into a cave.

"Although I am not religious, I often wonder about how infuriating it must be for social justice-oriented Christians to be lumped in with this sort of nuttiness."

anorak, VERY.

:0)

Haha! I tried that. Except the puking. And the fucking, 'cos my chap's away for the week. I'm pretty drunk now.

(My graduation ceremony involved being whacked on the head with a piece of John Knox's pantaloons. Urgh.)

What?? What was that one woman about, saying that she did abortions and went into schools to drum up business? That she tried to get girls sexually active so they'd have 3-5 abortions in high school? I hope whoever she worked for sees this and sues her ass for libel.

"and yeah, having sex with those quiverfull mothers must be like throwing a pebble into a cave"

Thats really rude and uncalled for. Thanks for steeping down to their level.

yeah, i think that not only is that not true, but that it can safely be said that most people who are sexually active in high school do NOT end up with 3-5 abortions. what a crock of shite!

dsredhead-thanks for proving hitchens or whatever his name is point about woman having zero sense of humor. oh-not to mention the whole "feminists have no sense of humor" stereotype as well. and i think that if your lifes ambition is to have as many children as possible, that after round 5, things just arent going to be the same down there. i wasnt the first one to point it out.

I didn't play the game, but after I watched this I had to drown my sorrows in a bottle of wine. The thing that scares me the most as a young feminist, is the comercialization of Christianity, which has engendered such things as the W.W.J.D. jewelry, Christian rock concerts, Christian clothing lines, and other various forms of religious pop-culture, and has aimed (successfully) to make this pop-culture brand of religion "cool." Then a video like this comes along, and the kids who have been brainwashed believe all the lies, because "faith is cool, and feminism isn't." I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't known some of these kids myself, who thought violently picketing Planned Parenthood was more fun than a rock concert.

I didn't play the game, but after I watched this I had to drown my sorrows in a bottle of wine. The thing that scares me the most as a young feminist, is the comercialization of Christianity, which has engendered such things as the W.W.J.D. jewelry, Christian rock concerts, Christian clothing lines, and other various forms of religious pop-culture, and has aimed (successfully) to make this pop-culture brand of religion "cool." Then a video like this comes along, and the kids who have been brainwashed believe all the lies, because "faith is cool, and feminism isn't." I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't known some of these kids myself, who thought violently picketing Planned Parenthood was more fun than a rock concert.

Katie_ I should rephrase than. I mean "Jesus" as they present him. Jesus himself was very different, you're right. I mean the authors of Proverbs, St. Paul, and Titus, to name a few, are the ones about whose opinions I don't give a damn.

And Knicole, rock on! You're exactly right on that.

thanks for proving hitchens or whatever his name is point about woman having zero sense of humor. oh-not to mention the whole "feminists have no sense of humor" stereotype as well.

Count me as another one who didn't think your joke was all that funny. But blame it on my gender, please.

"dsredhead-thanks for proving hitchens or whatever his name is point about woman having zero sense of humor. oh-not to mention the whole "feminists have no sense of humor" stereotype as well."

That's ridiculous. Juvenile and offensive is NOT the only kind of comedy that's out there. Personally, I agree with dhs -- it only hurts women as a group when we make derogatory remarks about another woman's genitals. Politics are no excuse to drag down women of any stripe. Part of feminism is protecting and celebrating a woman's right to choose -- whether she chooses to have fifty abortions or fifty children.

Law Fairy,

Beautifully said. It's funny to be told that I hate (other) women now, when I am WAY better to ALL women than back when I used to defer to men. Wait - I was pretty slutty back then too. Holy Crap! I became a feminist and THEN I became a Christian Married Mother! How do I fit in these not job's world-view? (Oh yeh, I don't;)

Carlie,
I wondered about the woman talking about the goal of "getting girls to be sexually active so they'd have 3-5 abortions" thing too. Huh? I suspect she's making the whole thing up. I mean, unless she used to work for....SATAN. Mooo ha ha ha ha!

What cracks me up is that Phyllis Schafly is a LAWYER.....if it weren't for feminism would she have been able to get where she is today? HOw come she can have a career and the rest of us have to stay home and pump out babies?

i don't usually have enough booze to play that game laying around the house. will have to run to the store before watching again.

Ladies Against Feminism = LAF

THAT's funny.

re: carol everett (the woman who was supposedly getting girls sexual active, etc.)

i've dug a little bit...

this is pretty thorough, though hard to sift through:

will the real carol everett please stand up

some highlights include that, unlike most people working in abortion clinics (including many doctors), she was pulling over 100,000$US a year... as a sales person...

she got into the anti-choice racket after her aggressive and unethical sales practices were exposed by a local television station.

now, she makes 750$US on any one day she lectures, in addition to whatever her salary at the heidi group is (where she is described as a "compassionate individual", which is laughable, considering that she was busted for consumer fraud in a very sensitive business).

there's definitely more, though, if you read that link above. this woman did, in fact, work for saaaaaTAN and she still does - and the beast has been and continues to line her pockets pretty damn well.

here's another article which mentions the punk.

more... just 'cos i love a liar...

dug up the 2004 form 990 for the heidi group... realized that, as it's a nonprofit, its financial records should be somewhat available...

anyways, posted the document here for your perusal. long story short, in addition to everett's 750$ (that's an old number, btw, from a 1991 interview with Catholic Spirit) per diem when speaking

(i'm sure that's in addition to travel expenses, having organized conferences myself, with much lower honorariums)...

carol everett pulls 90,000$ as founder and ceo of the heidi group.

turns out "getting god" worked out pretty well for her. i wonder what that 90g's has turned into in the wake of the the recent earmarking of millions of dollars for "crisis pregnancy centers" in texas, where the heidi group files.

ugh.

sorry for hijacking the thread, but this woman's got me a li'l upset ova hea'

Is anyone surprised by the fact that this crockumentary is produced by two men?

I think it can safely be assumed that vast majority of abortion providers, while touting it as an option, would prefer girls/women to be on birth control and prevent the pregnancy in the first place.

I swear that I will not always bring up Catharine MacKinnon when I comment on here. (But goddamn do I feel high from just being some place where people talk about her. Fuckin' A. Thank you Feministing.)

Just wanted to say to Furious Female - there is a kick ass essay in MacKinnon's FEMINISM UNMODIFIED called Not by Law Alone, taken from a 1982 debate with Phyllis Schlafly. In it she addresses directly the issue you raised.

Part of what made me fall for MacKinnon as a person, and not just for her work, is in what her words and actions taught me about compassion and integrity. The essay kicks ass not just because of how brilliantly MacKinnon discusses issues of personhood, rights, and women anti-feminists, but because she refuses to be anti-Schlafly, the individual. I feel like Andrea Dworkin set a similar example in RIGHT WING WOMEN.

Thanks, pukalish, for the exposé on Carol Everett, you rock!

Well, now I'm ready for NaDruBloDa.

First of all, as a southern girl, I think whomever pointed out that most of these women are southern thus implying that stupidity is somehow a southern phenomenon should stop and think how that implication is no less ignorant than what the women in the video are spewing as the truth.

Secondly, where in the world did they get these women? We all already knew what a nutjob Phyllis Schlafly is. Schlafly, by the way, also not a southerner. She's a mid-westerner. Born in Missouri, I believe, and spending a lot of time in the Chicago area and the west coast, if I'm correct.

Man, if only I knew that turning sexually active would mean I'd have so many abortions! Wow! I need to get busy. I've not had an abortion yet! What a poor feminist I am!

i personally do NOT think that feminism should be something where we celebrate ANY womans choice just cause shes a woman. Someone has 50 children and raises them to be racists, homophobic anti feminists-well you know what, i am not going to support that choice just bc shes a woman. its irresponsible, not just from a natural resource perspective, but from a social one as well.

Thank you, carolina girl!

As a person who comes from generations of Southerners on both sides, I also am offended. Sure, there are a large concentration of religious Republicans in the South. But that does not make us all stupid. Nor does it make those of us who are feminist an 'enligtened few.' All it means is that by probability we are predisposed to having more of these type of ladies among us. Plenty of my familiy members are middle ground. They are neither psycho fundies nor are they left-wing. But this does not make them stupid or unenlightened.

you guys are right. i am sorry. i mean obviously not all southerners are like that (hello bill clinton and just about every other democratic president). its just that every time i have been down there (which has been well over 20 times-midwest included) i have had a horrible experience with racism and close mindedness that really took my breath away. not that everywhere doesnt have that, but this kind was so blatant and disgusting that it made a real mark on me. even in atlanta which supposedly is a very cosmopolitan city.

katie, so you don't think, say, fundamentalists should be allowed to raise children?

Well, obvious disgusting, lying propaganda.

If this is going to be a movie however, how do you think this will effect the feminism/anti-feminism struggle? Michael Moore's documentaries were pretty effective I thought, and these are along the same lines.. just lying and deceitful.

The problem with this movie is that while we can spot all the lies and misdirections, many people wont. At least that's my concern. People believe what they are told.

Do you all think this will cause any significant anti-feminist sentiments??

anyone should have the right to raise children, it doesnt mean i have to agree with what they instill in them. are you telling me you support a persons way of raising a child that instills hate in them? i think they should HAVE the choice, it doesnt mean i cant condemn (or disagree) how they do it. when are feminists going to stop being so morally relative in the name of politcal correctness?

i would also like to point out nowhere did i see in my post "they shouldnt be allowed to have children". i just think its a disservice to society how they raise them. i am not really sure how, if indeed you believe in giving all children the correct information and not filling their heads with racist garbage, you can disagree with that.

katie, I never said that you said they shouldn't be allowed to "have" kids, I asked about raising them, as you note you were discussing.

I dispute the notion that because children are raised a certain way, they turn out a certain way. Just so my perspective on this is clear, *I* was raised by fundamentalists. I guess we can judge them by how fucked up I turned out, hmm?

also, katie, what does any of this have to do with making immature and offensive remarks about another woman's vagina? Remember this is how we started going down this road.

i agree, just bc you are raised a certain way doesnt mean you will turn out a certain way...but guess what, it does have a large effect. and are you honestly saying that its ok to instill things like that in a childs head? i mean honestly, what you are saying is preposterous. yes, lets tell children that black people are inferior to whites and *hope* that not all of them end up that way bc not *all* do. and the vagina comment was a satirical commoment in response to her talking about how feminists are loose. but i forgot, you dont like immature non-refined humor. it is a sad day when people have to explain when something is satire. i mean do you really think that i believe that crap that a womans vagina gets looser? its a proven fact it doesnt!

ok this is dumb...there are more important things to worry about.

I beg to differ...the future of feminism, the fight against racism, and this country, all depend on the children that are being raised by liberals and conservatives alike. I can't think of a more important thing to discuss.

Oh, and by the way, Atlanta is currently the most dangerous city in the United States. Not a good model for a 'cosmpolitan' or 'tolerant' city. As for your continuing underhanded attacks on the South as a whole, I don't just visit here, I live here, and while I do see discrimination regularly, I see it on the national 'liberal' news more often than I do in my daily life. Tell me, are you seeking out these racist situations?

katie, here's what I'm saying:

As feminists, we either support a woman's right to choose to have children (or not) or we don't. My original remark was that my brand of feminism supports a woman's choice.

Also as feminists, we can decide that "jokes" demeaning women's genitals are funny, or that they are not. I don't think they're funny, and neither do dhsredhead or many others here. When dhs pointed out that the joke was offensive and unfunny, you responded by accusing her of being humorless. How does this add to the discussion? Why is it okay to make fun of women's genitals if they choose to have children, but not if they choose abortions? My point was that the distinction is faulty and if we go down that road, we're just as bad as the misogynist pricks who make demeaning remarks about women who have multiple sexual partners. If you'd care to explain how this does not constitute sinking to their level, by all means, go ahead.

You then brought up the tangential issue of how people raise their children, which, by the way, has nothing to do with the size of anyone's vagina. After you brought this issue up, I questioned the ramifications of what YOU suggested. I am not the one who brought this issue up.

As Americans (at least, I am American -- I apologize, I don't want to make assumptions about anyone else here, so that's just where my perspective is coming from), we either believe in people's right to raise their children how they choose, or we don't. If you can tell people they should raise their kids with certain values, then others can tell you the same thing. And think about who's in power right now: you really want Big Brother telling you that you have to teach your kids that contraception is bad? If we start telling parents how to raise their kids, what's your limiting principle? Who gets to make these decisions? My point is that it's better to give people the freedom to make mistakes, than give the government the power to REQUIRE mistakes.

And Arsenic is right: this is an incredibly important question, and I was trying to get a handle on what your position is. No one here thinks it's GOOD to raise kids in a bigoted home. But what's the answer to this? To pass laws barring people from teaching their kids their values (and bear in mind what a slippery slope this is)? To make fun of the size of their vaginas? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Hi ya'll. As my whole famiy is from the South, I resent the whole Southern = stupid thing too.

I am definitely not on board w/ much of what "katie" has posted here, but I have noticed (on another thread) that katie is on a university computer and sometimes forgets to log out. Then someone else posts incredibly jerky things w/ her sign-in. Just so you know...

first of all arsenic, i didnt make an y continunting underhanded comment. i apologized and said i had many bad experiences. i hate to break it to you, but i am not the only person who has had said experiences. i said that it happens everywhere, but in my own personal experience (and other peoples) it happened far more blatantly. it seems to me you are a bit defensive, esp considering i apologized. also , to IMPLY that i seek racist situations out is simply disgusting and underhanded yourself. no, as a matter of fact, i was sitting at the foot of stone mountain simply minding my business for that particular incident. also, if you are going to use statistics, please use the rtight ones. Atlanta is the 7th most dangerous city in the US.

i do not have an answer to the question of how to not raise kids in a bigoted home. simply because it is too slippery a slope.

and i will mention again that my comment was in response to that own womens view of feminists as "loose". it has nothing to do with the broader idea of women having children. i am not sure why i have to explain that when the person in the video CLEARLY made a loose comment. a play on words if you will. sorry it offended you. in terms of how it relates to raising children, well the same women who i was referring to bc they are using the typical stereotype that feminists are loose are often the same women (she is from quuiverfull after all) that have many many children and instill those same values in them. and i said i dont agree with raising children like that. that being said, no, i am not sure there IS anything we can do, except make sure education is as good as it can be. that however may also not help considering that many are homeschooled. but like you said, not every child will grow up like their parents (you included).

For the record, I didn't think katie's joke was funny either. But having watched the spat between katie et al, I really don't think people are being entirely fair to her.

katie, so you don't think, say, fundamentalists should be allowed to raise children?

But what's the answer to this? To pass laws barring people from teaching their kids their values (and bear in mind what a slippery slope this is)?

Whoa. Complete and total straw man. katie didn't say anything even remotely resembling what you're suggesting she said, TLF. She said it was irresponsible to instill hateful values in kids. That's all. She made no claims whatsoever about who should be allowed to do what. Let's look again at what she wrote, just to make sure:

i personally do NOT think that feminism should be something where we celebrate ANY womans choice just cause shes a woman. Someone has 50 children and raises them to be racists, homophobic anti feminists-well you know what, i am not going to support that choice just bc shes a woman. its irresponsible, not just from a natural resource perspective, but from a social one as well.

"I don't support that choice." "It's irresponsible." Maybe your law-magic can transmute those sentences into "Such-and-such should be illegal," but my mere mortal analytical capacities can't.

As feminists, we either support a woman's right to choose to have children (or not) or we don't.

Sleight of mind. Again, let's look at what katie actually wrote:

i am not going to support that choice just bc shes a woman.

I support the right of gay people to vote for republicans, but I think it's a dumb choice. I support the right of women to alter their bodies to conform to male-imposed standards of beauty, but I think it's stupid. The difference isn't hard to grasp. Moving on...

As for your continuing underhanded attacks on the South as a whole, I don't just visit here, I live here, and while I do see discrimination regularly, I see it on the national 'liberal' news more often than I do in my daily life.

Disclaimer: I'm not a southerner. If I'm being a dork, please don't hesitate to tell me so. But aside from the (admittedly silly) remark about the women in the video having southern accents, I'm not seeing any "underhanded attacks on the South." katie admitted to having attitudes towards the south that are not uncommon (and not entirely unjustified, like it or not), and then she apologized. What more is she supposed to say?

Having read the whole discussion, it really looks to me like katie inadvertantly pushed some buttons, and then people started getting all defensive.

squip, as I said, I was trying to get a handle on what she said. I didn't bring up any straw men. I was asking her to clarify what she was saying. If she had simply said, "no, of course people should have the legal right to raise their children a certain way," I would have left the point alone. But she didn't make clear that she simply morally disapproved of their choices. Rather, from the tone of her comment it appeared to me that she was unhappy with the fact that that choice existed, as evidenced by her remark that she did not support the choice, rather than that she thought it was a wrong choice. My questions were hardly out of left field.

And, as I stated earlier, I wasn't the one who brought upbringing into it. I started by saying, I support women's choice. She countered by saying she didn't support certain choices. It was entirely logical of me to inquire whether that meant she wanted to limit such choices.

And I don't know of any who possesses "law-magic." Judges, maybe.

Anyway, I get that you're trying to come to katie's defense, which is fine, but I'll note that you're not really understanding what I was saying. For example, you quote katie and then make some statements of your own:

"i am not going to support that choice just bc shes a woman.

I support the right of gay people to vote for republicans, but I think it's a dumb choice. I support the right of women to alter their bodies to conform to male-imposed standards of beauty, but I think it's stupid. The difference isn't hard to grasp. Moving on..."

Here, you're saying you "support" their choices but don't approve of them. In the part of the comment you quote, katie said she did not "support" their choices. So even you yourself have noted the difference -- that's precisely what I was talking about.

I have to say that I love The Law Fairy (A LOT), but squib makes some good points (Bob, is that you?)... except about the South. I don't think it's more racist (or stupid) than anywhere else; it's just more out in the open because the CULTURE of the South supports talk & openess, even when it's bad. This is a tangent, but since we are all ready here, here we are.

I don't want to argue for argument's sake, so please don't take this as being in any way hostile or anything.

I was asking her to clarify what she was saying. If she had simply said, "no, of course people should have the legal right to raise their children a certain way," I would have left the point alone. But she didn't make clear that she simply morally disapproved of their choices.

Um...

anyone should have the right to raise children, it doesnt mean i have to agree with what they instill in them.

Rather, from the tone of her comment it appeared to me that she was unhappy with the fact that that choice existed, as evidenced by her remark that she did not support the choice, rather than that she thought it was a wrong choice.

So what you're saying is that your entire criticism of katie (and of my defense of katie) hinges on the meaning of the word "support?" Sorry TLF, I think that's a really tortured and pedantic reading of what's been said.

supporting a choice and supporting the RIGHT to have that choice are two totally and completely different things. i dont support the choice, but i most certainly support the right to make that choice.

anyway, thanks squib and tink.

tink, i am not sure it is more "open" but i do think its more accepted in terms of less political correctness. (maybe thats what you were trying to say?) although the stuff i heard wasnt exactly trying to start an intellectual discussion. i mean, there are prevalent beliefs about the south. are they entirely and completely off base? i am asking this for real not to have my head bitten off. i mean, you dont see people flying the confederate flag up north (or not nearly as often).

I guess we can judge them by how fucked up I turned out, hmm?

You turned out pretty well considering the purity balls, fundamentalist family and god knows what else. :-D

katie inadvertantly pushed some buttons, and then people started getting all defensive.

katie, quit inadvertently pushing buttons. :)

Why do people keep calling me squib?

I don't think it's more racist (or stupid) than anywhere else; it's just more out in the open because the CULTURE of the South supports talk & openess, even when it's bad.

How is saying that racism is more "open" in the south different from saying that the south is more racist? Seriously, I want to be educated. I'm not denying that there's racism in the north, too, but if northern "closed" racism skews toward cab drivers passing by black men, and "open" racism skews toward, you know, racially-motivated violence, then how can you honestly say that they're the same? Or are my ideas about what constitutes racism in the south totally off-base?

ok ok I'll try Donna! :)

And I realized I made that mistake SquiP and I can't say I know why I called you that lol. And I am interested in anyone who wants to answer Squips question about the South as well. Also please don't get defensive, its simply a question.

lol

I'm not trying to get in fights... I'm a lawyer, arguing is what I do. I enjoy it and I don't dislike people just from disagreeing with them, etc. Seriously, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just saw something that I took to seem akin to a certain argument, and so I started arguing on that level. Squip, my point was more just that what I said wasn't completely out of left field like you suggested. I'm not saying I was one hundred percent right or that I didn't misinterpret katie (and katie, absolutely it is possible I just misunderstood what you said, so I apologize if I mis-stated anything you said), I just don't like people thinking my arguments don't at least make internal sense :)

And, katie, I'll admit I got a *little* huffy since the topic touched a little close to home, but honestly more than anything I just saw an argument I was interested in having. No animosity, I promise :)

Hey look Law Fairy- I definitly and totally understand. In fact, I will fully admit I am the queen of getting huffy. In fact, half the time that is when I write comments that piss people off. I get infuriated and then write something that is almost always taken out of context. I'll also be the first to admit I need to work on it:)

Also, while I think it was pedantic as well, you are a lawyer and really, its pretty much your job to be a stickler for being precise. My dad is a lawyer, and I am entirely used to having to explain myself more clearly bc he hones in on the tiniest detail. It's probably why you are a fabulous lawyer, and I could never be one:)

To be honest, the southerner comment was also me being huffy, bc I have had such bad experiences and totally horrified me, that I made that comment without thinking first. Its also why I think other opinions would be appreciated on that subject? anybody...bueller?

squip (not squib, sorry) & katie,

I will try to explain what I meant about the South being "more open." I am not talking about open vs. closed racism (I am not sure what that would mean either), I am talking about cultural differences in how people communicate and how that impacts the way we perceive each other.

You have noted that you are more AWARE of racism when you go to "the South" and so you think it's more prevalent there. I think you both know that you will find racism and stupidity everywhere. HOWEVER, in the South, it is normal to share your life story and personal beliefs w/ total strangers - regardless of whether those life stories or personal beliefs are in the norm.

In other words, anywhere you go, the person next to you in line at the supermarket may be a racist bonehead. But in the South, they will TALK to you openly about who they are & what they think, and so if you are from somewhere else, you walk away thinking "Wow, people are so racist here." But a similar person may be next to you somewhere else, and depending upon regional culture, they may say "Hello," say nothing, or refuse to make eye-contact.

I live in "the west" now and it takes YEARS to learn things about people that take about 30 minutes to learn in the South.
Not making any judgement calls - this is just my experience of regional culture.

As for racially motivated violence, I don't have any stats, but I am pretty sure that's not unique to the South. I am not even sure it's more common (L.A and New York cops come to mind). Anyway, it happens where I live now too. It makes me cry, regardless.

I won't bite anyone's head off. Heads are all hairy & taste bad.

AND as a total aside, damn that donna darko is funny!

ok i see what you mean tink. and i am glad yu find heads unappealing to eat bc i quite like mine! I do agree that racism is everywhere, and no matter where it happens it is disgusting. but from a sheer historical perspective, it was the north that voted to end slavery, its the north with the most liberal abortion laws, its the north who doesnt fly the confederate flag, and its the north that had lynchings end far before the south. Now, clearly, not everyone in the south is racist, so dont take it that way, but i mean, stereotypes do exist for a reason in this case. i mean, ill be the first to admit new yorkers are not as friendly as others in different parts of our country.

katie - Ya damn Yankees! (kidding)I don't know about those more liberal abortion laws. When you are in South Carolina, South Dakota and Utah = the NORTH! ; ) We could go on and on about the Southern thing. If you want to, we can do that off-line...but I have to warn, you I'll be slow about it, not because I am Southern, but because I shouldn't even be taking the time to write this now.

Also, I have to say something about where I think The Law Fairy was coming from; we just need to be more supportive of each other, in general. Sisterhood isn't inherent, but it can be created.

I gots to work now...

So does anyone have any thoughts on what this movie's effects might be on the image of feminism within the general public?

Do you think the public is smart enough to catch on to the propaganda and spot the misdirection, or do you think they will swallow it whole?

I don't think anyone will watch it. Quite frankly because people know it's so out there in the stupid.

Ken, I think that anyone who would willingly watch this movie already has their mind made up about feminism anyway. Either they're feminists making fun of it, or they're anti-feminists saying "Yep, this is exactly what they want us to have, abortions all the time!"

I think the people that will watch it will be the fundamentalists and Quiverfulls that are already set in their ways, anyway. It shouldn't have a massive effect, unless they're going to package it with a girl in a bikini on the cover at Blockbuster, and call it "Monstrous Babe Regiment: The Catfight" in which case a lot of people might rent it. :)

Just to throw my 2c into the conversation about the south and racism --

I lived in New Orleans until I was in high school, and my whole extended family is spread out between northern Georgia and North Carolina. When I moved, it was to The North, namely Pittsburgh, and I got to observe some differences first-hand that I wasn't really expecting. The first thing that really stuck out to me was that, seriously, there were almost no visible black people in Pittsburgh, at least not compared to the levels I had previously been used to. Over the years I made a lot of other personal observations that led me to conclude the following: Racism definitely exists in both the north and the south, but there's a serious difference in what kind of racisms they are. Southern racism is generally typified by particular feelings of racial superiority, but Northern racism is almost straight up xenophobia. It's hard to say which one is more dangerous or scary. (I can talk about this at more length if anyone wants to hear it, email me at idiolet@gmail.com)

For some less anecdotal data that I've always found interesting, here's a study called "Racial Segregation in U.S. Metropolitan Areas and Cities, 1990-2000" www.frey-demographer.org/reports/rr05-573.pdf (sorry about the .pdf format). Here's some key points relevant to this conversation:

(from pg 11) -- "Past regional differences in Black-White segregation continue to be evident in 2000. That is, high
average levels of Black-White segregation (above 60) are shown for metropolitan areas in the Northeast
and Midwest. The average Southern metropolitan area has an dissimilarity index of 58.8 and, as in the
past, Western metropolitan areas showed lowest average levels, at 46.7 in 2000"

"Led by Gary, Indiana, with a segregation level of 87.5,
most of these highly segregated areas are located in the industrial Midwest and urban Northeast,
including places which have attracted many Black migrants to factory jobs during the mid-twentieth
century. Detroit, New York, Milwaukee, Chicago, Newark, and Flint all display dissimilarity levels above
80, and close behind Buffalo and Cleveland at 79. A few Non-North metropolitan areas appear on this
most segregated list of metropolitan areas: Birmingham and Gaston, AL, both Old South metropolitan
areas with substantial Black populations. "

(from pg. 12) "18 [out of 36
metropolitan areas with Black populations greater than 200,000], mostly in the Northeast and Midwest, still show
a segregation level where more than seven out of ten Blacks would have to move to be distributed in the
same way that Whites are."

On the other hand, there's some discussion of the fact that many "Old South" cities' levels of segregation seem to be stagnating or on the increase, so it's not as if there isn't a problem there.

Gah, sorry, that email address is a typo. My real email address is idiolect@gmail.com.

And here's a much quicker and easier non-.pdf article I just found on pretty much the same thing (and perhaps more recent?) -- http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2002/12/16/story3.html?page=1

Re segregation: I live in Jackson, Mississippi, which is 73% African-American.

I routinely hear from wealthy community leaders of all races that "everybody" has moved to Madison, which has 1/15th the population and is about 90% white, a city where the buildings are color coordinated by law and you can get a three-month prison sentence for parking on the curb (which discourages "the wrong element" from showing up).

There is obviously something very wrong and very interesting about this definition of "everybody."

Cheers,

TH

It angers me to no end that someone would say that feminists "hate children". Look at social workers... the vast majority of them are feminist and are doing their job "for the children"
Also, the people who hate children are the ones in Darfur turning 8 year olds into soldiers. Why don't these people get fired up over something bigger than themselves and start protesting the atrocities in Darfur instead of bitching that other women are slutty?

*snort*

You lost me at "abortion industry."

Funny how the film is by men.games