I disagree with you about the veil to be honest. The niqab, hija, burka, and other forms of covering are directly related to misogyny, patriarchy and sexism. They are violence against women in themselves, and anybody that has spent time in countries where women must be veiled will tell you that women in the full veil are manhandled and disrespected and treated with far more contempt than unveiled women ever would be because the niqab dehumanises them.

The journalist joan Smith described walking through Afghanistan and seeing women thrown out of any man's way as they walked the streets. I think it is sisturbing that at a time when women in Iran and other Islamic theocracies are fightiong against the veil those of us that are free to wear what we want should defend the veil in any way.

Another article here on a similar note:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/0,,1924102,00.html

Unrelated but this article on asylum to women who face female circumcision is great news....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/0,,1925728,00.html

I'm not defending 'the veil' but I don't understand how a society can almost require makeup and pantyhose--things that say that men should have the chance to look at women but they shouldn't have to look at women the way women really look, but in a more attractive form--but condemn the veil.

I've never felt required to wear makeup or tights. I wore it sometimes as a teenager to look older and in my early twenties to express myself, but rarely wear it now. I think that something that is so profitable an industry as the beauty industry is, makes it much harder to condemn.

I was flipping channels this morning and stumbled onto EWTN, an apparently Christian channel where a man and an old woman were mourning the lack of proper "modesty" and "dignity" of modern women and how they missed "the veil" (I don't think they meant the Muslim one in this instance, but I'm not familiar enough with the varied branches of Christianity to know what sect has/had women wearing veils). The man stated that some people think the veil is "insulting" but how it's really respectful, not insulting, because women's bodies are sacred. The woman even stated that when women wear miniskirts they're "inviting harassment."
Caused a lot of eyerolling from me, because of course the subtext is that men have asolutely no control over their sexual urges, and thus aren't responsible for their actions--if they see a woman and become aroused, they have to act on it, and it's clearly the woman's fault for arousing them in the first place.
Naturally if this is your philosophy, you want to minimize the chances that a strange man will suffer an uncontrollable sexual urge (which he has to act on, remember) while looking at your wife (aka your property) by covering her the hell up.
But really, it's all about respecting women's "sacred" bodies, honest!

Anyway, my point is it's not just the Muslims who think this way. If a woman chooses to wear a veil, I won't tell her she can't--but I will suggest she think seriously about the underlying reasons why her religion requires it, and what it implies about how women should be perceived and treated.

Liz -
I've never heard of a woman in the US being stoned for failing to wear stockings or makeup, so I'm not sure yours is a fair comparison.
However it is a close cousin in the sexism family, and worth considering for that reason.

I'm comparing the choice to wear the veil because it is culturally sanctioned with the choice to wear make makeup and pantyhose because they are culturally sanctioned.

Obviously, laws that require either and call for severe punishments are another, but related, topic.

I do not wear a veil (it is not the cultural expection of me) nor do I typically wear makeup or pantyhose (which are culturally expected of me). I used to wear makeup until I came to see that cultural requirement for what it is: misogyny.

Sounds like we're on the same page, then.
Personally I wear makeup to work, mainly to satisfy expectations that I look "professional" (as opposed to "sexy"). Showing up without makeup would (in my mind) be akin to a man showing up at the office unshaven. It's still a cultural expectation, but I don't consider it particularly sexist, as it applies to both men and women.
On my own time, I rarely bother with makeup outside of special dress-up occasions where I want my face to look as "decorative" as my wardrobe--ie a wedding. If people can't deal with the real me, I can't be bothered to deal with them.

I have rejected the idea that makeup is required to make a woman look professional. If that were the case, it would be required of men, too. I never considered the requirement that a man shave equivalent to requiring a woman to wear makeup. But, related to that, I confess that I paint my finger/toenails and I shave my legs when they are going to be visible. I am a victim of my culture after all.

Samhita,

My post on the subject quotes Palestinian artist Leila Shawa's views on the subject. (She has done a series of powerful paintings on the subject of veiling.) One important point she makes is that the modern return of veiling is a manifestation of a political movement, an observation which in my view materially problematizes the characterization of veiling as "cultural" (though obviously it has a cultural component).

Hmmmm ...

"There is no uniform experience and to reduce women to the "veiled" subject ignores individual experiences, feelings and actions."

The problem with this line of reasoning isn't that it's wrong. The problem is that it's trivial.

There is no uniform experience and to reduce women to _________ ignores individual experiences, feelings and actions.

You can plug literally anything into that gap and the sentence becomes true. Taken to the extreme your argument can be used to excuse the inexcusable. I'm sure there were women in Imperial China for whom foot-binding was 'God's will', or 'an expression of identity' or some-such.

Each woman's experiences and attitudes were interesting. I came away from the piece though, struck by the variety of ways in which coercion and rebellion played a part in all their stories: coercion through fear (of God, of men), coercion through social reward.

Saying that the return of the veil is a political statement sounds like a return to the traditional notions of political Islam in the name of anti-imperialism. There has been much of this in Britian with the alliance between the totalitarian left and the Islamist movement. I am far more interested in women like Rawa, Maryam Namazie, Ayaan Hirsi Ali et al, who have lived under Islam (and in the case of Rawa still do), and who try to explain that Islam is based on the complete subjugation of women, and their inferior status as individuals. This is seen in sharia law, and in all of the political movements connected with Islam, from Hamas to the Muslim Council of Britain. There are women in the Muslim community here and abroad that need solidarity in their struggles against arranged/forced marriage, 'honour' crimes, FGM, and the general limiting of their choices, and we do not help them by going down the terrible and mistaken road of cultural relativism. Values are either universal or they're non-existent.

Incidentally, I do not agree for a second that women are being commodified or belittled by the existence of cosmetics and fashion. And nor are men.

I am with Liz on makeup. I don’t see how make a woman look professional. And it is absolutely not equivalent to shaving:
Men shaving their face (20 minutes per weak)= Women wearing makeup + shaving legs+ shaving armpits + trimming eyebrows etc. + wearing high heels (How many hours per weak?).
I like to occasionally paint my nails and wear makeup too. I find it to be fun, when I feel like doing it. But if I felt like it was required of me that would only piss me off and make me hate it.

As for the veil, I’ll leave that discussion to the smart people here who have never lived in an Islamic country, were never required to wear any form of Hijab but clearly know everything about it.

uh, i know i cant speak for anyone else but i know of no women (myself included) that shave and tweeze everyday. not even armpits. i would think all it would do was irritate your skin. and how long does it take to do makeup?! sheesh it takes me like 5 min. i would much rather do makeup than shave my face, something that many guys have told me too (shaving your face is apparently very unpleasant, as id imagined)

as for the veil, i personally find it to be a symbol of misogyny. but i really hate the idea of yelling at these women to see the error of their ways. if they are uncomfortable with it, i wish they could have the choice not to wear it. but for the people that want to, well, let em wear it. i dont want to go the route of the fundamentalist christian (ick)

oops i meant to put "error of their ways" in qoutations

You know, neither the hijab nor the niqab are for me. And so long as a woman is forced to wear either, it's not for her. But whatever the reasons behind a woman wearing it, if she chooses of her own desire to wear it, then I will defend her right to do so. I've worn hijab in solidarity with my co-worker who feared discrimination. I've worn hijab on cold winter mornings (it's earmuffs and a scarf!). I've worn hijab when I was invited to mosque to share & learn about my friend's religion. My thoughts on the subject are mostly that I can't figure out how they keep the @#$% things on (it takes talent to wear them, girls). And that it should be up to the woman under the hijab. Not her father, husband, son, or other male authority. Not her mother. The woman herself.

Shaving is only unpleasant if you're doing it so vigorously (or with such an inferior razor) that you're taking off a layer of skin with every stroke. Fancy shaving cream isn't going to prevent that. It's also possible to shave too frequently, because in order to get really short hairs, you pretty much have to dig down on them really hard.

Personally, I feel clean and invigorated after I'm done shaving. I don't do it any more than every two or three days unless I absolutely have to, though.

A lot of this discussion seems to parallel how people think feminists view stay-at-home moms. There is a perception (although, a mostly false one) that feminists hate stay at home moms and feel that they are being repressed and weak and bowing to the system. But in reality anyone on this site would say that women should have the right to be stay at home moms if they choose to be. We just promote women being able to choose their own path.

Same goes (or should go) for the veil... we may not like the veil, or what it stands for but we shouldn't alienate the women who chose to wear it because they feel it is right...
We should talk to them about whether or not it's something they really want, we should discuss the societal implications of what it means and the problems it causes and the misogyny behind it, but we need to be extra careful not to alienate those women whom we are trying to help. We need to avoid being paternalistic to people just because we have a different value system, or we end up being the imperialist american asshats that much of the world dislikes.

I think it's important to distinguish three things.

First - there is 'the veil' (or hajib or burqa) as clothing choice. As clothing options, I think they're simply silly: layers of heavy, dark clothing are utterly unsuited to the climate, covering your face makes interaction difficult, etc.

Second - there is the 'veil' as metaphor. The veil signifies a woman's affiliation with a cultural context, and there are many features of that culture which are deeply misogynistic: women are forbidden to drive, move about freely, vote, drive, etc. Thinking people can't help but oppose these cultural memes. They're unjust.

But third - there is the 'wearing of the veil' as an act. And for all the same reasons I find the culture of the veil offensive, I find the suggestion that anyone 'may not' wear something or do something offensive. Freedom of personal choice is something we diminish at our own expense - and the case for the principle needs to be pretty darn overwhelming to get my support.

dan-

my boyfreind would love it if that were true for him! he has sensitive skin and acts as if shaving is the end of the world (yet does it almost daily, even thought i tell him he looks fine without). i also always wondered about guys with bad acne, i would imagine shaveing would be really difficult.

ok thats it im done posting since its off topic. just wanted to get that lil bit in there though

I think it is interesting to note that the iraqi woman is uncomfortable with the veil. Before Saddam was overthrown, Iraqi women lived more like western women then other middle eastern country because Saddam's regime was secular. They held jobs, did not veil, etc. etc. Around the time the war was brewing, President Bush gave a speech where he listed as one of his reasons for "freeing" Iraq was to help free the women. One woman even wrote into my local paper condemning young women for protesting the war "in their short skirts and half tops" because of how "oppressed" Iraqi women were. I am not suggesting that Saddam was some lovable creature who defended women's rights, I am just pointing out American's general ignorance of Middle Eastern affairs when one of the supposedly valid reasons for starting the war was to "free" women who had more rights then women in some of the countries that are our allies, ie Saudia Arabia.

"I don't trust men, and women should protect themselves."

This seems like a complete non sequitor from the Syrian student. The rest of that paragraph is about piety and submission to what she understands to be God's will. And then, this sentence. Why? What does it mean? It seems more appropriate for talking about why women should carry guns, not wear veils. Is wearing the veil a form of self-protection? In what way? I've read a lot of comments from people who've seen veiled women getting harrassed on the street anyway.

"But in reality anyone on this site would say that women should have the right to be stay at home moms if they choose to be. We just promote women being able to choose their own path."

While I do agree there are parallels between the veil discussion and the stay-at-home mom issue, I think one of the most important parallels is that actions get misleadingly labeled as "choices" when there is little "choice" to be had. I'm not advocating for targeting or alienating those who make said "choices," but let's not pretend that they are made from a position of power and privilege, or even equality. They are often actions taken under duress, to avoid recrimination, or--as one commentor noted--actions that are, in reality, coercive, or reflect coercive systems that have indoctrinated people living within them. Oppressive systems are truly talented at getting individuals to internalize certain values and self-perceptions. If women TRULY had the power to choose, it would not always BE the woman forced into a position of "choosing" between working and staying home. It's a false "choice." Because if the political, economic and cultural systems were organized in a way that supported family life, recognized men and women as equals, and did not perpetuate gender sterotypes that maintain the status quo, both men and women would grapple equally with childcare roles and responsibilities. It would not just be the woman's problem.

Hmm. I have strong feelings on the issue of veiling (and I'm not even Muslim). I don't think it is appropriate to say that the hijab, niquab, etc. are particularly dehumnanizing/demeaning to women. ANYTHING forced upon a woman, or any person for that matter, against there will is potentially dehumanizing. To me, "the veil" is not too different than make-up, bras, and shirts. Even in the west women must cover more than men. Yes, we wear mini skirts and revealing tops, but we do NOT have the option to walk around our neighborhoods topless on a warm day. I've always thought that particular social restraint to be silly and arbitrary. I'm flat-chested. My breasts are no larger than a mildly chubby man's. Why may he wash his car with shorts and nothing else on? Conversly, I would like to see the veil become a more common "accessory." I think women are judged by their appearance the world over. I have to wear make-up and have perfect hair in order to come to work. I may not be required to dress "sexily," but my clothes definiately need to be flattering. I can't wear baggy pants and shirts to my office job. Some days I don't want to face all of this. I would like to be able to don an hijab occasionally, if only to escape the pressures of looking "pretty" for a day. Not to say that women in hijabs (and the like) are not attractive.

I don't think we should judge women who dress this way. Yes, it is unfair that women are driven to cover themselves in ways men do not. But most of us dress in gender-specific ways. Tribal women who do not wear shirts might view the compulsory covering of our breasts as strange.

Hmm. I have strong feelings on the issue of veiling (and I'm not even Muslim). I don't think it is appropriate to say that the hijab, niquab, etc. are particularly dehumnanizing/demeaning to women. ANYTHING forced upon a woman, or any person for that matter, against there will is potentially dehumanizing. To me, "the veil" is not too different than make-up, bras, and shirts. Even in the west women must cover more than men. Yes, we wear mini skirts and revealing tops, but we do NOT have the option to walk around our neighborhoods topless on a warm day. I've always thought that particular social restraint to be silly and arbitrary. I'm flat-chested. My breasts are no larger than a mildly chubby man's. Why may he wash his car with shorts and nothing else on? Conversly, I would like to see the veil become a more common "accessory." I think women are judged by their appearance the world over. I have to wear make-up and have perfect hair in order to come to work. I may not be required to dress "sexily," but my clothes definiately need to be flattering. I can't wear baggy pants and shirts to my office job. Some days I don't want to face all of this. I would like to be able to don an hijab occasionally, if only to escape the pressures of looking "pretty" for a day. Not to say that women in hijabs (and the like) are not attractive.

I don't think we should judge women who dress this way. Yes, it is unfair that women are driven to cover themselves in ways men do not. But most of us dress in gender-specific ways. Tribal women who do not wear shirts might view the compulsory covering of our breasts as strange.

"Even in the west women must cover more than men."

Not everywhere in the west. In Ontario and Quebec, the courts struck down the laws that made women going topless in public illegal. The same is true for many European countries. Don't confuse "USA" with "the west".

The point I was trying to make with the comparison between stay-at-home moms and the veil has less to do with women in countries in which veils are forced upon them, and more to do with stories like the "Lose the veil or lose your job" post from a few days ago. That story takes place in the UK and it seems ridiculous to punish a muslim woman in the UK for choosing to wear a veil.
My older sister is a stay-at-home mom because she wants to be. her and her husband sat down and decided that they wanted kids and that she wanted to stay home instead of getting a babysitter. granted, she's been influenced by society her whole life to want to be a mommy, but she still made a conscious choice to do so...
Which is what is sounds like this woman in the UK did... and for which she may be getting fired.

I think it is worth bearing in mind the pressures tha women are under from their old-fashioned, patriarchal communities and their pre-Medieval religious superstition. Muslim women women keep saying that it is their 'choice' or 'decision' to wear the veil. Well, they would, wouldn't they? What do people expect them to say? But the truth is they are obeying the rules laid down by the faith system they were indoctrinated and socialised into. They face being estranged from their family and community if they do not cover up - which, for many women brought up in a close-knit community is an intimidating and daunting thought.

I do not advocate forcing women to abandon their religious symbols, I beleive in winning the argument. However, I also believe in showing solidarity with all of those in the Islamic world and Muslim community that are trying to break free from their religion.

Yeah, pantyhose and make-up are just like a burqua!
Last I heard it did not say in the Bible to always don a shade of lipstick, and pantyhose as dictated by Chanel, or Mac.
Sojourner,
If you have lived in an Islamic country before then you should surely know of the oppression, and subjegation entailed in that 'society.' In muslim countries, feminism has not even been initiated, nor even awakened! It was the cornerstone of the islamic feminists when they came back from a womens conference in Rome, and after departing from the train station Huda Shaawari threw off her veil, and after seeing it, the other women joined in and tossed theirs off too. Now they don it on again?

I think this is an obvious worry for Europe, if these women are reverting back to these oppressive ways Europe holds every right to gaurd their enlightened ways. If the women aren't, or can't speak up-they have a right to boycott these 'immigrants.'They already went through their medeival era, they don't need to go back.

And the point I was trying to make, Ahlana, with my post on stay-at-home-mom "choice" / veil "choice" parallels, is that cultural and economic practices can be coercive and can reinforce power disparities even when they are not "forced" upon someone by law. When groups lack power, it's difficult to say they are truly "freely" engaging in something, at least from my perspective. Oppression comes in many nuanced forms, and as I said, it can often fool us into thinking we are making an empowered "choice". Why, for example, were the options your sister had to choose between only "hire a babysitter" or "stay home" herself? It's hard to step back and imagine other possibilities when we are culturally conditioned to accept the status quo as the only possible reality, but we have to start thinking outside these boxes.

I think this is an obvious worry for Europe, if these women are reverting back to these oppressive ways Europe holds every right to gaurd their enlightened ways.

And you don't even use the word "enlightened" ironically.

You don't see many totally veiled women in NY, but when I do see them, I feel free to stare. They have invited my stare by their abherant behavior. The veil does not belong in Western society. Here, only bad people hide their faces. Are you a bad person? No? Then let us see your face, that's all. It is almost Halloween, the only day of the year when it's ok to cover your face in public. I think that women who live in the west but insist on this custom are being purposely militant and agressive and "in your face" despite the claims of piety.

Alon-I'm sure you think a women should be covered at all times, and have no right to any freedoms because your a man, given privelages by this website, as well as favoritism by so-called feminists.
Are you openly insulting Europeans Alon?
Yes, there all hell of alot more enlightened than the Middle East. I'm sure it hurts your convenient view of whites as the victimizers, and everyone else as the victims, but seriously-grow up.

I agree with Trilby, and Charity-it doesn't take a genius to see that these womens views are seriously hindered by the culture they live in.

You make no sense.

Just look at whats happening in Mogadishu somalia-like I said wherever muslim 'religion' is, so is serious oppression. These women can't go swimming-right now they fear an uprising of a Taliban-style regime. Once again-as in the original taliban-where are the muslim 'feminists' talking about this. Face it, muslim women can't be trusted to give us all a 'heads up' on serious oppression that concerns womenkind. Only the non-aligned can-and I most certainly wouldn't expect to know about this from this website, what with all their denial and PC subversion.Its not going to be muslim women who fight off their oppression. The initial feminism that was started in the middle east was inspired by people in the west-it never was nurtured there. We shouldn't depend on the very limited information we garner from these limited resources-and by the people who call themselves feminists to tell us whats really going on.

There's way too much 'not right' in this comment thread. But let's see if I can make a few bare points.

1) Correlation does not equal causation. The burqa, hijab, and veil itself are not oppressive; the culture mandating that women wear these items is oppressive.

2) The people in the best position to counter the patriarchal oppression in Islam are practicers of Islam.

3) The best way to support a woman's choice to wear what she wants or to do as she chooses is not to ask questions that undermine her decision.

4) It's good that we support women in fighting patriarchy in all its forms, but who the hell are we to tell a free-thinking woman what she should wear? How does that make us any better than the oppressive forces she is trying to escape?

5) It's significant that some of us are members of cultures forcing women to remove their veils -- the same oppressive mandate working in reverse and telling women what to do with their bodies to conform to a cultural normative condition.

I think biased is femInist/alonisidiot. :D

Oh my God...skyanide
I am not that whipped not to question other womens choices. I am part of the womenrace in the world.
I think its been said-these women are NOT free. They have never gone outside what men tell them. To have other opinions outside of the muslim thought bubble is beneficial as that can help her see other viewpoints to incorporate into her own lifestyle.
Thank you Donna, you have finally realized you think I'm an idiot. That means you are wordless, understanding none of your spin has a