Not to be totally sexist, but when I was in high school I played a lot of sports... and the girls' teams always seemed much more physically aggressive than the boys'. Maybe it was because our girls' teams were actually good while the boys lost every game. But yeah... that is an incredibly stupid article. And kudos to those three guys in the league--good for them for having the guts to join, despite being a minority in the sport.

I was looking to see if someone signed the article - maybe Lukegord's angry parent or something - but it seems to be an formal paper editorial.

Beyond that: "gods of school sports?" Seriously?

"PC"?

Isn't "PC" a relic from the nineties? I mean, the only people who *ever* use the term "PC" anymore are people saying it's destroying society. Seems to me like a straw man. Does anyone even have a definition of it anymore? I don't think I've heard an argument in favor of it for a good decade or so.

As for the broken finger, well, if she doesn't want a broken finger why the hell is she playing sports? For that matter, why's she walking around outdoors? When I was in high school one time I was minding my own business and one of my guy friends yells for me to look up -- he was throwing a football at me to catch. Problem is, he didn't yell soon enough and as I raised my hand up to deflect it, it hit my ring finger at a bad angle. And it hurt like a MOTHERFUCKER. I was pissed, too, because I was a pianist. You know, we need our fingers and all.

Fortunately, there was no permanent damage. And I didn't even complain that he shouldn't have thrown the ball at me because I'm a girl. But, you know, I'm not silly and unrealistic about my assessment of life's risks and all.

Wow, that's pretty outrageous. The author clearly has a chip on their shoulder and was just looking for a target.

(you broke your finger during sex!?)

yeah, don't ask. it wasn't as bad as it sounds.

I broke a finger playing football in middle school. And there was a girl on the team. QED.

Just to clarify -- there is no indication in the editorial that the girl herself is complaining about having to play with a guy. It just sounded to me like she was describing what happened.

Also, is it really true that the editorial claims that the guy didn't break any rules of field hockey when he threw the girl to the ground? I have never played field hockey but that just doesn't sound right to me.

Uh I meant,

is it really true AS the editorial claims that the guy didn't break any rules of field hockey when he threw the girl to the ground? I have never played field hockey but that just doesn't sound right to me.

HF: my reading isn't that the writer was concerned about the rules of what constitutes a foul in hockey, but the rules that allow men to play on 'women's' teams. That's what she was worried about being allowed to do. Even if it's a foul he shouldn't have had the chance to commit it.

I'm surprised at the line Jessica's taken. Well not that much, I can see why I can see the the word PC and the hint of rightwingness set her off. But lots of feminists have opposed ending sex discrimination in sport on the grounds that men are physically stronger and will beat women, exclude women by taking their places, and women will be more likely to get injured.

And I'm not sure the writer is opposed to 'co-ed sports' per se, but rather a law allowing people of the opposite sex to play on single sex teams. It's one thing for Jill to enter a co-ed sport and get hurt, it's another for her to enter a single-sex sport - the law to force it to become co-ed - and for her to get hurt.

My high school sports of choice have always tended toward the bone-breaking...and they were always co-ed: skiing, rock-climbing (I suppose kayaking has more chance of drowning), and indoor rugby. Now I do judo & if someone wrote an editorial everytime someone in our dojo broke something, we wouldn't have time to spar, we'd be too busy reading. Sports = occasional danger. End of story, it doesn't matter whether it's girl sports or boy sports or both.

Shit, I broke a finger during sex once. Maybe that shouldn't be co-ed either.

AhHAHAHAhahahaaaa!! Please send that as a letter to the editor on that story. It's perfect!

What about when girl's play girls and break digits? I broke my toe once during a mad game of kick ball (someone collided with me and put all her weight on my left toe) so does that mean girl's are just too fragile to play sports period? What about boy's football where there's the chance of permanent damage? Should they not play period? Man.

And I know two friends who broke a window during sex. :)

What about when girl's play girls and break digits? I broke my toe once during a mad game of kick ball (someone collided with me and put all her weight on my left toe) so does that mean girl's are just too fragile to play sports period? What about boy's football where there's the chance of permanent damage? Should they not play period? Man.

Not to turn this into Chasing Amy, but I know two friends who broke a window during sex. :)

If they're gonna let men play on women's teams, what about the women who will be left off the teams to make room for the men? I'd like to see what the women who got cut from the teams to make room for them have to say about it.

If we're going to let men join women's teams, and let women join men's teams, why not just have one team for both men and women?

HA! The Eagle-Tribune was my local paper growing up...they *would* run an editorial like that.

My father still rants to me about some of the stuff they're publishing in that "republican rag" :)

I remember hearing this same debate a few years ago when a female Olympic downhill skier died. Commentators were questioning whether women should be allowed to compete in downhill skiing. Isn't it funny that they don't make the same statements when a man gets killed or injured while participating in a dangerous sport.

Ultra, kickball is awesome! I had to retire after 2 years when my health insurance ran out. i mean, one guy on the league broke a LEG this year...

Sure, Title IX made a HUGE difference. This is why when I leave the comfort of Brooklyn I have to be subjected to a half hour of boys'

I agree with TLF.
Whenever I see nonironic use of the term PC, I gag.

It's so fake. Anyone can say "Look at me! I'm an individual and I don't bend over to be politically correct. PC, as everyone knows, is a dictate, and because I ignore it, I must be right! Women a property. Oh! I'm not sexist I'm just not PC...you wouldn't understand."
GAH!
So yeah, PC is an excuse. It doesn't exist.

I think the main argument used by those who oppose co-ed sports is that females will get hurt and somehow get hurt worse than males in all instances and therefor co-ed sports is either dangerous for females or sets up males for (lawsuits/hurt feelings/"PC").
It doesn't make any sense.

I don't see how it's any different from racial segregation.

PC = Plain Courtesy

"I think the main argument used by those who oppose co-ed sports is that females will get hurt and somehow get hurt worse than males in all instances and therefor co-ed sports is either dangerous for females or sets up males for (lawsuits/hurt feelings/"PC")."

Perhaps for some, but not for me. I have nothing against co-ed sports, but I do have a problem with women playing on men's teams, or vice versa. I explained it in my earlier comment.

Any thoughts?

RM, I'm with you on this one -- if they're going to let men join women's teams, they need to enlist women in comparable numbers for the men's teams. And really at that point I don't see the point of separate teams. I'd favor making all teams co-ed, as long as the schools worked to ensure that none of the teams were dominated by men simply because coaches had the preconceived notion that men were "better" (which from what I understand is more often the reason women don't make the teams, or are left on the bench during games, than being traceable to any actual serious difference in skill).

But lots of feminists have opposed ending sex discrimination in sport on the grounds that men are physically stronger and will beat women, exclude women by taking their places, and women will be more likely to get injured.

And segregation doesn't exclude women? As it is women don't even have a chance to compete against the "best" (hah) athletes. Yes, if you have the wrong body type you will not be competitive against the best athletes in your sport, but that will always be true. Segregation gives space to the assumption that it is necessarily women that are not able to compete. Do "lots of" feminists really share that assumption?

I too was puzzled by the point of the article. Is the author trying to suggest that but for the men on the team, the girl would never have been injured?

Jesus, Sue Bird's had her nose broken probably half a dozen times while playing basketball, all by quite female elbows.

(As an aside, although I played regular hockey as a kid I really wanted to play field hockey. My folks wouldn't let me because it was a "girls" sport. Same reason my dad refused to let me take dance. Not that those incidents scarred me for life or anything, but I wish more folks would see how much feminism can men, too.)

and yeah, I noticed I called the males on the team "men" and called the females "girls." I just noticed a little too late.

I can assure you it was cause for a moment of introspection.

;)

What was the line in the article about "giving girls the oppurtunity - if they want it - to play"? They never say that shit about the guys. Why is it assumed that guys are definitely into sports and girls "may" be interested? That always pissed me off.

TLF - PC is a computer that isn't a Mac.

Jessica - "yeah, don't ask. it wasn't as bad as it sounds."
I promise I don't want to hear the story, but I hope you come up with something better than that with whomever you do tell it to. Afterall, this is apparently the feminist sex site. You have a reputation to uphold. :)

Women's sports are needed because despite Title IX, many of us grew up without the same opportunities as men did. Sure, we had the same number of sports for girls and boys as required by law, but the girls got inferior facilities and often spent as much time on a bus to a faraway field as we did at practice. Also, cheerleading counted as a sport for girls, and back when I was in school, it wasn't the tumbling-type athletic activity it is today. It was yelling and wearing short skirts with some jumping in place and a few dance moves thrown in for good measure.

There are also sports in which the average woman physically cannot compete with the average man and should still be able to compete against her peers. There is no rule keeping women out of the NHL and in fact a decade or so ago, the general manager of one of the teams had a female goalie play in an exhibition game as a publicity stunt. The same goalie has played high-level men's hockey but not in the NHL, and a few other women have also played men's professional hockey in Europe. For the most part, though, a 5'6", 140 pound woman has to use a different skill set to play the same game than a 6'3", 230 pound man. As a recreational ice hockey player myself, I mostly play with women but I've played on a few coed teams here and there (which usually means 13 men and one or two women), and the difference is night and day. While there are lots of those 5'6", 135 pound women who are just better athletes and more skilled than I am, I can keep up and be effective in those games. When playing with men, only a superior or much larger than average female player is going to be able to have much effect.

Basketball would be similar. The occasional 6'6" woman might be able to compete, but most tall women are more like 5'10", which is average for a man. The 5'6" woman might be able to be a point guard and she does have that advantage of being able to use her hips to box out, but overall she's going to do better playing with women then men who play the game differently due to different body structure. I suppose if basketball were split into strata by height instead of gender it might work: a league for 6'6" and up, one for 6'2" to 6'6", one for 5'10 to 6'2"...

I'm sure there are sports in which body structure doesn't matter so much. However, I'm still not in favor of the one team idea. I'm in favor of giving both kids and adults as many opportunities to play as possible, and giving a school an excuse to have just one basketball team isn't on my list of good ideas. If I ran the world, I wouldn't have just varsity and JV, but I'd have an A, B, C, D, etc. squad until every kid who wanted to play basketball had a team and could represent their school at their ability, or at least play in intramural leagues if not against other schools. I think it's ridiculous that only 24 girls and 24 boys in an entire high school of 1200 kids get to play basketball. Not all communities have rec leagues. We complain that kids don't get enough exercise, and then tell them that if they don't meet a certain standard, they don't get to play at all.

The problem with mixing males and females in sports is that it sends a mixed message. On the one hand, we're telling them "You're all the same." Yet on the other, we have the Violence Against Women Act, which clearly criminalizes the same actions the boys do on the field -- and then some!

Any smaller-framed guy who plays sports against men knows that men can be insanely aggressive -- even when the game is supposedly non-contact. To throw women into this is asking for trouble. It's only a matter of time till someone gets really hurt and the Violence Against Women Act is used to show some hapless male "went too far."

Also, when people play sports together there is an atmosphere of crossed-boundaries that arises -- bodies get mashed, touched, grabbed, etc. When guys play together, all this is not thought of as anything important. But when a man touches or grabs a woman's body a whole 'nother dynamic is put in play. So right there, we're opening to door to sex harrassment trouble. Plus, this casualness extends to off-field behavior between boys (ever see jocks grab each other?); if it extends to girls both sexes may suffer.

While many of us think "Here's what would have worked for me," it may behoove us to think "What kind of world do we want to bring our kids into?"

well, NYT, i sure wouldnt want to bring my kids up in a segregated one. when i was little my best friend was a boy, and i played sports with guys and girls...i think your under estimating girls and guys in saying if someone bumps into someone theres going to be a sexual harrassment suit...and also both girls and guys grab/hug/whatever each other after a game, they all know what there doing and i really dont think theyd see it as a problem

NYT, to me most of your arguments are good ones for having sports be coed. Mixing boys and girls together takes away a lot of the ideas that men and women are from different planets and cannot understand each other. Women aren't going to break if they collide with men playing soccer or sliding into third base. It's about opportunity and the skill set called upon by the usual body size of the sex, not social ideas of what a woman should or shouldn't be able to do.

The article is stupid becuase it tries to make playing with guys in sports harsh. Sometimes it is, but if there was co-ed sports a lot of women would learn to be more fierce. I don't mean this in a sexist manner, but co-ed sports programs would enhance a women's toughness and equalize the playing field. So, what if she broke a finger. It's not like her skull was crushed or, she broke her nose like some althetes go through.

Bear, I'd say PC is a computer, period.

Lately I see it used in a broader context, though. For example, I've seen the word PC used a lot to describe religious correctness (people who blow up abortion clinics are not referred to as religious nuts) and patriotic correctness (hardly anyone refers to Bush as a liar).

Aw crap...it looks like my comment above was cut off. The last sentence was supposed to read, "Sure, Title IX made a HUGE difference. This is why when I leave the comfort of Brooklyn I have to be subjected to a half hour of boys' football on the local news every night."

As Jill Lukegord herself, id just like to clear the air and say first off no an angry parent did not write this article and as for this overly aggressive boy stompin through the FH leauge what is he trying to prove being a member of the saugus hockey team for 4 years and winning MVP of the fieldhockey leauge i think thats a little rediculous. I am not afraid of a broken finger, hell i play 2 other sports as well and a fingers a finger you got 9 more. However, physically going up against a boy for a loose ball its clear a 120 pound girl is gunna get rocked by him,and hurt. Luckily it was only my pinky/knuckle, and believe it or not i was out majority of the season becuase of that, and yeah its still screwed up lookin to this day.

As Jill Lukegord herself, id just like to clear the air and say first off no an angry parent did not write this article and as for this overly aggressive boy stompin through the FH leauge what is he trying to prove being a member of the saugus hockey team for 4 years and winning MVP of the fieldhockey leauge i think thats a little rediculous. I am not afraid of a broken finger, hell i play 2 other sports as well and a fingers a finger you got 9 more. However, physically going up against a boy for a loose ball its clear a 120 pound girl is gunna get rocked by him,and hurt. Luckily it was only my pinky/knuckle, and believe it or not i was out majority of the season becuase of that, and yeah its still screwed up lookin to this day.

While many of us think "Here's what would have worked for me," it may behoove us to think "What kind of world do we want to bring our kids into?" games