There's a lot I want to write about the Clinton lunch, including the concerns about the lack of bloggers of color. I will get to all of it. I promise. But right now I'm super pissed and just wanted to know what people thought of this.
I found a couple of other posts like it--talking about the way I looked--and it was really upsetting on a personal (and political) level. But this thread in particular turned kind of nasty.
You know, I was psyched to be invited to this lunch and was feeling pretty honored. But then things like this remind me that no matter what I do or accomplish, because I'm a young woman all I'm good for is fodder for tacky intern jokes and comments that I don't "represent feminist values" because of the way I posed in a picture.
What's worse is that this comes from other women, other progressives, and other supposed feminists. How are we supposed to move forward as a movement if we're busy bashing each other with this ridiculousness?
UPDATE: Althouse has another post up about Feministing being "one of those blogs that are all about using breasts for extra attention." Yeah. Because we don't write anything but stories on titties all day long.
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oh LORD dont i know about stuff like that. being a fetish model (which really just means soft core artistic nudity and wearing latex, or to me anyway) and being a women who likes wearing far out make up and clothes (which somtimes includes heels, gasp!) i have gotten my fair share of hate from other feminists. funny enough the majority of them that said i couldnt possibly be a feminist were male, and once the female feminists got to know me, we became freinds (happened 3 times!). but some are no diffrent from the far right with there "my way or the highway" attidude and close mindedness
This is absolutely maddening. Jeez, Jess, didn't you get the memo that you have to be UGLY to call yourself a feminist or be taken seriously? Better start shopping at Dress Barn and eating only fried foods if you want some respect.
It's depressing that we seem to get this shit from older women just as often as from men.
Whoah! I'd be pissed too - very pissed. Eeeewch! Maybe eventually one day they will just GROW UP!
don't worry about it too much. they're making themselves look stupid, and you're getting links. you win!
I am feeling faint from a combination of anger, sadness and tired astonishment. We must not slip into this ancient tarpit of suffocating criticism. It is shallow and tells others of the writers unexamined life.
It says nothing about you! It says nothing about your passion, your depth, your dedication to freeing women and men from the imbalance of sexism.
There are people who matter in your life and these empty headed remarks tell you; 1)you are on the right track, 2)the struggle is in full gear and 3)we will never run out of things to do.
I am proud of you and I believe that Bill was lucky to have met you.
I have to say, reading Althouse's original post on the picture, you do stand out. You're dressed less conservatively and appear to be posing (as opposed to standing casually). There is certainly nothing wrong with either, but it is striking in the photo.
As for the more recent post, it's pretty clear you've set off an Althouse hot button issue. She has repeatedly mentioned her distaste for Clinton and her dismay at how women seem to love him despite his infidelity and objectification of woman in inferior roles.
Add to that your classic angry young feminist rhetoric ("How dare you judge me by my looks?") and you've hit another Althouse button.
That said, I don't know that it's fair to razz you about posing in a Clinton photo-op. Some people, when photographed, just pose. They're the ones people always call "photogenic."
I don't especially like Bill Clinton.
I would still pose with Bill Clinton.
But it'd be a much bigger honor for me to pose with Jessica Valenti.
The thread pisses me off, too. There is a line between standing up for one's values and just being nasty. They have SO crossed that line.
Cheers,
TH
Arseh*le's got a problem with you standing at a non-orthogonal angle to the lens. It would be OK if you were facing the camera, with your shoulders forming a "T" with its line-of-sight. Soldiers pose like that. It would be OK if you were in profile, provided you weren't smiling.
No smiling!!
But this forty-five degree business... this, and Darwinism, are the reason that The West has fallen into such limp-wristed desuetude that Islamofascists are emboldened to terror-bomb our fair cities. When they take over and force you to wear a burkha, it'll only be your own fault.
Say, you've got pretty hair!
And I don't see a blooming thing wrong with Jessica's pose in the photo, by the way. I can see how someone might find humor in the fact that the noticeably attractive dark-haired young woman happens to be the one standing next to Bill, given his history, but they carried it about ten notches past anything resembling lighthearted humor.
Cheers,
TH
When I saw the group photo the other day I didn't assume you were posing.. I thought you were standing to the side so as to not block the President.
And don't sweat the ridiculous comments. The internet is 33% porn, 66% flames, and 1% "other."
Regardless of my feelings about Clinton and that all-white photo-op, what happened at the Althouse blog was inexcusable. Jessica, next time you take a picture, make sure you're full-on facing the camera, so we don't get a boobie profile shot, mmkay?
Plenty of other bloggers were posed in the exact same position--creepy John Aravosis (who most certainly would give Bill a bj if it would boost his hits), the older lady with the blazer & glasses, the blonde woman with the black & white dress--but they got a pass.
It angers me most that Ann not only allowed those comments on her blog without even a mild reprimand, but she even took up for them.
"the noticeably" --> "a noticeably." I didn't really look hard at the rest of the photo, so this should not be taken as a commentary on anybody's looks.* Including Jessica's, for that matter.
Cheers,
TH
* I had been told in very harsh terms that it was bad to say anything positive about feminist women's looks. Then I apparently alienated and hurt the feelings of a very prominent and credentialed young professional feminist activist by not joining a chorus of young men describing one of her photos as "sexy." I am learning that this is one of those cases where one should do whatever seems best at the time and apologize if it sounds stupid, rather than working really hard in advance to say the right thing.
I must be really bored or tired to feel compelled to defend the pic, but here goes:
I doubt Jess thought much about posing. It looks like she did the 3/4 turn to fit in with the woman behind you. The group was three deep instead of two at that point and the woman in red is leaning in to be seen.
Ann just started a new thread over there. She seems very proud of herself for what she said. From her condescending attitude toward those who went, I get the impression that she only wants to hear the voices of those she agrees with.
Clinton has his faults and some women would be right to condemn his behavior over the years. But the man understands the media and the electorate on a lever few ever did; and as one of four of living people to be U.S. president, understands the world on a lever most of us can't fathom. I'd have gone to the luncheon in a heartbeat just to hear what he had to say.
Way to go Jessica!
Althouse just posted in defense of Jessica. Good on her.
Re the 3/4 turn: I am most definitely not cute, and I do that automatically whenever anyone pulls out a camera. It just makes for a better picture.
Cheers,
TH
Althouse is an idiot that uses whatever (whoever) she can as an axe to bludgeon her pet causes which are usually all about:
I am a true XXX the other people that claim to be XXX are all wrong.
In this case, XXX is any element of (Democrat, Blogger, Feminist). Throw in a case of the She Really Hates Hillary and you've got 98% of her psyche.
What she has posted is a very small picture -- yet count how many of her commenters are claiming that Clinton was leering at you.
Seems to be that in a group photo it is common for people to pose their bodies so that they face inward.
But I think you are accurate, you needed to slouch and otherwise make sure you didn't stand out when you were POSING WITH THE BIG DOG HIMSELF in the one chance you mayever get.
Check out her comments about Thelma and Loiuse, shot 16 years ago (when Althouse was 41) Feminism dare not change ever! In addition to Feminism not daring to ever ever change, take a look her critique of the mud flaps in Thelma & Louise in the script she links to. THERE IS NO CRITIQUE IN THERE. The word mud flaps appears three times and is used only as an identifier on a truck.
Althouse, really is, pardon the expression, a piece of shit. It is all the more sad that she probably does represent the finest legal minds in our country.
Althouse of course doesn't understand what your chrome mud flap women are doing with their hands.
Christ, Pierpont. I don't agree with Althouse on very much, but that's as nasty and harsh as anything that was said in the Clinton thread.
Peace,
TH
According to someone on Althouse, Tom and I and the rest of the guys on here are just trying to pick up lefty chicks, which Jeesica apparently encourages by dressing like that. We are just a bunch of sex crazed maniacs surfing feministing!
As a former student of Ann Althouse, and a practicing attorney, I assure you that no one considers her among our finest legal minds.
Wow, yeah, now there's a post about how we're boob-obsessed because of the logo (doesn't anyone get irony anymore) and because of two pics on the site that feature shirts with--gasp!--breasts in them. Did folks forget that girls have boobs? This is just too fucking depressing.
Wow. I've just been flamed by Althouse. That's like posing with Bill Clinton!
Cheers,
TH
Did folks forget that girls have boobs?
But isn't that part of what feminism was all about? "Stop objectifiying us. We have minds. We can contribute, too." Right?
Well tRJ, what should we do when showing a tshirt? Strap our breasts down so you remember we have minds?
I still don't see what the big deal would be if you did dress "sexy." Why does it friggin' matter? Are you supposed to live your life based around the futile hope that anti-feminists will look at a photo of you and not judge you as a sex object?
Feminism is supposed to be about empowering women, not simply giving them more convoluted ways to submit to men. Give me a friggin' break, Althouse.
Cheers,
TH
Jessica, don't get me wrong. I have no problem with breasts. In fact, I love them. And I love women who aren't afraid to be smart, strong and tough while still embracing their sexuality.
But there is something odd about advertising tanks that attract attention to the breasts (in both cut and print), when everything else on this site is such rabid feminist thought.
I don't really see how rabid feminist thought is at odds with women wearing tank tops.
Well, obviously.
I think saying that women can't wear tank tops is contrary to feminist thought. I mean, by that logic, the Taliban laws mandating the burqa would be an example of rabid feminism.
Cheers,
TH
I have not kept up with the "feminist movement" or its various waves--I stopped following after Karen DeCrow became NOW President and the radicals took over and expelled the Betty Friedans..(mid 1970s)--I have found this thread and the Althouse thread interesting and I think what I am seeing is a severe generational gap in one's perceptions about what is modern feminism--and why shouldnt that be a normal thing--dont ideas evolve over time?
Perhaps this comment comes a little too late, but after reading the thread on Althouse, I'm so enraged I had to take a lap around the office and cool off. If there's one thing I cannot deal with- it's women marginalizing and demoralizing other women over things that are of little/no importance (read: posing for pictures, having breasts while being female (!), and clothing choice). Sometimes, I feel like we, females, are our own worst enemy. It's so disheartening.
Jessica,
This whole back-and-forth is fascinating, bizarre, and depressing. But at least to me, you appear sensible and surprising respectful of the people launching this baseless ad hominem attack on you. The Althouse crowd sounds... well, dumbf*ck crazy.
Don't let this ruin your weekend. You have a lot to be proud of and more important foes to focus on than those fools.
Trackback's being uncooperative, but here's my post on Althouse's serial attacks on feminists:
Who Killed Feminism?
What do people mean when they use the term "rabid feminist thought"? When I hear the word rabid I think of that mad dog that Atticus Finch had to shoot in To Kill a Mockingbird.
Does feminist thought become rabid when it is so woman-centered that it doesn't really give a damn what a bunch of nay-sayers think? Is it rabid when it says things that make men and the mainstream uncomfortable? Is it rabid when it sticks up for women instead of the status quo?
Or do people use the word "rabid" to describe feminist thought when it is so threatening to them that they want to shoot it down like a dog in the street? Anyone care to tackle this one?
I don't consider Althouse a feminist, and I don't consider her critique a feminist critique. She is basically making an argument grounded in mainstream right-wing punditocracy, and no matter how she presents herself the rest of the time, that's the framework she's operating from here.
Do not make the mistake of assuming that this is a second-wave versus first-wave issue. She is objectifying Jessica, and enticing her crowd of adoring male right-wing blog commenters to objectify Jessica, in exactly the same way that subway catcallers might. There's nothing remotely feminist about that.
Cheers,
TH
Kactus: When I used the term "rabid feminist thought" I was speaking specifically of the angry, knee jerk commentary so frequently offered here.
Any thought that doesn't conform is "bullshit." Anything that comes close to demeaning women is evil. But turning the table on men is somehow desirable. The effect is that feminism is no longer about equality, but absolute superiority.
oh, the horror! the horror! please stop this. or at least stop commenting about what feminists wear. talk of the inappropriateness of The Feedback on jessica's appearance - yes. so-called 'analysis' (intended as solidarity or otherwise) about jessica's pose, clothes, or breasts - um, hell no. she thinks, she writes, she goes to lunches. that is all.
tRJ, using the term "rabid feminist thought" is just a fancy way of dismissing it.
Uh, yeah, tRJ, that must be it.
Personally, I feel much better now that these clowns have so clearly established that this is the same run of the mill right-wing antifeminist bullshit we've all been hearing since day one.
Idiots.
Pierpont, I'm sorry I objected to your tone. That's the last time I back up Althouse on anything.
Cheers,
TH
Well, Kaktus, I don't think it's all that fancy. But it is indeed dismissive. There's feminist thought worth considering and then there's reactionary nonsense that devolves into a parody of itself. I see no problem dismissing the latter, as it contributes little and ultimately detracts from the the original goals of the movement.
TomHead has it right. Jessica lives, breathes, wears clothes, and eats food. It's shocking, really, to find a woman acting... human.
"According to someone on Althouse, Tom and I and the rest of the guys on here are just trying to pick up lefty chicks, which Jeesica apparently encourages by dressing like that. We are just a bunch of sex crazed maniacs surfing feministing!" - bear
I think we can all agree that Tom is not as sex crazed maniac.
I'd be mad as hell, too, Jessica. I'm pretty chagrined at the commenting over there as well. Sad that it got so personal. |T| supports you.
I think we can all agree that Tom is not as sex crazed maniac.
I would really have appreciated also being cleared in that statement. Can't a guy get any respect?
Y'all have a great weekend. I'm heading out to Austin City Limits Fest.
"I don't especially like Bill Clinton.
I would still pose with Bill Clinton.
But it'd be a much bigger honor for me to pose with Jessica Valenti." - Tom Head
Although... Nah.
It might be mildly amusing to a casual observer that the one young woman in the picture happens to be right in front of Bill Clinton. I don't know, that I can get, but making fun of the way you stand or pose for pictures is ridiculous.
Reading Ann Althouse's comment thread, I'm pretty sure she's an idiot. I mean, she just calls anyone who disagrees with her stupid without even trying to actually argue with them.
How dare you, Jessica. How dare you.
I find it highly inconsiderate and inappropriate for you to stand at a slight angle and smile while having your picture taken. The scandal of it all! And to make it all the more lewd and lascivious by deciding to bring your breasts to the event. For shame. For future presidential meetings, I would consider bringing one of those John Ashcroft drapes to adorn for the photo op so no one gets the wrong idea.
(Seriously, what is WRONG with people?)
BTW, what's with Althouses constant insistence that Clinton was a sexual Harrasser. I didn't follow the Lewinsky case that closely, but I was under the impression that they had a consensual sexual affair.
It's pretty disgusting that feminism is so beautifully dismanteling itself, isn't it?
Don't let the idiots on the web anger you, Jessica. Step away from the computer and realize that there are a lot more people besides them in the world :-) And I personally had to stare at the picture several times before I saw the big deal.
bear - I was laughing at the “sex maniac� comment because Tom is a virgin. I didn't mean to insinuate anything about you.
thanks to everyone for the supportive comments (here and over there). i'm still kind of shocked that the conversation there continues...mostly about my breasts and how inappropriate it is that we have an ad for a shirt (with breasts in it!) on the site.
Noname, thanks for this. I find the whole "sex maniac" thing amusing, too. :o)
Jessica, I think what this has shown most of all is what an intellectually vacuous frathouse Althouse's community is, and how much she dries up and blows away when she tries to pass herself off as a feminist.
Kind of ironic, given the claim she was obviously trying to make.
Cheers,
TH
How are you supposed to "move forward as a movement" if you do exactly what you condemn - i.e., advertise yourself as a sexual object? Got hypocricy, baby?
How exactly am I advtertising myself as a sexual object?
Ah. I see someone unlocked the frathouse.
Cheers,
TH
I am totally baffled.
Am I the only one who thinks the image is pretty boring?
Utterly devoid of objectionable content?
Do those idiots have *no* perspective?!
That sucks for you to be the target of such woman-bashing. It's totally out of line. You looked perfectly normal to me.
When does the orgy start? It will take me a few hours to get to NY.
I'm sorry that you're going through this Jessica. Ann Althouse is a fucking asshole. Quote me on that.
How exactly am I advtertising myself as a sexual object?
Gosh, what a difficult question. Let me guess...
By using your boobs to attract attention?
So does this mean Jessica is now an internet sex symbol? Wild.
You mean, by HAVING boobs? What would you like me to do, asshole? Bind them down so you're not distracted?
Gee, I'd hate to see how they'd react if you were wearing, I don't know, something *gasp* SLEEVELESS.
How do these people find an audience? Seriously.
Cheers,
TH
Apparently, Jessica, if you don't dress up as a man, no one will ever take you seriously. So binding would be a start, but some fake facial hair would really satisfy Althouse frathouse and qualify you for "serious blogger" status.
Althouse does in fact support gender equity in this one degree: there is nothing she likes better than engaging in a dick fight with another blogger.
No, then she'd be an unattractive hairy feminist, see. That's the catch-22. The only reason Althouse isn't judged by the same standard is because she toes the patriarchal line.
Cheers,
TH
The other part of Althouse always good for a giggle is how she is always tut-tutting about the nasty nasty commenters at Eschaton, and LGF, and now at Feministing.
We can all breathe a sigh of relief that Althouse' own stable contains no muck and is a model of decorum, tact, and ideas. She sets such a fine example.
Oh, for the love of....
As a photographer, I'm thrilled when someone actually knows how to pose themselves, then they don't whine about how horrible they look in group photos and refuse to ever have their picture taken again.
Seriously though, this sort of thing is a common technique of anti-feminists. They start by saying all feminists are ugly/don't wear make-up/can't dress well. Feminist rebuts. Then jackass says "You suburban nail polish feminists are the worst."
One of the goals of feminism should be to allow a woman to walk down the street wearing any damn thing she pleases without fear of assault or catcalls.
Well, it appears that Ms. Althouse has banned me from her site. It's a shame; I lost the zinger of a post I contributed, which ended with the phrase "...you silly old prude."
Cheers,
TH
What's all the fuss about? I think you've got nice boobs...
it appears that Ms. Althouse has banned me from her site
Yeh, she likes to do that. You have to admit, she beat the old lawyer aphorism: pound on the facts, pound on the law, pound on the table,... She takes it one step further -- silently delete winning arguments.
Ann Althouse brilliantly exemplifies what I like to call 'exclusionary feminism'. It's juvenile, and it's really pathetic. Let her preach to her sorry-ass choir. Jessica, I hope to see YOUR post on the Clinton lunch sometime soon (and the only breasts I want to hear about are of the southern fried chicken variety).
NEWSFLASH: WOMEN HAVE BOOBS.
I, for example, am a woman, and I have boobs. Sometimes this fact becomes visually apparent, since they, you know, define a fairly noticeable portion of how my body is shaped. What are we arguing about again?
(By the way -- I've always liked the ambiguity of the feministing icon's finger-in-air. I can't tell whether it's a Socrates-like pose or is flipping someone off. Maybe both?)
Now I'm all grumpy that I didn't get invited to this luncheon. My snaketail would have taken the heat off everything else, especially if it was slowly crawling towards Bill Clinton.
But seriously, sorry, Jessica, for having to go through this.
But remember, everyone, Ann Althouse is the bestest feminist ever and, like, totally non-partisan, and her current War on Tits is motivated entirely by high-minded, well-placed outrage at the way Jessica is standing in a group photograph, and not, say, the opportunity to take cheap shots at a liberal blog. Because that would be so very, very unlike her.
What? Everyone talking about her boobies and saying how nice they are?
Yeah, that's just awful.
Hi Jessica,
I'm sorry this happened. Althouse is probably just jealous of you. I thought you looked fine in the photo, and look forward to your future posts about the substantive content of the meeting.
I don't really like to say this, but remember that Ms. Althouse is coming up on 60. If she had no personal jealousy towards feminist bloggers half her age, she'd be a remarkable person.
And she doesn't strike me as a remarkable person.
Cheers,
TH
Am I too late? Has everyone been picked up yet?
The whole thing seems to boil down to "How dare you look hot! Real feminists are ugly!"
Um, sure. And then again, what on earth is she doing paying so much attention to boobs, anyway? Come on, you're obviously "posed" just in the way that every photographer tells people in a lineup group like that to pose - turn slightly to the inside so everyone can squoosh together a bit more. Whazzerface Althouse really needs to get a life. And I'm really having difficulty not making outhouse jokes about her last name, but I'm not, see? Because it would be stooping to her level.
Wow, that really puts the punch in "You've come a long way, baby", doesn't it?
WTF - you're not allowed to dress in a becoming fashion, or pose in a way that most photographers would /tell you/ to pose, because heaven forbid you try to look NICE when posing with someone who was a former president of the United States??
Of course, if you /hadn't/ tried to look nice, then they would have bashed on you for being "ugly".
Or perhaps you should have given the camera the finger, so that everyone could whinge about your lack of respect for one of only four people currently living on this entire planet (and one of only 43 in the history of the entire world) who has served as the President of the United States. Yeah, that's the ticket!
Clearly, this is how burquas would liberate all women!! We should embrace the freedom of living through a shroud! *snort!*
Please remember that there are a lot of us "out there" that know you only as text, and appreciate every word.
Oh, horseshit.
Ms. Althouse, discussing a thread on Eschaton in which commenters disparage her as a feminist and as a physical object:
Wank the fuck on, dear.
And I say this as a plain-as-a-mud-fence middle-aged feminist who wears her clothes a size or two up to render the point moot.
I apologize to everyone for the age comment, BTW. Was trying to think of an explanation for Althouse's vitriol, but that's no excuse.
Cheers,
TH
Jessica, your response to her was perfect. I think the whole "controversy" over the fact that you have breasts just goes to show why Feministing is necessary. It's a shame you have to deal with this crap, but I hope it also reaffirms your commitment to presenting a place for young feminists to express their opinions and be taken seriously (boobs and all).
And three big cheers for Tom Head (and quite a few others) for an eloquent retort to this stupidity!
Manda, thanks so much for this. It got my Irish up, as you can probably tell!
And I gotta agree--this whole mess has demonstrated why we need Feministing and why we need Jessica Valenti and Ann Friedman and Samhita Mukhopadhyay. I think we're witnessing a new version of the virgin:whore dichotomy where if you wear a loose blazer and don't do makeup you're frumpy and a feminist because you can't get a man, and if you dress like most young women dress you're a slut and a feminist because you want sex without consequences. The end result is that all young women who want to assert themselves can plan on being cut off at the knees.
There's a lot of misogyny in this culture that wears lipstick and pantyhose and paints its nails, lots of male chauvinists with ovaries and high voices. The world needs you. Thank you for being here for it.
And I totally meant what I said, BTW. Not to diss Clinton (who I'm admittedly not fond of), but I would have put Jessica Valenti on par with anybody else in that room, including the dude standing behind you. The idea that you should have been anybody but yourself just because a former president was there is laughable.
Cheers,
TH
There's a lot of misogyny in this culture that wears lipstick and pantyhose and paints its nails, lots of male chauvinists with ovaries and high voices. The world needs you. Thank you for being here for it.
Uh, insert obvious paragraph break. ;o) Sorry--long day (one of my forum contributors died of lung cancer, my mayor was indicted by a grand jury for multiple civil liberties violations, and the day was made even longer by the idiocy that is Althouse...).
Cheers,
TH
On behalf of the estimable Ms. Althouse I propose that this, on the other hand, would have been an acceptable "pose." Three-quarter view and all.
What everyone else said "Oh noes! The infamous UN-feminist 3-quarter tilt to the side showing you have chest mounds in order to show the president in the photo!" I mean really. Firstly, I'd be THRILLED to have lunch with Bill Clinton and get in a picture with him. Second, if it was such a memorable picture I would automatically pose so that I wouldn't mind seeing myself in the pic (this is just self-concious me). Thirdly, HELLO! the whole point is that Clinton is in the shot and if you didn't tilt to the side you wouldn't be able to see him. Those people were being rude and overly critical and darn in business suits were created for men and they don't have breasts so God forbid if yours stand out in a shot and it look "unprofessional"!
Oh, for gosh sake. When you're in a group picture, the polite thing to do is turn a bit to the side so that the people behind you can be seen. Althouse and company have got some issues here, though the polite things is to just let them to their own demons and shut up. Which I now will. Unlike Althouse, who should have known better.
That "random" shot is really annoying. Seems to say, sure, almost all the women happened to be shorter than most of the men, and normally in a group shot, you'd line up the shorter in front, taller in the rear, and intermediate heights on the ends. But you librulz are supposed to ignore bits of reality like men being taller on average! Therefore, you must all be hypocrites!
Argh, I have to go clean my brain out now after trying to think like even a parody of their point of view.
Jessica, when I saw the picture, I just thought your pose looked like someone who sang in the high school chorus. But then, I'm not obsessed with other women's breasts the way Althouse apparently is.
Ann Althouse and all of the rest of the creepy right can't stand it that we are not only smarter, more aware, less afraid and more fun, we are also much better looking and in better shape. Screw 'em.
Atrios is taller than I expected.
I almost snorted my cola when I read this comment by Tom ... "Feminism is supposed to be about empowering women, not simply giving them more convoluted ways to submit to men." This he says in support of tight shirts over ample bosoms.
Not that Jessica was engaging in such, but wouldn't using one's "assets" as a method of empowerment be exactly the opposite? "Society is way to paternalistic and male dominated ... I know ... I'll wield my terrific rack and have them groveling" Uhmmm, this doesn't change the status quo ... it perpetuates it (I'm of the opinion that abortion is similar, but that may be to edgy for this blog).
Sorry Tom ... I took Home-Ec in junior high too ... never works (or maybe Tom's a genius and I should shut-up ... I mean, who doesn't like a tight shirt).
By the way, I do think Jessica stands out b/c she's far more attractive and, perhaps, used to having people WANT to take her picture (as opposed, perhaps, to some of the others in the photo who appear not unlike a deer moments before impact) ... thus, she knows how to stand when someone says "cheese". And she certainly shouldn't be ashamed of a decent cup size ... I'm just not sure feminism has anything to do with it (and that goes for Althouse or the apologists here).
Jessica, you do an awesome job. I love Feministing.
Just wanted to send you some love. ^_^
hi jessica, this is my first visit. i arrived here after spending some time in the outhouse, er, althouse blog after following a link from steve gilliard's place. i considered weighing in there, but thought it a waste of time. i decided to stop in here and have a look around and found a far more rational environment.
i just wanted to say that the photo is a photo. were i taking the shot, i might have encouraged some of the other attendees to shift their positions for compositional purposes. you and christy were exactly where you should have been. that is how group photos work. you looked lovely.
i scanned a few other posts at althouse and then here. suffice it to say, you are now in my bookmarks. althouse, not so much.
to paraphrase kris kristofferson at a bob dylan tribute concert, when the audience booed sinead o'connor shortly after she ripped up a picture of the pope on saturday night live, "don't let the little shit get you down...it's all little shit". and ms. althouse is clearly a little shit.
cheers
Feminists don't pose? Holy crap, I must have missed the memo on that one. Does this mean I have to hand in my membership card?
Jessica, I am so sorry that dried up old female got to you. I've been a feminist over 40 years and one thing I can vouch for, Ann is an ignorant woman and she is not a feminist. Ann is no more a feminist then Phyllis Schafley. She sounds like she gets her rhetoric right out of the Eagle Forum handbook. It's just flat out ignorance for one woman to go after another and use a body part as a way to do it.
I am just disgusted that she has the stones to call herself a feminist, she isn't, she's just another RW voice using anything she can to put down the left. Don't fall for it. Stand up straight, be proud and go tell her to go screw herself.
I really don't get it. The outfit isn't even scandalous. It's a properly fitted knit shirt and black pants. It's not low-cut, it's not overly tight, and it's certainly nothing to get excited about.
I think you look very nice, Jessica. I love your hair, and I'm sure your parents are excited that you look good in your photo with Bill Clinton. (My mother would be upset if I looked BAD in my picture with Bill Clinton, and she's much more frightening that internet posters.)
That said, come on people! There's almost 100 comments in this topic, and there's so much else to talk about! I'll be hanging out in one of the other threads. You know, the ones that Jessica and the others work hard on researching and posting for us. I'll meet you all there, ok?
This whole controversy reminded me of this post.
Don't worry about Althouse. She has to criticize us "chumps" because when she tries to dabble in law, she gets her head handed to her. Looking at breasts in a picture is much easier for her than say reading a brief in the NSA wiretapping case.
And as for "breastblogging," her bff Professor Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit flaunts his wife's breasts on his blog all the time. Don't expect criticsm from Ann though, she's too much of a feminist.
I gotta agree with prairielily. I mean, I've worn less clothing than that in formal-looking photos, and I'm a dude.
I've also probably stuck out my chest more. Happens when I don't watch the ol' carbs. Moving on...
Re Althouse: It's beginning to look to me like she's trying very, very hard to be Ann Coulter and not quite pulling it off.
Cheers,
TH
Um, does Althouse have a recommendation of how you could feature a picture of a woman wearing a t-shirt and NOT have breasts included in the photo? Her entire post is absurd.
I wouldn't be upset about this, Jessica, because she's an older, right-wing anti-feminist who wasn't invited to the blog leader party which explains it all. She's no different than a right-wing, anti-feminist trolls feminists can ignore. Conservatives get confused with non-binary thinking like Matt said.
"Jessica is young and beautiful, and speaking solely in regards to bloggers I’ve met so are her cobloggers Vanessa and Celina, Lindsay Beyerstein of Majikthise, Amanda Marcotte of Pandagon, Jill and zuzu of Feministe, and Cooper of WonderlandorNot all young and beautiful feminists. This is obviously a big mental stumbling block for Ann and other anti-feminists."
thanks to everyone for their comments...and a big thanks to those who posted in support of me. i'll probably do a roundup of some sort over the weekend but for now i MUST sleep. this has been a weird day. thanks again, everyone--your support means a lot.
Jessica -- wish you all the best. This blogwar stuff passes. Love your writing, and Althouse is a jerk.
Remember how confused and angry men and conservatives got when Gloria Steinem made radical remarks? Same thing, different wave.
Jessica stands out in the "Clinton and the Bloggers" picture for a number of reasons - that she's attractive, female, and right in front of Clinton have been discussed. She's also in the center of the picture, she's got a great smile, and, more importantly, not dressed at all like any of the people she's standing next to.
Compositionally, its hard for Jessica to stand out less. The guy on the left in blue stands out, but he's not looking at the camera, and he's off to the side. The woman in red stands out, but she's half behind someone. Christy Hardin Smith, the reddhedd in black next to Jessica, blends in a bit with all the other dark clothes. Because of the color of her outfit, and where she's positioned, Jessica would stand out if she was a grey blob!!
In that picture, Jessica really stands out. It's unfortunate that Althouse and many others won't get beyond the obvious reasons she does.
what's horrifying about this is that this jealous, stupid, and crazy old bitch has power over the lives of beautiful young law students.
if the first sex discrimination suit by a woman against a woman is against professor ann althouse, i won't be a bit surprised.
As you probably know, you made Salon!
Althouse seems to be engaging in the oldest form of female-baiting: Reducing other women, especially one's professional competitors, to their appearance and sexuality. To knock Valenti for looking attractive and then hit her with the inverse criticism "Don't flatter yourself" is behavior unworthy of the cattiest locker room.
Let's face it. The woman is jealous and petty and lacks in intellectual stock.
She's one of the reasons women still have a long way to go in the workplace and in politics.
What you have to remember about Althouse is that 1) she's not very smart and 2) she's virtually always wrong.
So try not to be upset - if Althouse has something terrible and bitchy to say about you, you're probably doing something right. :-)
Jesus, this is outrageous, Jessica.
All I know is, I hope I'm not in any pix if I ever do get invited, because the boobie patrol will have much to deal with.
How juvenile.
I'm the "woman in red" in the photo, also known as TalkLeft. Here's what I just wrote about this.
I think it's awful that a woman as smart and talented as Jessica should be called on the carpet by someone my age for the way she looks in a photograph. Have women learned nothing in the past 30 years? We should be complimenting Jessica for making enough of a mark at her age to be invited to the event.
My un-asked for advice to Jessica: You know who you are. Ignore the nay-sayers.
Oh my. I just tried to post a comment on Althouse, but didn't want to start my own blog at the moment, so I decided to post it here.
I would like to say: As a woman and a feminist, I am embarrassed by Althouse's shitty, bickering attitude. I can't believe educated women still snipe at other women over clothing and petty, perceived intentions. What a moron. I can't believe we're wasting time on this. Is this the height of our discourse..."You dress like a slut so all the men will look at you"...? Jeezuz, I thought we were beyond this.
I hope that stupid shallow woman shuts up soon. She's making us all look bad.
Don't worry Jessica, even though she's bleating about your outfit, she's the one who's showing her ass all over the place.
Jessica,
Just read about this at Echidne. This is really bogus. Sad that some feminists seem to believe that to qualify for their club, you need to wear the Western equivalent of a burqa to hide your shape, and of course never use a positive expression in a photo! Good grief.
hey sylke,
i ran into the same issue (when you get to the 2nd page of signing up, right?) and found that the username and password i entered on the previous page worked even though i didn't finish the process. hope this helps...
Much Ado About Nothing
Look at the two AmericaBlog guys. John's on the end grabbing ass, right? The guy in front is "Joe in DC" (I think) He's making a obscene hand sign. See? It's all there.
Jane Hamsher is wearing a low cut dress and who's that guy on the end playing pocket pool? Hmmm?
Jessica, the photo is an IQ test. Ann's flunked as have all other critics. All I see is youth, and oh god how I'm jealous.
"To be nobody-but-yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -- ee cummings
I hope that you remember that you are so much bigger than Althouse, Ace, GLenn Reynolds and all their commenters Jessica. I have another post up on this whole thing.
Stealing a line from my coblogger, Shorter Althouse commenters: I reject Jessica’s intellect because she made my pants move.
Feministing has become one of my favorite websites and something I read through multiple times a day.
Jessica, you are beautiful and thats certainly nothing to be ashamed of.
I would be thrilled to meet Bill Clinton, congratulations on the opportunity, I'm glad you get the respect you deserve, even if it infuriates other people ;)
"Did folks forget that girls have boobs?"
Maybe so, but my theory is that Althouse doesn't approve of the female form.
Perhaps a little breast binding would please her?
But seriously, if you'd worn baggy clothes they'd be talking about how ugly feminists are.
This says nothing about you Jessica and everything about bizarre Althouse and her readers.
I left my comment over at the other blog. I think it's #373. I've never posted here or there before, but I wanted to add my voice of support. We're never going to get anywhere if feminists keep standing in a circular firing squad - at least those who are actually *true* feminists anyway.
That was a low blow on Althouse's part. There's no doubt about that. When I saw you in that pic earlier this week (at dkos), all I thought was that there was a woman, along with everyone else, who looked proud to be standing with a former president who has taken such an interest in lefty bloggers.
I save my fashion critiques for the anorexic models who are now, thankfully, on their way out.
Just keep doing what you're doing and keep being who you are. That's all that matters. Feminism is about freedom.
You guys just don't understand Althouse. Feminists categorically look bad, hate men, and eschew sex. Hence every woman who looks good - and, let's face it, at least in the pictures I've seen Jessica's a stunner - must not be a real feminist. The facts may be on feminists' side, but what are facts next to a good dose of truthiness?
Jessica-just wanted to say you simply look like a nice normal person in the photo,with a great smile!I can't believe some of the pitiful,personal comments that have been made about you.That sort of crap is so typical-if a woman is considered less than attractive,her opinions must be informed by jealousy and bitterness;conversely,women deemed "attractive" are somehow incapable of rational(and feminist) thought....WTF?Bit of a no-win situation really!
Just wanted to offer my support,keep up the good work on Feministing
You mean, by HAVING boobs? What would you like me to do, asshole? Bind them down so you're not distracted?
Jessica, your boobs are not that distracting. What's distracting, apart from your "asshole" thing, is your cluelessness. You rub your boobs in your readers' faces, which would be fine if you didn't deny it. You're a clown and you don't even know it.
Which goes to prove that stupidity is an equal opprtunity condition. It affects men and women alike.
--eden
Huh?!?! Rub her boobs in peoples' faces? Prove it, moron - I totally dare you.
If you think Jessica is "rubbing her boobs in peoples' faces," then I would hate to see the slobber marks on your monitor whenever you see the National Geographic site, or a mommy breastfeeding.
You seriously need to get over your boobie fixation. Or at least, find some like-minded six-year-olds to hang with and leave the rest of us alone.
Whenever anyone takes out a camera, I pose three-quarters, too. I have the probably unfounded belief that I will then appear merely fat rather than obese.
And isn't a major point about bloggers that one doesn't know what they look like until one meets them in person? That, as the New Yorker had it, one's online correspondent may be a dog? Since Clinton is out of office, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he assumed they "looked diverse."
Just keep running with your blog and it will live or die on its merits. Your "stunning good looks" will generate a bit of traffic initially, but your writing will keep it alive.
Best of luck (and a lot of hard work),
ORWoody
I got here from Memeorandum, Jessica, to see what the buzz was about. Being human, I found myself weighing first impressions like I usually do, but not by clothing or chest shape.
Faces; eyes and mouths especially. And I saw a group that appears to be largely happy, and engaging. A group that'd probably be enjoyable even off political topics.
I think it's perfectly normal for folks to utilize visual cues and make guesses about people. But when I hear (or read) what visual cues different people focus on, that's also instructive to me.
Generally speaking, the group showed up in casual but respectable clothing for a dinner with a former President. Can't see much to criticize there.
So, it seems that someone started out taking the easy cheap-shot at Clinton (about as original as a fart joke, that) without any real thought at all about who else they were insulting. And by highlighting your breasts and physical attractiveness, they ended up stereotyping themselves.
Then, when called on it, defended their silliness by grasping at straws, demonstrating that they back up weak humor with self-righteous indignation. Had they just admitted their silliness, it could be written off as just a weak political barb, but no, they felt compelled to defend sophomorism with attacks on you because you are (gasp!) a feminist.
I understand why you're offended. The way it got handled by rightist bloggers, it hardly sounded like an adult conversation. Singling out someone for being a feminist - with the level of middle-schooler's responses to their first trip to a zoo - struck me with the sincerity of their ignorance.
Which would be amusing if they actually WERE middle-schoolers.
A cheap shot for political reasons, I can easily dismiss, as I'm prone to similar moments of silliness. But the ensuing discussion left me with the hope that someday, those indignant rightists might actually mature enough to stop using ignorance as a defense of silliness.
Then they'll realize that silliness is excusable, that the best response when one offends another is to apologize, and one gains nothing by proceeding from silliness to utterly stupid.
For some, maturity comes slowly. For some, it's like waiting for Godot.
As for you, I consider it your good fortune to meet with such a group. I hope the enjoyment of that outweighs the ensuing negatives of the effort to instruct morons about their pitiable moronity.
Jessica,
Did you or did you not stick those boob into the camera?
Do you or do you not want to be sexually attractive?
Jessica,
Lindsay Beyerstein gave exactly the right response.
And I will file Althouse under:
Feminism, Not quite clear on the concept of
Love your show, babe.
Jessica, this is just a note from someone who doesn't care how anybody looks. Althouse's initial posts -- and, even worse, her increasingly snide and smarmy followups -- are some of the pettiest, stupidest things I've ever seen on the Internets, and I'm not excluding that guy from Pro-Teen Wisdom. So just keep on keepin' on, and let the good professor baste herself in bile until she's done. She's already given many of us more reasons not to take her seriously than we'll ever need.
Ivan,
Are you or are you not a member of the American Taliban?
If Jessica would wear her burqa in public like a good women poor Ivan wouldn't be getting all excited about her feminism.
This is just incredibly messed up. It's a POSED PHOTO and you are just STANDING THERE. Fucking insane. After reading Althouse's cra-zee comments, I clicked on the photo expecting you to be shimmying in a low-cut T-shirt or something. Good freaking god. I also love how her commenters alternated between "Why would a good feminist pose with Bill Clinton, noted molestor" and "She was certainly dressed innapropriately to meet such a high-level man." Umm....
Ivan wants me to engage him because he's doing a round of posts about my tits. Classy. And no, Ivan, I didn't "stick those boobs" into the camera. Look at the picture asshole. It's not my problem that all you see when looking at a normal group photo is tits.
Jessica - when I looked at the picture, I didn't recognise anybody but Clinton and tried to figure out which one would be you. This fascinates me because I never thought twice about any particular person in the photo and I don't understand how anybody could make such a big deal about it.
Then again, I know that women have breasts. Damn dirty pillows that they are...
Anyway, congrats on the meeting and the chow! Don't let the bastards get you down. This is why I'm so glad there are people like you and a place like Feministing.
Althouse is really off-base. No, they did not arrange the bloggers 'randomly'.
Clinton is in the center; he's objectively the most important person there.
But after that - he's a Southern gentleman. I have never in my life met a Southern gentleman who, when posing for a group picture, would not insist that women be in the place of honor in the picture - front and center.
Maybe I'm off base; I'm not a Southerner. But the folks I meet from the South who have manners -- by theirs or any standards -- do a million little things this way, basically without conscious thought, simply because that's what's done.
(One should add that most photographers do that too, often for no reason other than the average woman is about two inches shorter than the average man and the photo should actually show everyone's face, so shorter folks should be in front.)
My God. I didn't agree with all of Clinton's policies, but he's far and away the best president of my lifetime (I'm forty; what's the competition exactly?) and it pisses me off no end that the successful Republican narrative that everything Clinton is all about TEH SEX gets repeated by folks who should know better.
It's an honor to be in a picture with a former president. Period.
Hi Jessica! Nice to make your bloggy acqaintence!
I have to admit, I did not even see you the first couple times I saw the picture. I was looking for faces of the blog people I have read regularly, trying to see what they look like in real life. So, the whole notion of noticing you because of your "pose" (and being critical of you because of your healthy good looks) is lame on a whole other level.
Hells bells, I wish I'd had a figure like that when I was younger. Hell, I wish I had that kind of figure now.
I'm an environmental scientist, and I can tell you first hand how hard it is to be a woman and sexual and look good too without being disparaged (or "teased" as my male counterparts would likely tell you). So, because I like my boobs (only took 40 years to get them, and now they need extra support lifts from here on out), and I like to look nice, I have to be rather assertive and know my shit better than any one else in the room. Moreover, I have to have big brass ovaries, because there is nothing more intimidating than a smart, healthy woman.
I'm sorry so many women don't get it. Being a feminist does not mean you have to spend your life being a neutered man. Rock on!!
Jessica,
As a male, please allow me to apologize for all of the knuckle dragging immature males on this planet. The preponderance of ignorant men at times makes me sigh deeply, and at other times horrifies me greatly :)
In my lifetime, I have noticed a few things:
1. We are all born as children, and are necessarily selfish at that time, thinking only of ourselves. We scream when we need to be fed, to be changed, to be held, to get rest. This is necessary in infancy. Some of us grow out of this and learn to think of more than ourselves, some of us just continue to go through their whole lives thinking we are the center of the world.
2. As children, we are necessarily fascinated with breasts, as these are the natural recepticles of our sustenance. Many humans learn to diminish their focus on breasts as a part of maturing, a few men seem to never get past this.
3. As children, we tend to say whatever we think, our thoughts being like gumballs just dropping from our brains out onto our tongues. Again, as part of the maturing process, we are supposed to learn that certain comments are hurtful of others. Unfortunately many people age, yet never mature in this way either.
4. A small percentage of us our blessed enough to be raised by parents who are both highly educated, and where both parents support and advance the equality of men and women.
Unfortunately, far too many others seemed to be raised in strange barns of ignorance where the ridiculous subordination of women is not only tolerated but encouraged.
My point is this as follows:
As an educated and, i hope, mature male, I have spent a lifetime surrounded by many men who seem to be only slightly evolved from our cromagnon forefathers. I suspect it will be this way for my entire lifetime. People like you and I will keep fighting this fight, but Jessica, whenever you can, try not to let the fight get you down too much. Pity the fools who will never know the meaning of a deep committed relationship, and instead will only spend their lives visiting "Hooters" restaurants and swilling beer.
Best of luck to you Jessica. Keep fighting the good fight.
Sincerly,
Steven Joseph
I have to admit; when I first saw this post I was a bit shocked. (But not because of the picture) Normally this blog is rather strident on feminist issue’s. To see one of its more regular contributors standing alongside the poster boy of misogyny (with no reservation and even beaming pride) struck me as embarrassing.
Jessica, I'm of about the same build as you (guessing from the picture) and I have a thousand pictures of me in that same pose. The breasts are just there.
Those who are making snarky comments are forgetting that women come in many shapes and sizes. I fart in their general direction.
Please. Althouse is no feminist. Serving up another woman's appearance on a platter to let your guests pick apart like so much smoked whitefish is not a feminist act.
It's not about boobs, or about posing, or about Clinton's attitudes towards women. It's just that Jessica is attractive and dressed nicely in the picture, and some people just don't want feminists to look like that. It was a sadly predictable response, but you should be proud of having provoked it.
It's disgusting that so much is being made out of that picture.
We are slipping into another dark ages! Fashions have gone bland. Hem lines have gone down. Women should feel guilty for being women?
Political correctness has gone too far. The 'religious police' are terrorizing the country.
Yes, Jessica has breasts. Breasts aren't the enemy here folks, it's those that are either jelous or resentful of a woman having them and not showing up bound or restricted or covered by a 'man suit' coat or a burqa.
Does the woman in the bamboo print dress 'pass inspection' because she appears much more to have much less?
Is so much of this being made out of either a hatred of President Clinton (as if he's so much worse than our current one) or that President Clinton was seduced by a bimbo parading herself (thong and all) in his face, or is it that how dare a 'woman of power' not dress appropriately in the 'business straight jacket' that political dorrectness forces women of power into.
Hell, if i'd been invited I'd have worn a pair of jeans (clean), Birkenstocks (black) and a polo shirt. It's what I wear when I'm comfortable.
Another point: women didn't evolve with breasts to become sexual objects for men and threatening to other women, females evolved breasts to be able to feed their offspring. It's the puritanical witch hunters and religious perverts that places breasts in particular, and women as a whole into their bondage of ignorance and perversion.
Well, it also appears that Jessica is the youngest women there. So what. Doesn't she deserve a chair at the adult table now without the PC sharpshooters taking aim?
How will it stop? When the burqa has been forced on women in this country by those that can't keep their minds clean?
Is it all of that above or an attack of the Beavis and Butt-head moralists... (Hu hu hu hu he said 'butt' hu hu hu hu)
Encumbered by idiots, we pressed on...
Sean, I do believe you're right. When I first saw the picture over at FDL, I thought, who's that in the middle? She sure is pretty! Then I hear that it's Jessica from Feministing and that picture has made her a target thanks to a bitter attack from Althouse, the stupidest law professor in America.
If there's a hell, Althouse is going for her big whopping dose of Envy. It's written all over those posts of hers.
I claim dibs on a ringside seat to watch her burn.
I read the AltHouse post, and I still don't understand why he/she/it is making such a big deal out of your "pose," which really is a "non-pose," since you're JUST STANDING THERE. In the front. Smiling. For a picture. And in the presence of a former president who fed you a good lunch. I mean, really. I would totally be smiling. I love Bill Clinton. And fried chicken.
AltHouse's remark seems to say that you better expect criticism/attention/snarkiness if you're good looking and/or have tits that you don't flatten out and make invisible or something. Or maybe AltHouse (he? she?) is saying that you should have been in the back row, you know, because you're a woman. Maybe you should have been wearing a burqa?
Hell, I don't even know! It was such a stupid remark, I can't even try to apply any sort of logic to it!
Besides, Jessica. Your tits aren't all that big.
Just kidding.
Hey Jessica --
What Michael Berube said. You've contributed far too much to the health and well-being of feminist bloglandia and feminism more generally, that Althouse's comments simply look foolish to anyone with two brain cells to rub together. The rest? They were going to side with her anyway.
And WDK aka W. Kiernan: Your photoshop rawx, dude.
Forgot to say this: remember: It isn't the breastesies. It's the lucky stardust.
If there's a hell, Althouse is going for her big whopping dose of Envy. It's written all over those posts of hers.
I wasn't going to say anything, but as long as you brought it up...yeah, sadly, I think that's probably at the root of her issue, though of course she would deny it all the way to her grave.
I have never seen the word burqa so many times in one place. I am rechristening this BurqaBlog.
I love Bill Clinton.
I only like Bill Clinton, but I'd certainly never turn down the opportunity to meet and talk with him. I think the clueless trolls do not understand either the meaning of the word "misogynist" or of the term "poster child."
I'm looking forward to your observations on the lunch, Jessica, and I'm certain they'll be far more interesting than anything to be found at Althouse's site. Although I'll never know.
Susan
“I think the clueless trolls do not understand either the meaning of the word "misogynist" or of the term "poster child."
Well I hope I understand the meaning of Both. It seems sexual harassment law was designed from its inception to clip the wings of men like Bill Clinton (or was it just handy against Bob Packwood and Clarence Thomas?)
I know that was my original reaction to the post before Ann Althouse even brought it up… It was like heh! How can someone who considers herself a feminist pose with Clinton while not even bringing up his transgressions.
Most of the posters over at Ann’s Blog took it the same way…
Some of the more salient comments are
By Ann herself.
...my whole original point was that I'm disgusted by bloggers who gush about how "honored" they are to be in the presence of Clinton
OR
“It probably should have dawned on Ann and some of the regulars here that Feministing's Marching and Chowder Society wanted to obfuscate your point, not engage with it. They recognized your point as a threat, and their first and only response was to kill it through any means necessary. “
OR
“Read more carefully. Most of the 400 comments are the Feminist Fisting crew pretending not to understand the point.
And about 50 posts carefully explaining to "feminists" that sodomizing subordinate employees is not just about sex.�
OR
“whose fault is it that women have to think twice how they are perceived when they stand in front of President Clinton?�
I think most of the Obfuscation they are referring to can best be given context in the notion that whole swaths of the population subscribe to the following notion.
“Feminism died in 1998 when Hillary allowed henchlings and Democrats to demonize Monica as an unbalanced stalker, and when Gloria Steinem defended Mr. Clinton against Kathleen Willey and Paula Jones�
For what it's worth, Jessica, the commenters on your side appear more intelligent than Althouse's hysterical rabble by several orders of magnitude.
But in order to prevent this from happening again, here are some tips.
1. Always wear thick sweaters.
2. For pictures, always stand in the back where you can't distract anyone.
3. If you aren't ashamed of your body, you need to start being so--otherwise, you're obviously not a pure feminist.
4. Listen to Ann Althouse. She appears to be best blog-friends with conservative assholes, so you can be assured that her brand of feminism is likely the correct one.
I neither lurk nor comment much, but when I saw this at TGW I was shocked and disgusted. Only a few links later, I got more of what you're dealing with here in Althouse; pretty vile stuff. You are righteously pissed; the only thing for Prof. Althouse to do is confess and repent (crawling would be nice) and beg forgiveness.
I've been encouraged that young people are making feminist a part of their own identity. Please don't let this nasty attack by a gang of sexist half-wits deter you. I look forward to your own impression of the lunch.
Sorry, you've been the object of a flame war, from concern trolls calling themselves feminists.
Because, gee, I've been a feminist for over 30 years, and can't recall one conversation with other feminists where the topic came up "pretty girl in her twenties wearing short-sleeved shirt in warmish weather is baaaaaaad!"
No one, ever. Nowhere, no how. Not even close.
Other internecine battles maybe, but that one never came up, even at NOW meetings in the 1970s. And I also can't recall an argument against the "three-quarter turn that would seem to showcase breasts, if only to nutcases."
Not in Betty Friedan's writing either, or Susan Faludi, or even Dworkin.
So it seems to me that those making such ridiculous arguments -- ain't feminists. That actual feminists have had more important issues to fight for 40 years, been too darn busy to be that assholic.
Jessica...
I've never seen your blog until today when I got myself enmeshed in the whole breasts controversy while reading Broadsheet over at Salon.
First off, cheers to you for defending yourself against such an obvious and dimwitted line of attack. It's obvious Ann Althouse was totally wrong and instead of apologizing, she chose to dig herself into a deeper and deeper hole. The more she struggles to justify her weak attack on you, the stupider she looks. And I come into this as a total outsider with no history on either side.
That being said, I have to say that the true fault here does lie with you. And I'm surprised Ann hasn't brought this up.
If you look at the picture once again, it's obvious that you chose to stand at an angle where the light would accentuate your breasts. The exact angle of your stance casts the most favorable shadow on your shirt, thereby emphasizing that indeed, you do have breasts. This is clear to anyone who looks closely at this picture and I find it remarkable that Ann Althouse did not use this line of attack against you.
To paraphrase Bubba's ragin' strategist, James Carville, it's the light, stupid.
I'll bet you calculated that angle down to one-tenth of one degree to make your chest stand out perfectly. And the arch of your back... flawless. Did you use a simple protractor or call in experienced surveyors for this job? Furthermore, I sincerely hope you used union stagehands and electricians to get the lighting just right.
Now that the truth is out, I do have to say shame on you, Jessica, for setting back the feminist cause by decades. Next time, do us all a favor: take the picture in the dark and tell us Bill was in it.
Now keep up the good work (in the dark, of course).
Jessica, I'm just writing because I'm completely flabberghasted about this--both the idea that you're being attacked for being good-looking and...what, not concealing all evidence of your breasts with a magic super-powered breast-occluder? This is one of the dumbest, pettiest attacks I have ever heard of. Women have breasts. We also have eyes. Alert the media.
Anyway, you look great, but I started reading this blog not because of what you look like (because I didn't know back then), but because of the writing on it (I started reading, actually, because of the Pollitt column where she quotes you on Maureen Dowd's book: "Feminism isn't a fucking dating service!"). It's a great blog; if anything is threatening other bloggers or making them jealous, it's that.
holy shit jessica. this is just flat out ridiculous. If they think *you're* a provocativly dressed feminist they should swing by my women's studies class and check out the boobies in there! Im sorry, but since when has a grey sweater like t-shirt been deemed 'provocative'.
Jessica I suggest you go eat 10 tubs of ice cream, get a breast reduction and invest in some baggy sac t-shirts. *THEN* and only then will I think about considering the fact that you're a real feminist.
Jessica,
On the pictue, a normal person sees a bunch of horny cows surrounding Bill Clinton.
You didn't ask my question:
Do you or do you not want to be sexually attractive?
aztrias,
Don't feel bad for me. I haven't been this entertained in a while. And yes, I love it when women show off their boobs. I just find it pathetically funny when they go, "Stop staring at my silicone implants! I'm smart!"
The fact that you think I would take such ridiculous bait is out of hand. And if you really wanted to engage in a conversation about the "appropriateness" of my "behavior" in standing for a photo perhaps you should think to use a better line than "stick those boobs." You're a fucking disgrace.
Ivan, if that's normal, I'm proud to be weird.
"On the pictue[sic], a normal person sees a bunch of horny cows surrounding Bill Clinton."
Atrios is a "horny cow"? Who knew?
Anyway, I tried to send you a trackback ping, Jessica. Here are my thoughts about all of this:
Feminism, Breasts & Bill Clinton.
OK, one more comment and then I'll go...
In a world filled with such ugliness, we need more truely beautiful people.
I'm not talking about just beauty on the outside.
Beauty on the inside shows in the way people smile and their sense of fun...
Keep smilin' or the ugly bastards have won! Wow, what a world that would be...
Also, social commentary: With all that is going on in this world people are harping on you. I say 'Fuck 'em!'
Encumbered by idiots, we pressed on...
I would be totally pissed off too if I were you, Jessica! You're an amazing feminist and an amazing blogger... don't let them get you down.
Fitz wrote:
How can someone who considers herself a feminist pose with Clinton while not even bringing up his transgressions.
Jessica hasn't even posted her report on the lunch yet; maybe she will mention them, and then you'll be happy.
...whole swaths of the population subscribe to the following notion. “Feminism died..."
"Whole swaths"? I highly doubt it. Anyone who thinks that should pay more attention. Don't worry about feminism-- it's alive and well!
Have to say that I'm kindof glad that Althouse made such an asshat out of herself. It shows once again, in Technicolor, just how out there some people can be.
But more importantly, it led me to this blog. Today's my first visit, and just wanted to say that this site really speaks for itself.
The true sadness here is how so many people judge a person by her pose in a picture, (even one as perfectly normal as this,) and not by what she writes or believes in...
Jessica, when I saw the pic Althouse and Dr. Helen were sniping about I couldn't believe it. Your pose is perfectly natural. My grandmother wouldn't found anything to criticize about it.
Maybe next time, though, you should wear a burka, to avoid giving offense to the likes of Althouse and Dr. Helen.
Well, I thought about it a bit more and realized this sort of bullshit analysis is a fairly common tactic. After all, who could object to a little analysis? Never mind that it's crap; it's still analysis, so let no dog bark.
Iraq is a total clusterf*ck, Afghanistan is unraveling, the economy is only good if you're clipping coupons, and the worst thing Altblouse could find to write about was the fact that you were shorter than most of the bloggers and were therefore standing in the front row.
That, and apparently you're guilty of looking like a woman.
Personally, I'd drop her a personal note c/o the university to let her know that you appreciate her post deeply as it humiliated the so-called "smart" wingnut blogosphere.
And if Clinton has an ounce of class (debatable), he should send you a note of apology because it was HIS behavior that led to this raunchy, demeaning post from a vacuous my-life-is-going-down-the-toilet tv pundit.
"Rickey Ray Rector, for those who would like to forget, shot and killed police officer Bob Martin in Conway, Ark., in 1981. After firing on Martin, Rector shot himself in the head. He botched the job, succeeding only in turning himself into an idiot.
His brain was so wrecked that before going to the execution chamber, Rector saved part of his last meal "for later."
Bill Clinton was running for president in 1992 when Rector was put to death. Clinton ran as a Democrat. In those days, only 10 years ago, most Democrats opposed capital punishment. It is safe to say that nearly all Democrats then were opposed to executing retarded people, no matter how severe their crimes."
it's nice to pretend you're in the back room with the big boys smking cigars. But enough with the slacker, pseudo-rad shit.
Feminist? You're kidding me.
This is plain silly. Your being attacked for simply being attractive.
I have seen this picture several times before now and never gave the picture a second thought.
These people are out of line. Women have it hard enough, we need to stick together and certainly shouldn't be attacking other women and especially over things like this.
Men well, many of them just have to comment about everything that they see.
The super-fantastic Larisa Alexandrovna from Raw Story asked me to post this here...
I am amazed that with all of the things going on in the world, Althouse
would focus on someone who happens to have breast, as women tend to do
and that while posing with others in a tight group, those breasts happen
to be in the picture, since most women cannot remove them. Shame on
Althouse and Ann, who needs to take a closer look at herself and ask
what she really is reacting to. I know Jessica and she is no Monica
Lewinsky. I don't know Ann, but it is clear that she is not an
intelligence or honest woman, which is a shame. We as women have many
adversaries, including our own kind. It is sad to see yet another such
adversary added simply because breasts are more important to her mind
than the wonderful work Jessica has been doing. Shame on you Ann. You
owe Jessica an apology.
Thanks to Larisa Alexandrovna for sharing this with us. And Jessica, I know you only for the (intertube) company you keep, but that's good enough for me.
(I got here via jmhm. )
The whole "Kerry intern" brouhaha was started by some people who ASS-U-MEd that because Kerry wanted to talk with a young woman who was enthusiastic about politics, the two of them must really be enthusiastic about, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more.
It's amazing how far one can get in journalistic and political circles without graduating from the eighth grade.
What's all the fuss about? To respond is to play the victim. First off, the Republicans and so-called Conservatives lie. They continue to lie. The Republicans (and that includes Lieberman) tell lies so they can stay in power. They find weak spots and attack. Anything to "bring down", to belittle, to demean those they are afraid of. Why is everyone so surprised by this, so astonished, so affronted by it? If you expect them to lie, and anticipate it, as opposed to being blindsided by it, as Kerry was by the swiftboating, then you will perpetually be the victim. And the Democrats and Progressives have a long history of being aggrieved, of being the victims. Continue along that path, and once again you'll be a victim. As Morris Dees discovered, when you fight back, hit them hard, sue them where it hurts, make them pay dearly for each lie, then you will not be blindsided any more.
Second, it seems to me that the Democrats have been playing the victim, as in "Poor me!", for much too long. First, they let the Republicans mount an attack on them and their positions. Then they act surprised at the "bad" Republicans for doing this. Then they protest, calling what the Republicans do "dispicable" or "dirty tricks" or "untrue". All of which only makes the Democrats look even more like victims. And so they dig their own fate. I also sense that, when they do this and ring their hands, they are hoping the Republicans will receive their comeuppance from some mysterious force, and that they will self-destruct of their own accord. Act like a victim, end up like one.
So take action, support candidates, get out the vote, and give the Democrats the majority. (Sure the Democrats will turn into pork barrel purveyors, but not immediately.) As I told one woman, it's not important that the report is called "the Manpower Report"; what's important is that you have to become the boss who issues the report; then the title won't mean much.
Damnitol, Ms. Valenti, I just read your Guardian piece (aint yew so kewl!) and I am increasingly happy to make your tube acquaintance. Me: harmless, your Grampa.
Ivan Lenin: Do you or do you not want to live and breath outside of a sphincter?
The relevance of my question matches the relevance of yours.
Why does Ann Althouse even GIVE A SHIT about Jessica's breasts? It's not as though Jessica would even want some old, rude, pervert looking at her chest, nevermind commenting about it with about as much intelligence as a five-year-old. No, wait. A five-year-old wouldn't actually CARE.
Was Althouse the ugliest girl in her class when she was younger or something? Because damn, she's a mean old bitch.
Hi Jessica.
I read your statement and found myself moved by your situation. I too have been treated like an object of desire rather then a serious person whose opinions have intellectual value.
Of course I really enjoyed it. But that is just me.
I did, however, blog about your situation and afforded it the seriousness that I felt it deserved.
So are you single?
Much Ado About Nothing
Can you guys please stop calling Althouse ugly or old? It reeks of whatever you call the intersection of sexism and shallowness that is judging women by their looks.
The point isn't that she's ugly and old whereas Jessica is attractive and young. If Lindsay or Jill suddenly converted to anti-feminism and started disparaging Jessica by offering bullshit analyses of her posture, it would still be equally sexist, heinous, and idiotic.
While I believe there is an element of sexism in the snarky comments re: the fact the group photo with Clinton does indeed suggest that you have breasts (perhaps they would prefer you in a burka?), I think that this is more about the Right's rabid and inexplicable Clinton hatred. It's their silly, paranoid caricature of Clinton as a slobbering satyr who can't pass up the opportunity to grope a boob. My hope is that this wastes no more of your emotional energy than it takes to roll your eyes.
Don't know if this has been shared, but thought it was funny. Pulled it off Eschaton comments:
http://static.flickr.com/89/242615130_44e711ee6b.jpg
Annoyance about "burka" comments notwithstanding, I sympathize with you, Jessica. People are idiots, and I'm very happy that you were able to represent feminist bloggers at the event with President Clinton.
I am proud of you and I believe that Bill was lucky to have met you.
I bet not as lucky as he'd hoped he'd get. :)
Uh, Ann Althouse is not blogging from the Right, so I am afraid you will have to make recourse to another bugaboo.
"Uh, Ann Althouse is not blogging from the Right, so I am afraid you will have to make recourse to another bugaboo."
I stole this from another thread:
"Ann Althouse is as liberal and as feminist as I am a cucumber."
The woman blogged for Instapundit. Please. Nothing about her weblog screams liberal or feminist.
I think that is much ado about nothing. You were wearing something formal. Just a shirt with busniess pants. I think Ann Althouse's dress code for all women would include a vail, a long, ugly, and archaic skirt, and a collar with a GPS system so that your domineering dickhead spouse can locate you.
To attack you for your harmless attire is petluant and frivilous. Ann is an anti-feminist conservative. She has conservative ads and bashes democrats on her blog. To say that she is a feminist is to say that the earth is flat. Wear what you want and say what you want Jess! Don't let servile women like Ann tell you otherwise!
Sorry, I didn't mean that Althouse is ugly. It just bothers me when women her age go on and on about what younger women wear, how they look, how they pose and so on. Does it really matter to her so much how a (intelligent, pretty) woman stands?
Jess - you rule, and everyone that reads this site knows it. don't worry about the other sites - they are clearly "mean girls" just waiting to pounce on a smart, sassy writer like yourself. i can't even believe there is a controversy. you are wearing a grey shirt. i am astounded by the amount of hate floating around all because you wore a shirt that wasn't 5 sizes too big and made of hemp or something. ugh. i support you, even though i'm not really sure what i'm supporting! you rock!
Jessica, I commend you for NOT conforming to the hairy/manly/prude feminist stereotype and truly believing that what you wear and how you FUCKING STAND should have nothing to do with the way you conduct yourself as a feminist or the way others perceive you. This is yet another attempt by conservatives to show that OBVIOUSLY if you're a feminist, you're either a slut, a lesbian, or stupid.
Silly me, I forgot to bind my breasts before work.
This may very well be the biggest affront to actual reality of the year.
Ann closed her comments, so I wrote a post about the whole ordeal.
here.
I can't even begin to fathom the world in which Ann lives. Where having breasts means you can't be sufficently feminist.
Am I out because I've got a penis? Or because I enjoy breasts? 'Cause that, seriously, changes my worldview. I've got to start beating kids and calling people 'sugartits' now that I can't be feminist.
I'm a few days late to the hullaballoo, but jeez.
Jess, you're beautiful without even trying, that's clear. Althouse is just sour grapes.
Fact is, women like Althouse have absorbed the message that women are damned if they're ugly, and damned if they're beautiful, and damned if they're in-between.
So just love being where you are, and don't worry about her and the catty cabal. Looks are only an issue when someone like Alhouse can't resist raising it.
Does it mean anything to hear this from some random weirdo on the internet? Probably not, but I'll say it anyway.
You were right to call Althouse out on her behavior. She was inexcusably rude. Worse, she didn't even have the courage to admit that she intentionally tried to hold you up to mockery. Instead, she tried to paint some grand moral justification, as if there's ever any justification for that kind of behavior.
What pisses me off the most about it is that it's so bleeding petty and juvenile.
I know this is a late response to this Blog. But I had to signup and make a comment, that most people won't see, because the story in this internet age is old. The Ann Althouse Blog posting and her follow-up justifications were just pathetic.
Note: I have never read any Blog posting from either Ann Althouse or Jessica. I had no previous opinion of either.
How I found this Blog was through a hyper-link to the original Ann Althouse Blog. Something perked my interest so I clicked on the link.
Before I saw the picture, I expected Jessica to be half naked [little exerated]. But after seeing the photo in question I just had to shake my head in amazement. I saw nothing inappropriate. She was standing with the same stance as almost everyone else. I just saw an attractive person posing [everyone was posing] for a photo. Jessica did not appear to be attempting to stand out in anyway. There was nothing wrong with her clothing. Nothing in the photo caught my eye, and had it not been pointed out, I would not have even noticed Jessica.
It almost seems Ann Althouse was jealous. Or possibly Ann was just waiting for a photo so she could rant and get something off her chest [no pun intended]. If Jessica had been slumped over and frowning I would have thought, that Jessica had no self confidence. In the photo see comes across as someone who has confidence and is a happy and well adjusted.
It also bugged me in the original post that Ann tried to answer a question directed to another blogger. The blogger was also bothered by Ann stepping in.
Well I won't go on. I just had to give my support to Jessica. Jessica did not deserve the negative attention from Ann's disapproval of her perception of what she perceived was Jessica's intentions or lack of intention in the photo.
People talk about my image
like I come in two dimensions
like lipstick is a sign of my declining mind
like what I happen to be wearing
the day that someone takes a picture
is my new statement for all of womankind
Ani DiFranco, Little Plastic Castle
I just read the article you wrote for the Guardian where you mentioned this situation - talk about a storm in a teacup (or should that be a b-cup?). From the comments said about you I was expecting a low-cut top with your cleavage hanging out but someone commenting on your pose it this photo is ridiculous! Actually even if you did have your boobs hanging out it would be unacceptable but to even point you out is crazy-talk.
Congratulations on being invited to meet Clinton, it really is an honour.
^_^; I'm kind of confused about your pose... It's the exact same pose they use for all the kids in my cousins elementary school. Does this mean those kids are rampant "whores" or something?
I think the lady may have been a bit jealous she wasn't the one invited to dine and be in the center. Unfortunately, as much as I wish someone could say, "Oh, all feminists have moved past jealousy issues," it just isn't true.
Wow. This is really old now but I just came across a huffingtonpost article about it. Thank goodness for internet drama or I'd never be directed to excellent blogsites like this one. I don't really understand the theme - there seems to be some objection to your possessing boobs? Either way it is nice to traverse the gauntlet of slavering anti-thewrongkindoffeminist posts and end up somewhere that might actually help me in my own quest to figure out what on earth it means to me that I'm female. So! Ta very much. : ) Now I suppose I should bookmark this site and get back to work. You know. In a minute.
Posing?! lol Yeah, not facing the camera is posing. I also think your sleeves are a little long there- not much of a good slut either.... what does one do?..
I actually wasn't sure which one you are. But if I was going to be a self-proclaimed feminist veteran who wants to attack one of the young women who are to continue my legacy, I'd go for the lovely blonde with the mini dress cleavage thing going on. Much easier to attack and she's got that angle from the camera thing going on, too... the whore!
That woman doesn't deserve any of the attention she's getting at the price of your abuse. Rock out with your tits out sister!