I switched the scene in my head so that it was black men being auctioned off, imagining that if this were the case, the whole world would be going NUTS over this news.

As it stands, the world will probably go, "ho hum."

I'm so mad right now I could spit.

hedonistic - Well said.

What has the reaction to this been in the UK, so far? While the article just came out just yesterday (at least that particular article), and there is time for outrage to build, I have a feeling you are right about the world basically going, "ho hum".

Sickening.

So, if someone kew about this, why weren't the auctioneers and bidders killed on the spot.
I'd be OK with that.

Ew. How can any man possibly patronize one of these places? As a male adult this makes me sick.

i try really hard not to blame this entirely on men, but it's actually really, really hard. men are the auctioneers, men go to these places, men are the ones that can't keep it in their pants. ugh.

right there with you, angryleft...

katie, I presume you blame it on the men who do it, not on the men who don't. You've no reason to try hard not to blame it on *them*. After all, they are responsible, so blame is due.

Is there at least a law in place that would charge the 'customers' of those forced into prostitution with rape?

clearly i am blaming the ones who do do it. however, i dont see outrage either on the part of world leaders who are mostly men. its just hard when really, its almost exclusively men and no women who perpetuate it, it makes you wonder about the sex as a whole.

forgive me, i am just particularly annoyed right now.

Well, an issue like this would fall into the hands of our very own Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice.

If you are an American, perhaps you can bring it to her attention, and see how much action is taken...

Since the Secretary of State's area of expertise is foreign affairs.

Also, Katie, you do realize that women are brothel customers as well, don't you?

I don't know how it is in non-english speaking parts of the world...but at the brothels in Nevada and Amsterdam, a great portion of the customers are women. (I think the estimate is like 25 percent and rising).

So, it's not just men who "can't keep it in their pants".

TT: Where are you getting that number? For Nevada, at least, that utterly contradicts everything I've ever read on the subject.

where ARE your numbers? because i was recently in amsterdam for a week and didnt see a single women entering those places. 25% i think you are out of your mind

There has been a country wide crackdown effort, but the intent of it is confusing. In general, *crackdowns* of sex trafficking just push them further underground and aren't very helpful. But I will look more into it tonight.

Furthermore, I have to agree with hedonistic and that is exactly what I was thinking when I read this. If this was a group of black men being auctioned, the world would be outraged, as they should be, but that would be considered horrible and unjust, as it would be. The fact that these are mostly women from 3rd world diaspora makes them insignificant or at least more of a commodity.

ok hujo, you making random comments with nothing to back it up is completely ludicrous and a waste of everyone's time and space. men are slaves (more than likely male CHILDREN) however, at no point does the number of males that are trafficked come anywhere near the females. seriously get it together and stop writing stuff just for the sake of writing.

"In general, *crackdowns* of sex trafficking just push them further underground and aren't very helpful."

Where is your evidence for this?

Do you know that Operation Pentameter in the UK has uncovered webs of traffickers across the UK and women who have been forced into sexual slavery. Do you think the UK authorities shouldn't crack down on this? That they should leave those women to be raped by tens of men every night?

Trafficking of women for men's sexual use has exploded across the world because authorities have stopped cracking down on it.

What's your solution?

Well the groups and organizations that try to fight this problem, like amnesty or unicef, are comprised of men and women. So lets stop making me and all the other men disgusted and saddened by this practice all responsible. please.

does anyone have any statistics about how many men worldwide (or %) have visited a prostitute. bc i hold every single one that has responsible.

God called, he said he wants his job back.

I think that sex trafficking is simply awful and that all governments should be doing more to stop this activity and protect the women who are being abused. That said, I have to comment on the "if black men were being auctioned" comments. Slavery still occurs in parts of Africa (like the Sudan) and it took an enormous period of time for governments to work up moral outrage at the killing in Darfur. So I think your "black male" comments are unjustified. Patriarichal societies don't value women, but they also consistently place lesser value on people of color, men included.

I don't know numbers across the world, Katie, but one in ten British men has used a prostituted woman -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4488254.stm

The number has doubled in a decade which has led to a massive increase in trafficking of women to meet men's demand for women's bodies. Stories like this one, where women are being auctioned, will continue whilst men think they have the right to pay to use a woman's body for sex.

the main problem i see with the analogy with the "group of black men" is that it assumes that it would be a group of african-american men. african men are still enslaved in many circumstances and there's really not a lot of outcry about it.

further, women and men are enslaved all over the world right now. a large majority of these people were not born in "first world" nations. in addition to a bias of not considering women as highly as men, there's a real confluence of class, race and language issues at work in why outrage is not so strong.

the fact is, most human trafficking at this point is of women (~80% according to iabolish) - the overwhelming majority having to do with sex work (iabolish states that $6m of the $9m made in the modern day slave trade is from sex work).

however, even when it is men who are being trafficked - african, eastern european, asian, south american and mexican women and men are being bought and sold - there's very little outcry about it.

further, and maybe this is too cynical, but i think the only reason why a group of black men would cause more of a stir than the women in question is because, as a society, we've already gone over this and it's determined that chattle slavery of black people is not acceptable in the public sphere.

slavery of clothing workers and debt bondage of migrant farm workers is widely known about but not acted on.

why?

i think it's because it's not impacting middle class people's lives on the day-to-day. while plenty of people disagreed with slavery in principle before the civil war, it was the explosive conflict sparked by "terrorists" such as john brown and nat turner that really galvanized people.

and, hujo, i'm really not big into the whole "we've paid our dues" argument. moving forward as a people requires constant vigilance. simply stating that there are men working at amnesty doesn't get men off the hook for being the organizers behind all of this.

my objection to holding all men responsible for this horror is that it doesn't hold women as responsible as they should be. most people commenting on here are complicit in slavery.

check your clothing tags. got something from "myanmar"? "china"? "guatemala"? "southern california"? you eat florida peaches? you like berries?

this whole setup is pretty damn pernicious.

what's also at stake, here, hujo, is that, as stated above, 80% of slavery in the world is estimated to be sex slavery. considering the consumption model in this case, it's men enslaving women. there's something really wrong with our collective psychology - even if most of us are good guys - and we need to figure out what to do about it.

heights and blessings

ps. sorry for the rambling... working addles my brain.

Katie, statistics I've seen put prostitute-using men in Britain at around 10% of all men and in the USA it's somewhere around 15%. Worse, a 2005 British study on STDs found in 1990 one in twenty male respondents said they had bought sex at least once and by 2000 the figure had risen to one in ten.

Some people talk about prostitution like it's a natural part of masculinity that can't be stopped so we should learn to live with it, but if British men's demand for prostitutes can fully double in ten years then it's not as naturally immovable as naysayers protest and therefore decrease-able if the political will existed.

Puck...

I know we've clashed before, but I agree with your point 110 percent.

all fair points about people being enslaved everywhere, but are those people being sold (as far as we know) in HEATHROW AIRPORT?!!!!

while it doesnt make it any better or worse, the fact is, here we have slavery being negotiated in public places in 1st world developed countries. We arent talking about the Congo national airport here.

It makes our beliefs that we are somehow more "advanced" even more ludicrous.

It don't think it would matter if they were African American men--they're not exactly a demographic that elicits widespread outrage when gross injustices are done to them.

It seems like there's a concerted campaign to stop anything from being done about sex slavery. When The New York Times Magazine published a story about it, Slate's Jack Shafer wrote several columns accusing the piece of being sensationalized and poorly sourced, even though it seemed about comparable to other investigative pieces and, as far as I recall, didn't have any major errors. The same thing happens when articles about sex slavery are posted on Metafilter and other supposedly liberal blogs.

I know it's not really a coordinated effort; people just hear "sex" and the self-appointed media critics decide either that it's a trashy tabloid subject that no respectable newspaper should cover, or that it's on a par with "Is [X] Killing Your Kids?" scare stories.

Carla-

Where were you when the Rodney King verdict was announced?

right on puck.

Puck you are totally right. I think when I used that analogy I should have clarified that it is not because the modernizing world has gotten any less racist, but because it had happened already and there is a discourse surrounding it along with some basic general belief that it is wrong (even though the aftermath of the enslavements of people from Africa resonates strongly today).

I am saying it is slavery and there should be an outcry over it.

Here is a related story on CNN:

U.S. warns Germany on World Cup sex workers

These are nothing but words, and they are focused on an individual event rather than a worldwide problem, but it is a start.

Puck

I must admit you’ve gone down a peg in the old credibility dept. since you got last words in a closed thread, but you make a good point, I am just not sure how it relates to my post.
My post was a reaction to Katie’s sexism, nothing more, you do have a good point about us ALL being responsible, but my point was not, “we paid our dues so we are allowed to be apathetic�

It was, all men are NOT responsible and in fact the organizations that fight this let alone create awareness are police organizations comprised mainly of men.
How can we say it is all the men to blame or even a collective psychology(puke) when men are risking their lives trying to stop it. It has become so easy overlook the good men.
It makes no sense beyond a scapegoat.

It is a problem created by the few and looked down upon in disgust by the majority of PEOPLE(remember that word?)
So taking an issue like sex slavery and simply equating it to "all men can’t keep it in their pants" is hatful and creates apathy in and of itself.
It is absolutely no help or solution to anyone but anti-male feminist trying to write a book.

If you can explain to me in detail how male collective conscience advocates slavery, I would appreciate it.(I do not consider "you don’t get it" a good rebuttal)

I mean look at us, you and me are both men (though I now suspect you might be Jessica) and we despise this practice, not a single guy has come into the thread and advocated it.

Is it just that all the anti-male rhetoric you have picked up in your time being a feminist has warped your outlook on what men’s consciousness is? Sorry but I think that has some validity.

And Puck

Paternity fraud is apparently around 30% so 3 in ten women lie about affairs and lie about the father of the child, compared to the 1 in ten men that visit prostitutes.

I don’t think that either of these statistics can be used to incriminate the entire gender, but you do, so I am very interested in what you have to say about female collective conscious regarding this point as well. : )

(I have links for PF they wont post!!!!)

Also, when thinking about statistics like the amount of men in the U.K. and Europe who go have solicited the services of a prostitute, you have to remember that not all sex workers are sex slaves. Some of them are actually treated quite well. Especially in Europe. The sex slaves that are supposedly auctioned in this "market" are not utilized by most who solicit prostitutes.

There is a huge difference in utilizing the services of a prostitute and supporting sex slavery.

There is a huge difference in utilizing the services of a prostitute and supporting sex slavery.

No, there isn't.

If men didn't use prostitutes, sex slavery wouldn't exist. Using prostitutes DOES support sex slavery.

It increases demand. Increased demand requires increased supply, which is inevitably going to be met mainly by trafficking.

Also, how do you know when you consort with a prostitute whether she is one of the "good kind"? Do the happy prostitutes have a special card they can carry to prove they have not been trafficked, victimised or coerced into the sex trade?

i think around 30% of the legal prostitutes are trafficked. just bc prostitution is leggal doesnt mean that how they get there is.

-Naive- I don't consort with prostitutes, so I wouldn't know.

Your argument was recently utilized by the United States Government in an advertising campaign aimed at fighting drug use. The basic idea was "if you support drug use--you support terrorism".

I didn't buy into their argument then, and likewise I'm not buying into the argument that supporting prostitution is supporting sex slavery.

Katie-I don't know what "leggal" means, but I suspect it has something to do with "eggos". And I was mainly referring to illegal prostitutes...not ones that reside in Amsterdam. Sorry to be opaque.

okay, i have a fair amount more to say on this, but...

I mean look at us, you and me are both men (though I now suspect you might be Jessica) and we despise this practice, not a single guy has come into the thread and advocated it.

i'm too busy pissing myself.

jess, if we're the same person, we should definitely hang out more... i mean, we do live in the same neighborhood (oh, wait, you ditched bk, didn't ya'?)...

oh, well... it's still ridiculous that i've only seen you when sami's in town... i guess i just don't look in the mirror enough, since we are the same person and all.

back to hujo...

first off, i don't care what my esteem is in your eyes. let's get that straight.

as far as the 3/10 figure, that figure (if it's even accurate; i've only ever seen it on men's rights groups websites) refers to 30% of disputed paternity claims in cases where a test is required. that means that 3/10 women who fight with a man over paternity all the way to a doctor's office are incorrect.

this figure also means that, in 7/10 cases, there is a man who has refused to support his child. hmmm...

however, it does not mean that 7/10 men don't support their children. that would be an absurd manipulation of statistics. it means that, in disputed

it also does not mean that 3/10 women are wrong about who their children's father is. it means, as i stated above, that 3/10 women who have a paternity dispute that requires testing are wrong about who the father is (notice the discrete difference between "wrong" and "lying", because there is one, and not all of those women are necessarily lying... i've been wrong at times when i was just wrong - not lying).

a similar statistic would be if 1/10 UK men who frequent brothels have sex with prostitutes - but the number cited above is 1/10 UK men. apples and oranges.

by the way, if you haven't read it, i did get your joke in the other thread, my response just wasn't very creative and didn't carry my chuckle well through the internet. the fire and brimstones bit was tight.

oh, wait, but we're talking about human trafficking, not paternity disputes... did i just get sidetracked? dang.

Yep you ignored my direct question to back up your claim that men’s collective psychology is responsible or creates sex slavery. I thought it would be fun to hear your views on female collective psychology regarding paternity fraud.

So, how does sex slavery as you say reflect male collective psychology? While you’re at it, how does pf reflect female collective psychology?

(My unpostable PF links are from usatoday.com, law.com and the Canadian children’s rights council. Got an e-mail they are yours!)

Not so much "back up your claim" but explain what you meant in greater detail. Sorry

Are you really arguing that out of ten of us posting on this thread Hujo, three have got it wrong about who are fathers are because our mothers lied?

That's the craziest bit of men's rights nonsense I've seen this week.

Well its not really fair for you to say that if i cant post links!
I will try to link links on my bb.

http://www.hottopictalk.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=1059#1059

It's not really fair to say men are the ones that "can't keep it in thier pants". It might be fair to say women have an easier time getting sex for free and visit on the side lovers as opposed to prostitutes.

So puck how is it that all women share responsiblity for this?

Are you really arguing that out of ten of us posting on this thread Hujo, three have got it wrong about who are fathers are because our mothers lied?

It probably is what he is trying to say. Unfortunately, it is 30% of contested paternity beliefs where the man is not the father. Which, like puck pointed out , would mean that in 70% of contested paternity, men who are fathers deny - in one form or the other - that they are. In reality, however, breaking down the numbers will likely show how it is more complex with instances of the woman having been raped and assumed it was his (or a father believing the baby may not be his if the woman was raped) or a test a father demands on his wife to break away at her character in court saying her sleeps around (even if he comes out as the father, it still sticks). It is weird MRA stat twisting, like how they take unfounded rape claims in a local area and use the percentage of them proven to be false (or just including the unfounded cases) as amounted to the overall national figure of false rape claims.

Whatever durga I feel sorry for you. :(

I have links, they spell it out, still with the desperate smear attempts.

It is actually 30% of women tested for dna that are found out to have committed paternity fraud that means it could in actuality be a much higher or lower number.

I was not addressing anyone but puck, and my point was, women are no perfect angels when it comes to sexual morals.

If puck can find no problem when it comes to holding all of men responsible for prostitution then he should have no problem holding all of women responsible for pf.

What I am trying to say is that puck has blatant double standards.

Anyone that would try to paint all men with the same brush should be willing to do the same to women.

Imy point is when you do it to women we see how hatfull and unfair it is to criminalize the majority for the few.

That was my message.

Actually, Hujo, the same system is responsible for both (not that paternity fraud is as widespread, or as much of a dire violation of rights as prostitution), but they both result from a system that promoted women and children as male property, puts women in economic jepardy, makes them the primary caretakers, and emphasizes that their primary value is sexuality (which, with hetrosexual intercourse, can be realted to childbirth). Same system screws both sides, Hujo. Wanna fix it? Join the movement.

You obviously didnt check the links, Paternaty fraud can lead to dead children and i think it is childish that you guys are desperate to peove men go to prostitutes more than women cheat.

You really missed mypoint.

I cant join the movment; I am a striaght white male and i like who i am. Sorry.

And you, quite obviously, are either too lazy to or incapable of thinking.

Hujo, admit it. You're a one trick pony who regurgitates the same tired arguments time after time to no effect. Get some new material....

I am adressing pucks argument.

Get an opener mind.

No effect! please!

Hujo:

Specifically, as pointed out once before, it's 30% of women who have been DNA tested because there has been an active claim of paternity fraud, and even in that, the study failed to account for a number of situations in which the man involved was not the biological father, but was in fact the legal father anyway. This is a complex issue, where biological paternity is not the end-all, and in any case the 30% number has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked. What it actually measures is the percentage of accusations of paternity fraud in Michegan where the woman is tested and the man is not the biological father. That's it. The actual estimated percentage of paternity fraud in the United States has been estimated at about 1%, not 30%, and certainly less than the 10% estimate for use of prostitutes by men.

Give it a rest.

Not that any of this is relevant. It makes no sense in any case to weigh one kind of harm against another by percentage of population.

Your basic point, that it is counterproductive to hold a grudge against all men for the actions of a minority, is one I agree with; it is just not one well served by the waving of bogus statistics and an attempt to throw similar blame on women.

For Katie:

I'd like to point out the following: of those police officers and other officials involved in investigating and ending sex slavery, the majority are also almost certainly men. This is for the same reason that the world leaders that aren't raising as much of a fuss as you'd like are also mostly men: there are more men in those positions. Of those in positions of power, being a woman is no guarantee of attention to such matters either: witness Condoleeza Rice and Kathleen Blanco.

The number of men who look the other way may be greater. It probably is greater, given the social limitations. It's not something I know how to find numbers on. There's obviously a problem if this kind of thing can happen in broad daylight in a major airport. Unless you have a miracle in your pocket, however, fixing it will probably require help from both men and women. Please try not to hate men all at once. It makes them less willing to lend the help that you need, even if it's help that should be offered regardless. This will likely remain true even once the gender disparities in these lines of work are corrected.

Your basic point, that it is counterproductive to hold a grudge against all men for the actions of a minority, is one I agree with; it is just not one well served by the waving of bogus statistics and an attempt to throw similar blame on women.

ARRGH YES you got it but you got it wrong! I was trying to use PF against women to show how ridiculous it is to hold a grudge against all men for the actions of a minority!!!!

That was the whole point! But people only read me the way they would like me to be, a troll.

Puck said men share collective responsibility for sex slavery, I disagreed, so I was trying to say, "oh yeah lets see if you can say that about women" my hopes were he would see that he couldn't because it would be misogynistic of him. I could have attacked the prostitution stats and said that it does not properly measure men that support the sex slavery but the stats were not the point!!! The shared responsibility was!!

When we have people or mra's that say PF shows women are all inherent evil and misandrous this is AS wrong. You all tried to attack this when said about women but you ignore that you are complacent and apathetic when the same broad stroke tactics are used to criminalize all of men.

It breaks my heart. : (

don't hurt yourself, hujo.

i've never said that all men frequent prostitutes. what i have said is that there's something we, as men, can do about the problem of sex slavery than women possibly cannot. this is because an overwhelming majority of consumers are men and men trust men...

and when men, like TheTruth, who've never been to a prostitute, call other men "pimp" because they're dressed nicely, that makes it more socially acceptable to be involved in the sex trade.

this is how we bear responsibility. it doesn't mean we're all guilty of human trafficking, but whenever we do or say disrespectful things, it contributes to an environment in which our less righteous brothers feel more comfortable taking it to the next level.

further, what i actually said was "collective psychology", not "collective responsibility", although i would say the two go hand-in-hand.

what i'm talking about is the way that men are judged on their sexual conquests, the way we're encouraged to resolve problems with agression rather than by listening and working things out, etc., which, i'm sure you'll agree, is harmful to men as well as women... it's a problem within our collective psychology.

it's not about fault, it's about looking for the root of the problem.

the problem, in this case, being why an astounding number of our brothers have no problem taking advantage of modern-day slavery for their own pleasure.

as far as paternity fraud, i haven't found a lot of examples where that's encouraged in normal society. if women thought it was cool to talk about "pop out a baby and get some dough off that sucker", i'd be a little more incensed about it. however, considering that paternity fraud is perpetrated by, at most .5-1.5% of adult women, which is a lot less normalized than 10%. a lot.

however, i certainly think that women (and men) should not be enabling paternity fraud. i'd love to know the ways in which our society encourages PF, because it's absolutely terrible (if only mildly more common than murder).

in any case, i don't see anyone trying to "criminalize all of men" except, perhaps, katie, who said "i try really hard not to blame this entirely on men, but it's actually really, really hard" because men are, almost exclusively, the traffickers and consumers.

but she wasn't even criminalizing all men, just expressing a frustration at the fact that 80% of slaves right now are women and 66% of profits derived from slavery are from sex trafficking and 10% of men in the UK have visited a prostitute. and that there's not a huge outcry among men.

really, man. where's the criminalization of all men? i mean, i know you really want to feel like a victim, but neither misquoted statistics nor inventing people you want to argue with are going to get you anywhere.

for what it's worth, i'm a white man and i'm getting married to ann amazing, brilliant, spiritually true woman in a month and i out-and-out love myself (as i mentioned on another thread - and i'll keep saying it until everyone else out there loves me as much as i do!)...

so go on... keep feeling self righteous, like your boy, thetruth on his "quest".

peace and blessings

I'm not related to hujo, and he is not my father, therefore, I am not his "boy".

And actually, when I call someone pimp, we are consciously reflecting our disdain of the sex industry, but you are too uptight to even notice.

Thanks for appreciating my noble search for truth and justice. Your kind words have meant a lot to me!

Thanks puck, I only asked you to explain yourself in greater detail, which you did, thank you.

You really got to stop and look around before you make insults though old buddy, if you care to reread the thread my only beef was w/ katie and you were the one arguing my imaginary points sooo...???

I do thank you for being fair.

The feminists that twist and inflate dv and rape stats and the feminists that make the point that all men are to blame for dv prostitution and rape, even just by “not stopping it from happening� are the ones criminalizing men. Search on feministing for "man tax"

If it is not criminalizing the whole for the crimes of the few what term should I be using?

I know The Truth no more than you. Is it so hard to believe that men all over the place share some of the opinions we both express?

I have never known a single man to come out and say “yeah so I visited some Asian sex slaves last night! It was great!� It is retarded to say men outside the practice can stop it. We don’t know where it is, who is running it, or who is enslaved??? I can fight it by not going to a prostitute but no feminist will thank me for that because aperantly to be a worthy man I have stop every other man in the world from going too. : /

For society supporting Pf, google “cuckold porn�(ahh not so serious) aaaaaand check my bleeding links! LAW.com ( new article, not a mens or fathers site)… 38 states refuse to consider dna tests in custody and child support cases …um if that is not institutionalized oppression of males wtf is?

Yeah your wife can cheat on you, cuckold you, and make you pay for it all till “his� kid is 18!!! No biggie?!?!??

as a brit, this has gone pretty much undercover-the world cup is on don't you know?!
Tried to find some info about what was being done about this- but did you know that trafficking in scotland is dealt with by the DRUG TRAFFICKING agency! these poor women are not objects to be distributed. Is v symbolic of the lack of gender mainstreaming in the british police force -who also still clasify stranger rape as "real rape". ahh!!

as a brit, this has gone pretty much undercover-the world cup is on don't you know?!
Tried to find some info about what was being done about this- but did you know that trafficking in scotland is dealt with by the DRUG TRAFFICKING agency! these poor women are not objects to be distributed. Is v symbolic of the lack of gender mainstreaming in the british police force -who also still clasify stranger rape as "real rape". ahh!!

as a brit, this has gone pretty much undercover-the world cup is on don't you know?!
Tried to find some info about what was being done about this- but did you know that trafficking in scotland is dealt with by the DRUG TRAFFICKING agency! these poor women are not objects to be distributed. Is v symbolic of the lack of gender mainstreaming in the british police force -who also still clasify stranger rape as "real rape". ahh!!

Whatever durga I feel sorry for you. :(

Wow, that is like the last resort of a losing argument.

I have links, they spell it out, still with the desperate smear attempts.

I’m sorry I’m disagreeing with you on your take of free-flowing statistics. Actually, no I’m not.

It is actually 30% of women tested for dna that are found out to have committed paternity fraud that means it could in actuality be a much higher or lower number.

Once again, you’re still not breaking it down. Children being found out to not belong to the believed father does not by default amount to *fraud*. For one, it could be a result of rape; this has happened, especially given the number of women who get pregnant during rape. For two, it could have been from a previous marriage/encounter any number of genuine mistakes. Since it means so much to you, yes, there are articles on it-

http://www.aabb.org/

Advancing Transfusion and Cellular Therapies Worldwide

Conclusion from their Annual Report
http://www.aabb.org/About_the_AABB/Stds_and_Accred/ptannrpt03.pdf
"MISCONCEPTIONS IN PARENTAGE TESTING"
It is important to understand the significance of the exclusion rate, especially since the statistic has been misinterpreted in the past. For example, several organizations have used the exclusion rate to suggest improperly (ed.: considering the rationals they will give, I do not agree that the conclusion is improper.) that 30% of men are misled into believing they are biological fathers of children. This suggestion is incorrect. The exculsion rate includes a number of factors. One is that men are alleged to be fathers. This is important as a woman may allege several men as possible fathers because she was sexually active with these individuals. These are not men who were misled into believing they were fathers and then later discovered they are not. The testing merely sorts out which men is the biological father so presumably that man can assume his parental role. Another factor is that sometimes men are accused and tested because a man who is not excluded is alleging that the mother has multiple sexual partners as part of his defense. Sometimes a man is required to be tested because of legal presumption, that is, when the mother properly names the correct father but because she is (was) married to someone else, there is a legal presumption that the husband is the father. The husband is then tested to rebut the legal presumption, not because he was misled into believing he is the biological father of the child."

Third, this cuts two ways: if the number of contested paternity tests (which aren’t necessarily “contested� but often required for other reasons) are in fact 30% nationally (this is hypothetical, because it doesn't appear they are), then the number of men who deny their fatherhood to a child is 70%. If you want to argue it is higher/lower possibly for the number? Then do so. But it cuts both ways.

What I am trying to say is that puck has blatant double standards.

Well, then you’d better get your act together as far as your facts when you use an example 'cause nobody is going to refrain from pointing out your mistakes. Considering how you’ve treated people since you’ve come here with straw-men and derailing the topics and whatnot, that is being pretty friendly.

ellie,

Did you see the Daily mail headline on Thursday: 'marital rape to get the same sentance as gange rape' as if marital rape is more acceptable. Very infuriating...

Interesing comment on it inside this article (it's half way down)....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/0,,1793747,00.html

Well I trust my stats,(LAW.com) you trust yours, funny how that happens. And dont work up a sweat, PF and the the stats that came w/ it were brought up as a logic tool in an argument with PUCK.. Nothing more, funny how you disregard the 38 states that dont consider dna testing in custody and child support!! no big deal!
Considering how you’ve treated people since you’ve come here with straw-men and derailing the topics and whatnot, that is being pretty friendly.
Pot kettle black

exactly what imaginary points was i arguing against? this one (emphasis added):

Paternity fraud is apparently around 30% so 3 in ten women lie about affairs and lie about the father of the child, compared to the 1 in ten men that visit prostitutes.

it's pretty clear, from the law.com article, that paternity procedings need to be revised as our society changes. i definitely think establishing paternity is important in the short term... i still don't see how pf is really an accepted practice.

however, law.com does nothing to support your assertion that 3/10 women lie about who the father of their child is. One attorney, Paula Roberts, who has drafted laws to stem the tide of this flood of paternity fraud cases, stated "that actual fraud occurs very rarely, and that most men who challenge paternity do so only after a relationship sours. "

and if that's the unequivocal proof of the oppression of straight men, then it's really not that bad. we're talking about, at the very most, 90,000 men per year. considering that there's over 27m people enslaved right now, of whom 80% are women (27 x .8 = 21,600,000 women), i'd say we should count our blessings.

mind you, to get 90,000/ year up to 21m, it would take over 200 years.

aside from all that, durga's my homey... how did you dig that stuff up? dang.

keep saying i have double standards, man... keep saying it. it seems to make you feel good. doesn't change anything, but it makes you feel good.

thetruth,
sorry, i didn't get how you were reflecting your "disdain of the sex industry" when you said:

The watches themselves are very chic looking. I'd wear one.

So I guess you've never told a male friend that he looks very "pimp"?
i caught the implication in those phrases to be that pimp=chic. i never thought of chic as disdainful. hmm, maybe it's because i live in new york and we're so overrun with fashionistas... but maybe that's not what you meant in your apologia for the word "pimp".

as far as the "boy" thing... dang, that's just how i talk, okay... chill out. i'm not tryin'a make it seem like y'all know each other or are very young.

puck
Exactly what imaginary points was i arguing against? This one (emphasis added):
Puck you’re smarter than this, is this time wasting tactics or just childishness. This thread has gone way out of control, I was not trying to hijack the thread but was responding to these points of yours oddly referencing me. So to accuse me of arguing with imaginary points or whatever you said is just silly. You brought it here but…. you started it!!!
I try really hard not to blame this entirely on men, but it's actually really, really hard. men are the auctioneers, men go to these places, men are the ones that can't keep it in their pants. ugh.
Hujo Well the groups and organizations that try to fight this problem, like amnesty or unicef, are comprised of men and women. So lets stop making me and all the other men disgusted and saddened by this practice all responsible. please.
Puck and, hujo, i'm really not big into the whole "we've paid our dues" argument. moving forward as a people requires constant vigilance. simply stating that there are men working at amnesty doesn't get men off the hook for being the organizers behind all of this. my objection to holding all men responsible for this horror is that it doesn't hold women as responsible as they should be. most people commenting on here are complicit in slavery.what's also at stake, here, hujo, is that, as stated above, 80% of slavery in the world is estimated to be sex slavery. considering the consumption model in this case, it's men enslaving women. there's something really wrong with our collective psychology - even if most of us are good guys - and we need to figure out what to do about it.
I believe paternity fraud is a real valid issue a violation of men’s rights and an example of institutionalized oppression of males from the fabricated “patriarchy�, but that is not the topic, and there are some new studies in the works so I can wait for more info I am not claiming my stats are infallible just supported, outside men’s and fathers groups. As far as impact and implications it has a negative effect on society that should not be chalked up solely to female collective psychology anymore than sex slaves to male collective psychology.
I was not looking for a stat war or trying to prove anything.
To sum up um.. Viewing things in such black and whites is bad for everyone.

Sorry Hujo's response starts at.....

"I believe paternity fraud is a real valid issue"