The university has no objection to this, but you know damn well if they were wearing armbands reading, "Kill those Nazi rapists," they would.

Well, I would hope so. There's a rather large gulf of tone and intent between "innocent" and "kill those Nazi rapists". I would presume that "shut the lying bitch up" would be similarly frowned upon, even without the threat of mortal violence.

You wouldn't stand up for a friend that you believe is been accused of a crime he/she didn't commit?
I honestly don't understand how you link this to the complicity in "silencing and vicitimization of women of color", but besides that, you are obviously showing solidarity with the accuser. Why is that accepting and not the way around?
Being accused of a crime, and been actually found guilty of that same crime are two very different things, but it seems that you don't feel that way and that you already pronounced those men guilty.
Why?
Regarding the message, well it's simply freedom of speech, since as far as I know the men from the lacrosse team haven't been judged guilty and of course I agree with the post above about the differences between having a bracelet that says "innocent" and one that says "kill those nazi rapists".
So, please, tell me: if the solidarity of this women, that actually have the guts to stand up for their friends that they believe innocent, makes "our culture intolerable for me", what kind of solidarity is acceptable for you?

Has anyone been convicted yet? No? Then stop whining.

What they're doing isn't baout issues of race or gender, but that they want to support their fellow teammates if they believe they're innocent. What they're doing is no worse than what you're doing saying "It's only because she's black and a woman! Because she's so oppressed, she'd never lie!" and wearing an armband saying "guilty"

I think the media is the biggest racist of them all.

this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color.

You dont feel the least bit ashamed for using this case to perpetuate your anti-white agenda? They probably don't think much off the womens colour, but nice of you to make white people sound like a bunch of racists,all white team hey???? It is surprising to hear it said about women.

You dont think it is the press cashing in on the race story and you lapping it up?

You know that girl looks japenese in the pic and
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=285322
This girl looks black why is it white women only to blame for this?

In the AP story there is no mention of the womens skin colour? Very confusing Samhita?

I guess I have a different reaction.

The "no means yes" guys were absolutely stomach turning. Their message was not that the Duke lacrosse players had not committed rape, but that they had, and that that was OK. In their world, women exist solely for their pleasure, and they seem incapable of feeling even the slightest bit of empathy for what a rape victim might feel.

The Duke women's lacrosse team, on the other hand, does not seem to be making any such global statement about rape or sexual politics. Rather, they seem to be making a factual statement -- that they believe the defendants, who they know personally, are innocent. Obviously, they might be right about that and they might be wrong about that. But one can be a strong opponent of rape and advocate of victims' rights and still believe that a particular charge is unfounded.

I really enjoy this site and usually find it very informative but (you knew there had to be a but) I am so sick and tired of you making it seem like those boys were found guilty. In the good 'ole US of A you are innocent until PROVEN guilty, have you not heard of that before? Also do you live down here? I do and I was watching TV when the news broke, here was one of the 911 calls that you never ever heard of again. It was a women calling saying that 'her and a friend walked past the frat house a bunch of guys called out names to them and they didn't know what to do so they were calling 911 to report it because it made them so upset.' Then she starts crying, and it does sound very phony, but that is my opinion and she says 'they called us nigger,' and then very loud sobs 'we were just driving by boo hoo boo hoo'. Okay did you catch the discrepency here. First they were walking past and then they were driving past, umm which was it? or were did you do both and maybe you were antagonizing them? My belief is that is was a fake call, why? because it was found out to be the girl and her friend that was with her. For some reason you do not hear about this - it played once in the news in the very beginning and that was it. Is the DA hiding this? Are the defense attornies hiding this for an ace in their pocket? Who knows. There was also another call made afterwards which is also very confusing.
Do I a white female think they are innocent? Yes, until they have had their trial and are PROVEN guilty.
Do my black female friends think they are innocent? Yes for the same reason. Don't make this a black/white thing - there was enough of that going on in the beginning and nearly caused riots. How do we know this is not another Tawana Brawley case? Do you remember her? I do, I again lived not to far from where that happened.

Oh I also wanted to add - do I feel sympathy and compassion for the girl - of course I do. No woman should have to go through what she did.
Do I believe in those other guys chanting 'no means yes' of course not. We have come to far to slide back to that mentality - even though I know some still believe it.

In the good 'ole US of A you are innocent until PROVEN guilty, have you not heard of that before?

Legally, that is true. But nobody handed anybody her a gavel, ‘kay? Besides, you’re missing the whole point of what she means.

It was a women calling saying that 'her and a friend walked past the frat house a bunch of guys called out names to them and they didn't know what to do so they were calling 911 to report it because it made them so upset.' Then she starts crying, and it does sound very phony, but that is my opinion and she says 'they called us nigger,'

I heard the calls, it is all over the internet. I don’t know why you’re acting like it is being hidden. But anyway it sounded to me like it was the other woman crying. The reason the woman probably lied is because she had a warrant out, something understandable. You know, just like people say the Duke Men lying about it being 5 people, a bachelor party, lying about their names is understandable because they were “shy�.

"I mean they are making themselves look so stupid to stand in solidarity with accused rapists." - Samhita

I hope if I were ever accused of a crime, and the evidence was overwhelmingly in my favor, that my friends would stand in solidarity with me. Do you put your political agenda above your friends? If so, I guess we define “friendship� differently (also “accused�).

Did it occur to you that the women’s team might think the accused ARE innocent? Did it occur to you that the accused might BE innocent?

BTW, you forgot to trash the parents of the accused for standing behind their children in direct opposition to your politics. They are obviously racist and sexist.

"This is indeed the type of solidarity that often makes our culture intolerable for me." - Samhita

I suggest you work on trying to tolerate other people’s opinions, even when those people are of a different race than you.

"The university has no objection to this, but you know damn well if they were wearing armbands reading, 'Kill those Nazi rapists,' they would." - Samhita

So you are equating "kill those Nazi rapists" to "innocent"? Seriously?

I am curious what the rest of Femisting thinks of this post. Jessica, is Samhita's post representative of what this site is about? What do you think about this issue on a personal level? I have tried not to single out Samhita's posts in the past despite my personal opinion that they are not up to the level of intelligence of the rest on this site. In this case, however, I have to ask if Feministing as an organization stands behind this drivel.

Samhita has been copping a lot of flack lately regarding this issue. I think it's because in every article regarding this issue that she's written, she's stated that the La Cross players as a whole are guilty.

Ease up there Samhita, this whol sexist/racist thing you've got going isn't doing anything or your image.

I think it is important to keep in mind that while those three men may or may not be guilty of raping that girl, they definately are guilty of writing out emails saying it was ok and fun to rape and murder women. That is what makes this so appalling to me. Myabe they're innocent of rape, but their certainly not innocent of raging, violent, and disturbing misgony, which is enough to make it apalling that the women's team would support that.

It wouldn't matter if my friends were innocent or guilty of their accused crime, but if they punctuated their crime with a lot of scary hate speech, I would have to re-evaluate my friendship with such a person.

I personally don't care if they think the boys are innocent or guilty, or whether they wear those bracelets on their own time; I just think this has no place at a family sporting event.

The big question is, will they get pissy when Northwestern responds with trucker hats that say, "don't drop the soap!"

SarahS, all the email was was a reference to the movie American Psycho. The womens team knows the men a lot better than you ever will, and I get the feeling they wouldn't be absolutely jumping to their defense if the men were engaging in "raging, violent, and disturbing misogyny."

They know this stripper is a liar just like everybody else who's fairly looked at the evidence released so far. Is there any castration-type procedure that could be performed on her so she'll quit making up rape accusations?

My, my – look what Title IV has wrought. Not quite the solidarity the sisterhood was looking for.

“this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color.�

But of coarse it is Karl. It simply cannot be anything else. I suggest a show trail & re-education processing. Damn false consciousness!

I think that in the end, the truth will speak for itself. The Washington Post has an excellent article on this very topic that is being discussed here in this comments section.

"I think it is important to keep in mind that while those three men may or may not be guilty of raping that girl, they definately are guilty of writing out emails saying it was ok and fun to rape and murder women." - SarahS

Ryan McFadden wrote the tasteless email. David Evans, Reade Seligmann, and Collin Finnerty are accused of rape. If you don't know the basic facts of the case, please refrain from commenting on it.

"That is what makes this so appalling to me. Myabe they're innocent of rape, but their certainly not innocent of raging, violent, and disturbing misgony, which is enough to make it apalling that the women's team would support that.

It wouldn't matter if my friends were innocent or guilty of their accused crime, but if they punctuated their crime with a lot of scary hate speech, I would have to re-evaluate my friendship with such a person." - SaraS

What exactly are they guilty of? Someone at that party allegedly made a racist comment. Where did you see that it was one of these three? Where did you see that is was one of the lacrosse players (there were others at the party)? The dancers allegedly made racist and sexist comments to the players. Should we condemn any friends and family who support them, too?

Strange day it is when a woman stands up for the minor principle that a rape victim shouldn't be subject of endless assaults on her honesty and all she gets is abuse. Lesson: If you get raped, shut up about it because otherwise people will get the idea that there's something wrong with rape.

If it was a black man accused of raping a white women the press would be called racist for making it about race. They would be criminalizing a black man. When it is white on black it is a huge story that cashes in on societies new prejudice that white men are the only racists on the planet. This allways sells lots of papers regardless if their was actualy any racial motivation at all. (Katrina, McKinney)

I am staying the f away from this case because of the media. It is sick how “concerned� people capitalize on other peoples misery, be it the raped girl or the falsely accused men.

If I drew political cartoons I would depict mra's, feminist's, cival rights people and rednecks, all of them standing over, drooling and pulling at the limbs of this girl like a turkey wish bone all of them with dirty dollar bills in their back pockets.

Its sickning.

Calm down there Hujo. The media is only feeding off of what people will respond to seeing. As you say, they are selling papers. It's a business. Look at the 28 comments this thread has, far more than any other thread. People like to look at things through the prism of someone else's soap opera. In any case I'm trying to stay away from this story too, though I have a different take in that it does expose the class and racial and sexual divisions of society, except that it shouldn't take a story like this one to expose those divisions to discussion.

Why calm down? I write from the heart.

Samhita has been copping a lot of flack lately regarding this issue. I think it's because in every article regarding this issue that she's written, she's stated that the La Cross players as a whole are guilty.

You mean, other than in the post you're responding to, in which she said nothing of the sort? Wow, are you dumb.

Ease up there Samhita, this whol sexist/racist thing you've got going isn't doing anything or your image.

Just so you know: There's an "f" in "for." And an "e" in "whole." And an "idiot" at your keyboard.

Here's the strange thing - I've gotten more trolls when I've posted about the Duke rape case than any other issue in the four years I've been blogging. And it's not just me and Samhita. Every feminist blogger who has blogged about the Duke case, that I know of, has been deluged with previously-unknown levels of trollish idiotcy.

What's that about?

Here's what I think: A lot of people are outraged that a black stripper who isn't a "perfect witness" is being taken seriously. A lot of people are outraged that white lacrosse players are being inconvenienced by the tiny matter of a rape accusation.

People are pissed off because the fact that this woman's accusations are being taken seriously upends the established order of the universe. How dare they take her seriously! She's black! She's a stripper! She has a boyfriend, she claims to have been raped once before, and on and on and on.

It's all irrational. None of that proves she hasn't been raped. And in any non-racist, non-woman-hating system, accusations of rape should always be taken seriously and investigated.

So why are so many trolls so incredibly pissed off? Why has this case gotten their goat so much?

"So why are so many trolls so incredibly pissed off? Why has this case gotten their goat so much?" - Ampersand

Because this case is a prime example of people's political agendas superseding evidence of fact.

BTW - Calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll is pretty childish. Calling someone an idiot because because they forgot to spell-check their post is, too.

I don't have time to answer this with the attention taht I'd like to because I'm in the middle of moving and am literally on a uhual right now, but once I'm home I'll write something longer. For now I just want to say that Samhita is brilliant and I support her in all things. More to come once I'm moved...

“So why are so many trolls so incredibly pissed off? Why has this case gotten their goat so much?�

But it seems the trolls are not the only ones pissed off. It seems (from the subject of this post) that the all girls Duke lacrosse team is also rather upset. So upset so as to launch an informal protest & show of solidarity with their friends. Like I said, look what title VI has wrought?

“And in any non-racist, non-woman-hating system, accusations of rape should always be taken seriously and investigated.�

Well they are being taken seriously….and viewed as seriously specious by the very WOMEN who know these men most intimately. Quite the sisterhood, and at such a prestigious school of influence. All that work and mainstream womyn of power take the side of the patriarchy when reality dawns. Apparently they don’t think the whole Racist/Sexist thing does much for their image.

I can assure you that I’m not angry, rather amused.

"So why are so many trolls so incredibly pissed off? Why has this case gotten their goat so much?" - Ampersand

Because this case is a prime example of people's political agendas superseding evidence of fact.

No, it's not. It's not like the three accused players are being sent up a river without a trial; they're going to have a full trial and they have excellent lawyers.

And it's not like you know what the evidence really is, either. For the last several weeks, we've heard only what the defense attorneys have to say. We haven't heard it under oath, in an environment in which opposing council has a chance to ask questions.

That's not "evidence of fact." You don't seem to realize this, but you don't know if you know the full facts or not. You don't know what will stand up under examination and what will not. Your belief that you do know for certain what happened, before a trial even takes place, is the real example of a political agenda superseding evidence of fact.

I don't know if the players are guilty or not. My only "political agenda" here is that I think even a woman who is a (gasp!) stripper and is (oh no!) black and (horrors!) accusing nice college boys should have her accusation taken seriously and investigated. If that happens, and if there's a fair trial, then I'm satisfied.

Finally, I don't call anyone who disagrees with me a troll. There are many folks who have disagreed with me, who I'd never call trolls. I do call people who say abusive nonsense like "I suggest a show trail & re-education processing" trolls.

Learn the difference between intelligent, reasonable disagreement and trollhood. Pretending that objecting to the latter is the same as objecting to the former is not reasonable or honest.

Finally, I agree that spelling flames, including ones made by me, are stupid. So sue me.

I haven't made up my mind whether I think these boys are guilty of rape or other crime, but I have to side with Ampersand and Samhita here: the rumors about the victim/witness in question have entirely obscured the only hard information we have about the case:

1. The defense claim that the victim/witness gave several versions of her story is based on the initial call made by a security guard, his report, and another security guard's report. As an EMT I can assure you, third party 911 calls just about never tell us what's actually going on. We've been called for cardiac chest pain to find someone stabbed and rectal bleeding to find someone with a dog bite. The guards admitted she was hysterical when they found her and next to impossible to understand. Their own reports, written later, don't agree with each other. Having dealt with hysterical people, that's expected. They did the right thing calling the police and handing her off.

2. Trained medical professionals confirmed presence of evidence consistent with a violent rape during their pelvic exam in the ER.

3. Semen from three different men was found in her, leading to the defense claim that she had sex with three different men prior to going to the party. She's yet to release a statement contradicting her initial claim that she was raped by three men. (Admittedly, the DNA does not match the accused.)

4. Some level of force caused her to leave the party with bruises and fewer fingernails then she arrived with, as evidenced in the frat's own time stamped photos. She did not arrive dishevelled, least nowhere near so much as she left, contrary to the defense argument.

5. She left in such a hurry at one point that she left her belongings behind.

6. She's on record as having alleged a rape for which the suspect was not found guilty, this means only that there was insufficient evidence to convict the suspect of rape, not that she had lied. If there was sufficient evidence to try her for false allegations, she would have been indicted. Those demanding we wait for the trial to convict in the public square would do well to remember there's a similar courtesy for accusing witnesses.

Those are just a few of the facts as they stand in this case, my point being only that no one has proven the victim/witness a liar and I'm sick of seeing vitriol flung at anyone who stands up for her, especially from other women who are so quick to roll over and make nice with the accused rapist apologists. Do you think the particular men pointing fingers at rape victims will make an exception for you because you sided with them against another victim? Dream on. Here's hoping no woman has to learn that lesson.

Felix, how can you say OJ was "murderous"? He's never been found guilty at a trial, after all. If there's one thing I've heard from defenders of the lacrosse players a thousand times over, it's that it's wrong to say someone's guilty of a crime if they haven't been convicted in a court of law.

Don't you believe in "innocent until proved guilty?"

:-P

If you want to have an opinion about the duke rape accusation, that's fine. I have one too. Courts of law, judges and juries are obligated to assume "innocent" until a court of law proves otherwise, but you and I are not.

But I hope you'll acknowledge that your opinion could be mistaken. I don't think we know very much here at all, and I think it's an error to imagine you know anything for certain when we basically haven't heard anything for weeks but the defense lawyers' spins.

No one is saying "well she's a woman so we MUST believe her." That's a strawman. What people are objecting to is the rush to judgment from the "she's obviously a liar" crowd, before a trial has even happened.

What people are objecting to is the easy assumption that if a black single mother stripper accuses someone of rape, then she's probably a liar.

I don't know if a rape happened or not. But I know that the DA and cops are doing the right thing to not assume she's a liar; and I know the "screw having a trial! She's obviously a liar!" crowd isn't making an argument based in reason.

Why the retreat from the actual substance of the post into another fruitless discussion of potential guilt or innocence? (going wide?) Why the specious observations on looming “trolls� and their inner motivations. (dime store Freud?)

Why not a full throated defense of Samhita’s own observation?

“But really, this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and victimization of women of color. I mean they are making themselves look so stupid to stand in solidarity with accused rapists. Have gender relations in upper middle class white world shifted such a small bit? I mean really?�

I think these womyn look brave and loyal myself.

felix didn't you promise us you were leaving for that better site?

first off, i support this posting because it is very, very ridiculous for the (white) women to show their support for alleged rapists--

second, whether you folks want to accept the truth or not, this is a "black/white" issue. this is the united states dammit, where race/racism is ALWAYS at play.

third, samhita, you hit the nail right on the head. and yes, i am showing her solidarity because she is a woman of color--shit, that's all whites let us have.

Fitz, I am also rather amused. I am amused at your reference:

Like I said, look what title VI has wrought?

Title IV of what? You claim to be a lawyer. you claim to be a trial lawyer, IIRC. You wrote it twice, which essentially excludes the possibility of typographical error: apparently you did mean to type "title VI." What provision of what statute are you talking about?

“But really, this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and victimization of women of color. I mean they are making themselves look so stupid to stand in solidarity with accused rapists. Have gender relations in upper middle class white world shifted such a small bit? I mean really?�

In the primate world chimpanzees have been found to be war-like animals, invading other 'tribes', killing the pregnant or nursing females, eating the babies and then raping the fertile females.

And all during these raids, the alpha females of the offending pack aid and abet in the killing, cannibalism and raping. That is, until the males find new alpha-females in the conquered tribe to replace them.

These women are just reacting like the alpha-females they believe to be. Because, you know, they're going to become useless to the guys pretty soon.

It's just the law of their jungle.

Where's the part where the non-alpha female jungle chimpanzee fabricates that she was raped?

a lot of folks are talking about the guys are innocent until proven guilty. however, those same folks are yelling about the victim as being a "liar." why is she already proven to be guilty of lying...

oh yeah, she's black. i forgot.

"It's just the law of their jungle:

The one in the glasses to the left of the photo dont look like an Alpha to me.

First of all, due to the fact that Feministing has a policy that doesn’t condone name-calling and offensive language, we will delete comments and ban users that continue to attack Samhita or anyone on the site.

In addition to Samhita’s thoughts on this post (which I totally support), maybe a reason why these girls are doing this is a kind of coping mechanism. They are friends with and see the male lacrosse team on a regular basis, and are supporting them with the hope and need to believe that they, as women, are safe at their own school. After all, if the rape was committed by the three lacrosse players, then these girls would be at risk of being raped as well.

Additionally, I’m going to say in response to the perception that people seem to have that Feministing has automatically convicted the Duke players, is that we, as feminists, have a responsibility not to deem the lacrosse players as rapists, but to support this woman who obviously had something traumatic happen to her and is blatantly being demonized by the media and the masses. (Many of these comments are proof of that!)

And lastly, to criticize Samhita’s writing or character and falsely accusing her of things she never even wrote is inappropriate and tasteless. She’s merely discussing the sexist/racist issues surrounding this case and to give her shit for that is just -- for lack of a better word -- silly. After all, did y’all forget our name is Feministing?

"OHMIGOD, whut r u guys tlking about?? theyre like, soooooooo ttlly innocent!! LOLOLOL gEt iT wErE tHe KeWl PPle haha!!"

I think this is what they're saying in the photo, except for the one on the far left, who's having a stroke.

Whatever your politics is, I think we all can agree, bracelets that completely shun someone who says s/he was a victim of a crime is not something you should want to flaunt. Nonetheless make FASHION statements out of. The case is not over, and yes we all naturally tend to pick sides, but we all know what kind of world we live in. And this case is loaded with a lot of our world's garbage.

Fitz,

Sometime ago in Natural History Magazine there was a small followup about the killer chimps study.

Beauty or submissiveness are actually not the measure of "alpha-femaleness" in primates. Interestingly enough, alpha-femaleness has nothing to do with looks and all to do with their ability to scheme against other females and even kill them or terrorize other females by killing their babies or making them abort. The better organized her posse is, the higher in the totem pole will an alpha-female be.

And the aggression is not against weaker chimps but equally strong ones. And yes, they do the killing and "coup de chimping" in packs.

So that one with the glasses and the fierce look on her face may be homely but believe me, by chimp standards, she's a total silverback.

And by the way, it totally explains Babara Bush's mystique.

OK, I’m turned around.
They’re all victims of false consciousness; except for number 13.
She is actually a loyal comrade, attempting to subvert these saboteurs from the inside.

Tee hee, I love the "alpha female" comparisons...they'd better enjoy their salad days, because for such "alpha" girls, it all goes downhill after 25.

Heather Chandler: You were nothing before you met me. You were a bluebird. You were a brownie. You were a girlscout cookie.

"Interestingly enough, alpha-femaleness has nothing to do with looks and all to do with their ability to scheme against other females and even kill them or terrorize other females by killing their babies or making them abort. The better organized her posse is, the higher in the totem pole will an alpha-female be."

Sounds like the ladies of Feministing:)

How about bracelets that completely shun someone who made a false rape accusation against a close friend of yours?

As for an earlier comment, when it finally comes out definitively that the stripper made all this up, are you still going to support her, or will there be any regret over the shameful thing she did as well as the innocent lives she wrecked?

loyal comrade

There you go again with the Communist smear. Have you figured out what in the world you meant by Title VI yet?

Sounds like the ladies of Feministing:)

Actually, no. Feminists are not looking for patriarachal validation.

Alpha-femaleness in the primate world is not just about a female ensuring her genetic code vanquishes the DNA of lesser females in the harem but also about making sure the male chooses her first.

Feminists are in theory beyond that bullshit. That it plays out in real life is a whole different story.

"Your belief that you do know for certain what happened, before a trial even takes place, is the real example of a political agenda superseding evidence of fact." - Ampersand

When did I say I knew what happened? I still don't know, although my doubt of the AV’s story has grown as the case has progressed. Why? Because I have yet to see any evidence conclusively supporting her story while I have seen a lot of evidence showing it to be less and less likely.

I get angry when I read something like Samhita's post because it shows that she has already judged the players just for being accused of a crime.

Samhita said, "they are making themselves look so stupid to stand in solidarity with accused rapists." Why is this stupid? Is it because in Samhita’s world being accused of rape is a crime in itself, or because she has already assumed their guilt of the actual crime and demands that everyone agree with her?

Maybe this has something to do with it: Samhita does say, “this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and victimization of women of color.� I should note here that Samhita has neglected to show evidence of guilt anywhere in her post. She has also refused to acknowledge the evidence already released showing problems with the AV’s story (to put it lightly). Why, I wonder, does she skip over any mention of evidence and instead delve right into a politically correct speech about silencing and victimizing of women of color? My guess is because for Samhita's political agenda is more important to her than objectivity and the actual facts of this particular case. If I am wrong, than I would be happy to listen to Samhita explain how.

I do apologize if I have been overly zealous in my posts about this case. It has become a bit of an obsession for me. I want to be very clear, however, that I have not formed any certainty about the player’s guilt or innocence, and that I resent any implication that race has affected my judgment of it as it has so many others here.

isn't it lovely how when people disagree with what you say, they take you words and manipulate them into something that you didn't say?

ahh....gotta love the idiots. (felix)

typo. you=your

"first off, i support this posting because it is very, very ridiculous for the (white) women to show their support for alleged rapists--" - nubian

Why?

"second, whether you folks want to accept the truth or not, this is a "black/white" issue. this is the united states dammit, where race/racism is ALWAYS at play.

third, samhita, you hit the nail right on the head. and yes, i am showing her solidarity because she is a woman of color--shit, that's all whites let us have." - nubian

So, do you deny that this is racist, or embrace it.

wow. this is the first comment i'm leaving on feministing, and i'm surprised and disappointed by the personal attacks that are going on in the commentary that dilute the substance of the real debate. if only we could see the faces of those posting...i'd bet we'd see a lot of racist and sexist dynamics playing out in crystal clear vision...aahh the anonymity of the internet.

but anywho...moving on....

it's really dangerous to look at the duke rape case in a vacuum. the bigger picture here is that this country was built on a foundation of racism and sexism (and that's a FACT y'all! and it wasn't too long ago), our institutions were built on that foundation, and that foundation is still "holding up the house" of the USA. whatever the facts of this one case are, we may never actually know. i don't put that much faith in the criminal justice system- just look at the numbers - over 1/3 of black men in this country are in jail? (if it was truly a criminal justice system g.w.b. and his homies would be on trial)

stepping back from the bru-ha-ha over the facts of this one case, the reality is that violence towards people of color and in communities of color occurs at much higher rates than to white folk and in white communities. and women and men of color are routinely silenced when they speak out against this violence....just look at what happened to the black panthers.

and, historically, when white folks speak out against overwhelming trends of racism (from which they inherently benefit) they're labeled as and/or treated as race traitors and have to deal with a whole other slough of issues and identity politics that can be really challenging. i would have to say that in the case of the women's lacrosse team, standing in solidarity with their racial privilege has trumped standing in solidarity with their gendered disadvantage. regardless of their support for their friends on the men's lacrosse team, the women could have had sensitivity for the larger societal issues raised in the case, and acted with measured judgement that respected both sides of the story, and both their racial and gender identities.

I am going to restrict my responses to just this. I am impressed with how much faith so many of you have in our criminal justice system.

Because women of color are never raped by white men and it goes unreported let alone not prosecuted. Because men are never found innocent, even when they are guilty of rape. Give me a break people.

I put what details I felt were relevant for this particular issue. You don't like my take, don't read my site. I said accused rapists, I never said they were guilty. But you are right, in many ways that is irrelevant to my analysis. I am interested in the bigger issues at play here, the larger narratives that dictate the language used to discuss this case.

What us feminists (of color) can do is read between the lines. It is not always about innocent until proven guilty (because some people are just guilty for who they are while others are assumed innocent for who they are, it is the very stuff our nation is made of), it is what happens between the lines, what evidence is tampered with, what things are considered inherent (like black women are beasts that just asked for it) and implicit within rape laws ESPECIALLY with women of color, or what is significant in the moments that create the dialogue around the issues.

The criminal justice system has failed women of color, so why should I trust it now?

*In response to my lack of intelligence, just cuz shit is ovah yo head is NOT my fault.

mkay?

Thanks to those of you for support. I almost teared at work, but then I was like fuck that, I do indeed know wtf I am talking about.

Okay now off to continue working on my anti-white agenda...MUWHAHAHAHAHAHA!

"Because women of color are never raped by white men and it goes unreported let alone not prosecuted. Because men are never found innocent, even when they are guilty of rape. Give me a break people." - Samhita

Who are you arguing with here? Did someone say these things?

Obviously, this is your site, so you can write about whatever you want. I for one, however, would be very interested in hearing your take on issues that have actually been brought up in these comments.

I would also like to apologize for saying that your posts are less intelligent than others on this site. It would have been more diplomatic (and accurate) to say that I do not agree with your priorities as demonstrated in many of your posts.

Samhita wrote.
"this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and victimization of women of color."

Guilty till proven innocent? Oh right feminist I forgot.

I want to know where Samhita gets this white thing from? If I am missing the proper context or something in the article then I am sorry.

But it appears all the woman players are doing this, and they are not all white. Their race was not mentioned. And I can spot two minorities from game action press shots alone???

This is where your anti-white agenda might be shining thru dear.

You might now also be a woman of true colours no?

Seriously explain please?

There was a wonderful "Cat and Girl" comic (and if you aren't familiar with this, then check it out) recently that sums up how I interpret the events that Samhita posts about: two young women are in the stands of a sports stadium, holding penants emblazoned with the word "Patriarchy," and cheering. When Cat asks which team is Patriarchy, the reply is succinct: "Both. Duh."

These girls are ensuring their future by throwing their support behind what they perceive to be the winning team -- and it ain't Duke Lacrosse.

There was a wonderful "Cat and Girl" comic (and if you aren't familiar with this, then check it out) recently that sums up how I interpret the events that Samhita posts about: two young women are in the stands of a sports stadium, holding penants emblazoned with the word "Patriarchy," and cheering. When Cat asks which team is Patriarchy, the reply is succinct: "Both. Duh."

These girls are ensuring their future by throwing their support behind what they perceive to be the winning team -- and it ain't Duke Lacrosse.

(apologies for the double-post: my fault for double-clicking)

If it makes you feel any better, pretty much everyone I know down here in the Triangle who isn't affiliated with Duke thinks she's telling the truth and that they're going to jail.

Bravo! I have this on RSS feed and read your post this morning. Thank you for sharing it.

"I do indeed know wtf I am talking about."

Which is why we read. It's truely dissapointing to see such willful ignorance of race and racism in American life. As Abyss pointed out...the fact that Ken Lay went down for his purposeful blindness...we may be looking at a new legal model of responsibility.

It would certainly put some of these comments in a different light.

The most offensive part of this is the aspect that nobody seems to have touched on. The women's team is not just some random group of "friends" of the mens' lacrosse team, they are representatives of Duke University. Anything worn with their uniforms is subject to university approval. For all intents and purposes then, Duke is proclaiming the team's innocence. This is the most outrageous part of the whole thing - the education in ethics that Duke is handing out is anything but. The Duke lacrosse season is "cancelled", but as of the end of the school year the team was still meeting and recruiting. David Evans graduated with the Duke stamp of approval on all future job applications - even though his conduct (whether or not he is found guilty of rape) violated honor code and the team he was captain of dragged the Duke name through the mud on an international level. Disgusting. If I wasn't already outraged, I'd be really angry.

The most offensive part of this is the aspect that nobody seems to have touched on. The women's team is not just some random group of "friends" of the mens' lacrosse team, they are representatives of Duke University. Anything worn with their uniforms is subject to university approval. For all intents and purposes then, Duke is proclaiming the team's innocence. This is the most outrageous part of the whole thing - the education in ethics that Duke is handing out is anything but. The Duke lacrosse season is "cancelled", but as of the end of the school year the team was still meeting and recruiting. David Evans graduated with the Duke stamp of approval on all future job applications - even though his conduct (whether or not he is found guilty of rape) violated honor code and the team he was captain of dragged the Duke name through the mud on an international level. Disgusting. If I wasn't already outraged, I'd be really angry.

"Because women of color are never raped by white men and it goes unreported let alone not prosecuted. Because men are never found innocent, even when they are guilty of rape. Give me a break people."

Yeah who cares about the innocent men or the white women raped by minorities, that you left out, those type deserve it.

Putting them in the equation would only be servicing the patriarchy the more white men in jail or ruined due to false accusations the better I say!

Less potential rapists, all men are guilty of some form of rape anyway! Especially the white men and especially against women of color they take victimizer/ victim precedence fur sure!

Keep up the good work sister!

"My, my – look what Title IV has wrought. Not quite the solidarity the sisterhood was looking for."

I suspect you mean Title IX, not Title IV. Although I'm still confused as to why prohibiting sex discrimination in educational programs and activities leads to female lacrosse players wearing these bracelets.

Obviouslt there is a problem here. Most people who aren' crazy are willing to admit rape happens. Lots of women are raped, if you can't get behind taht fact I have some swamp land for you to purchase. But when someone stands up and says she was raped, no one believes her because people only wanna see rape as a face;ess horrible blob and not something that specific humans do to other more oppressed specific humans. To all of you who are trolling, you are being defensive why?
Don't even get me started on the previous rape this woman said she went through. Why don't people believe that? Many many woman who become sex-workers, strippers, and prostitues have been raped.molested and abused in thier past. It probably is a big reason why theu ended up in that job. Why not belive her when she says she was abused before? Why think that becuase shes a stripper she shouldn't be belived about the most recent rape? Strippers often pick that job because they are on the lowest rung of society and have few other choices when having to pick a job that will support them. They are the most vulneable and the most likely to be abused.
If we all admit that rape happens and that of all people minority women in a sexualized work environment are most likely to be raped of all, then why geta ll disbelieving if one says she is raped? The answer is becuase of you admit that a woman who says she is raped might actually have been raped then the world becomes a more dangerous place for you to live in. You have to accept opression as real, and maybe question your own role in the whole thing. And you are cowards. Thats what I'm getting from this. You don't have to belive these men are guilty but you do have to believe that this is an instructive tale about race class and abuse about how this woman wound up at that party dancing for men who had obvious contemp for her race class sex and position.

Although I don't think the bracelets are a good idea, is it possible that they're meant more as a message to the Duke U. admin than to the alleged victim or to the readers of blogs like feministing? Perhaps these women do not think their peers were treated fairly by the Duke administration and this is their subtle way of sending that message.

PS Please forgive my horrible typing. A always my keyboard lacks some essentials like all functioning letter keys and a spacebar.

Lots of women are raped, if you can't get behind taht fact I have some swamp land for you to purchase. But when someone stands up and says she was raped, no one believes her because people only wanna see rape as a face;ess horrible blob and not something that specific humans do to other more oppressed specific humans. To all of you who are trolling, you are being defensive why?

Yes people do get raped no one is disputing this? No, people do believe her, some don’t, and the smart people w/o political agendas don’t know no one can actually claim to know.
Unless samhita was there witnessing the events I don’t know how she can claim she knows what she is talking about.

I am curious what the rest of Femisting thinks of this post. Jessica, is Samhita's post representative of what this site is about? What do you think about this issue on a personal level? I have tried not to single out Samhita's posts in the past despite my personal opinion that they are not up to the level of intelligence of the rest on this site. In this case, however, I have to ask if Feministing as an organization stands behind this drivel.

You, sir, are a fucking moron. I must have missed the memo that said that women of color don't get to have an opinion about issues that affect them. Really, fuckface, where do you get off coming here and telling someone that is very clearly smarter than you that she's stupid?

That kind of arrogance is absolutely disgusting, and a symptom of the overarching ills that face society today. Mainly, that white assholes think they can run everything and tell anyone that's not a white asshole what's what.

"Yeah who cares about the innocent men or the white women raped by minorities, that you left out, those type deserve it."

Except that Samhita didn't say this at all.

"Putting them in the equation would only be servicing the patriarchy the more white men in jail or ruined due to false accusations the better I say!"

Or this.

"Less potential rapists, all men are guilty of some form of rape anyway! Especially the white men and especially against women of color they take victimizer/ victim precedence fur sure!"

Try again.

And you know, reading comphrension is a pretty handy life skill.

Yeah white boys keep you head bowed in shame and remain silent! You are to stupid to know you are the scapegoat; er problem and we don't have to bother explaining it to you properly. Because you're too stupid.

If you admit people do get raped, then don't demonize this woman for saying whe was raped. She said she was raped and what do all you fools do? Immediatley call her a liar, accuse her of starting a class war a race war and being untrustworthy cause she may have been a victim before. If she says she is raped dont get on this blog and bitch about white-right and oppressed men. Don't waste your time with back handed statements about title nine. There are a million more productive thing to do and ways to learn from this story beyond jumping to conclusions about people guilt or innocence for example

Ask yourself why this woman had to turn to stripping to put herself through school in thie first place

Ask yourself why and how minority women are over worked and underpaid and die younger than white women and are twice as likley to have low birth weight babies/babies that die within the first year of life. I promise you the aasnwer to all these questions are related

Ask youself why these guys had such a contemptable attitude toward the stripper they hired and they did if they raped her or not. If they hate strippers so fucking much, and want to skin them why bring them into ther home?

Ask yourself why this team had a contemptuous attitude toward black people and felt like it was OK to say the nigger to anyone ever under any circumstances.

look into similar cases where sports teams involved in this kind of shit(eg that fucked up shit with U Colorado) Then ask yourself if these things seem isolated or endemic.

Ask yourself the stats about how many stippers/porstitute are abused/raped in thier lifetimes.

Ask yourself the stats on how many women raped all the time

Ask yourself why the press seems to thing its not OK to bbe a stripper because you risk getting raped, but it is OK to hire a stripper.

Wether or not this woman was raped, all of these question are vital to ask yourself. I maintain that THAT is the lesson to be learned. Once this woman made her statement you should have thought of all that in order to put this accusation into persepective But I maintain you are all cowards and you don't dare ask yourself any of these thing becuase its easier to scream "lying black bitch" which is what youa re doing sd don't deny it, because then you'll be liars AND cowards.

Riiight. Let me ask you all a question. Who rapes women most of the time? Call me crazy but last time I checked it was men, en rape women therefore when you are talking about rapists you are mostly talking about men. Only if you are the biggest moron on the planet will you think that this implies ALL men are rapists(if you think this go back to elementary logic class) BUT I assure you there is a problem when women get raped and if you don't think that the problem is the men (who are the rapists) then there is no hope for humanity. Whatever the thruth may be in this case I assure you that white men are NOT the general scapegoat for humanities ills. Again women get raped, everyone accept this fact but that is only half a sentence. The rest of the sentence is "by men". Have the nerve to finish the damn sentence people.

Oh please, trolls. Y'all are screaming about how the accused rapists haven't been found guilty and we shouldn't pre-judge the trial results, but then you're defending the women lacrosse players who are doing exactly that. You don't know if the accused guys did it, and neither do they.

And pretending this has nothing to do with race is just dumb. Everyone knows that Durham has a major race problem. Y'all may wish that weren't the case, but, well, it is. Before you start yelping that race isn't an issue, try learning something first.

I stand behind what i said!

Yeah who cares about the innocent men or the white women raped by minorities, that you left out, those type deserve it.

dammit. we are NOT, i reapeat NOT minorities. and this isn't about a white woman being attacked by "minorities"--it's a about a black woman who was allegedly raped by white men. why do people insist on ignoring this issue...

Brian--

If these women think that the Duke U. administration has been unfair, then they're wrong. The men's team served alcohol to minors and hired strippers in a university-owned house. More seriously, as a group they were uncooperative in a police investigation. They're lucky they weren't suspended from school.

And if these women think that the men's team thinks of them as peers, then they're idiots. Apparently, none of the women has asked themselves why their good friends on the Men's team didn't invite them to the party.

While I am not as offended by the bracelets as the author of this item, it did occur to me that it would have been nicer if a bunch of women could have worn bracelets that said "innocent" in reference to the woman who was raped and who subsequently had her entire life dragged through the coals.

CM:Yeah who cares about the innocent men or the white women raped by minorities, that you left out, those type deserve it.

N:dammit. we are NOT, i reapeat NOT minorities. and this isn't about a white woman being attacked by "minorities"--it's a about a black woman who was allegedly raped by white men. why do people insist on ignoring this issue...

Why would you insist on ignoring context? I am not addressing the girl on trial but Samhita herself or rather a direct quote of hers?

You know, the simplest response if you think the post was unfair/the women's team was right to do as it did, is just to say so, calmly. Instead, there seems to be a frothing rage that anyone *dare* to think for a second that this could be true! I don't know if it's true, and am willing to wait for the trial to see the evidence. But I have a sneaking suspicion that all this outrage isn't because some random guys were accused of rape, but because some *athletes* were accused of rape. Because ruining an athlete's career is apparently the worst crime imaginable. As opposed to, say, raping a woman. I think a lot of these particularly angry commentors overidentify a wee bit with their athletic gods, and are mostly mad that they're being treated like any random guy.

To the cries of "So what about all the white women raped by minorities?!" and the like, I would offer up this thought:

Oh yes, there is inter and intra-racial rape on all sides of the board... However, since I fail to see where exactly in the original post Samhita said other forms of racial rape do not exist, they don't really have a relevance to this particular article- or even really in what's going on with the Duke case at all.

Is it really offensive that one person, in one article, deals with one TYPE of scenario and one particular crime? Will you next be angry because the cable repairman didn't fix your TV, or your pediatrician didn't write papers about alzheimers?

Or is your point far sicker: That it is the right of men of one race to rape women of the other race, because their 'own women' get raped by other races, as if we're just your battlefield or way of keeping score?

Because that surely is how it starts to sound when it gets rehashed, regardless of the color of who's doing the hashing.

Could the people who are posting comments with two different names please stop, it's wack to create alternate identities in order to show support for your argument.

Why are some of the posters ignoring the issue that both the the defense team raking these women that reported the rape across the coals, then with seemingly the schools blessing, the accused rich white frat boy rapists are getting rah rah girls, and a fan club. Compare it to how a group of black men would be treated had they been accused of gang rape of white women?

The Duke Lacrosse girls need to ask thier "friends" the guys why they were flinging around the word nigger like a pinata. The need to ask them why they showed contempt for strippers they hired and expressed the disere to cut up and fuck the bodies of dead strippers. If I was the Duke women, even if I did think the guys didn't rape that stripper I'd take a hard damn look at them before I went around pledging my support. The mens team obviovly had a hidden contempt for blacks, if they didn't whythe racial slurs. They obcviosly have a contemot for women, if not why hire and denegrate two strippers. They obviously equate sex with violence, if notwhy write emails about mutilting and molesting dead women.

Thats what this post is about goddammit, about a team that if it empoys rapists or not thinks it can get away with whatever piggish prejudices it feels like, becuase obviosly it can just look at the armbands.

As always with the bad typing sorry everyone.

I don't support Duke at all allowing such a statement to be made by the team as the team represents the University- they wear Duke on their uniforms, so the university IS complicit. Also, I don't like the pressure of the team being complicit in perhaps forcing members of the women's team to make a statement they don't agree with. However, it may be that the women of the women's team are close friends with the men's team, and some of them may be making a personal choice to support the accused. I would not consider the womens team to be a rah rah team for the men. In instances where people are accused of crimes, there are always family members and friends that even in the face of evidence do not accept such- yes, it is irrational, but do the women need to get raked over the coals? If these weren't young women, but were say the accuseds grannies, would the grannies be accused of being complicit in their own oppression, or would we just shake our heads and say that's what grannies do, they support their grandkids. It is not rational, but if these women were the social circle of those men, and for whatever reason chose to be friends with them, this might not be surprising behavior. If however, these women are not merely mindless sheep blindly supporting those a-holes, does it say something about what local perceptions of the case are?

Suppose the wristbands read "Guilty" instead of "Innocent." Would that be better?

(as you wish V)
I thought this thread was about only white women being bad people for wearing bracelets side by side with WOC?

I thought we were still waiting for an explanation on that confusing seemingly ethnocentric statement? Also the fact Samhita says that the white women only are “complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color� Also shows she believes the men to be guilty. It’s not even really all that debatable.

h,
As to the white women being "complicit thier own oppression" see my above badly typed post. The emns lacrosse team even if they aren't rapists did some terrible things that no woman should get behind.

In fact they are complicit in the victimization of women of color becuase as I mention in my post, any talk of rape aside, they hired and denigraded poor black strippers at thier party hurling around racist slurs.

Samhita's bang on the mark here.

Do you really think that all of the women lacrosse players are "close personal friends" of the three accused? I doubt it.

For many of them, I suspect their race and/or class loyalties preclude aligning themselves with a working-class black woman.

I also wonder whether they just happened to find a handy-dandy source of sweatbands that say "innocent". Or could it be that some well-bankrolled defendants' lawyers had them specially made and distributed.

Just wondering...

hujo, if you could possibly entertain the idea that the male lacrosse players are credibly accused, I think it would be damn clear how white women are participating in their own oppression and that of women of color.

Those armbands say that their allegiances lie with a bunch of men who hired a black stripper, insulted her with racial slurs, and possibly raped her. That does not warrant some show of solidarity.

Samhita is exactly right. And your accusations of racism are severely misguided at best.

h,
As to the white women being "complicit thier own oppression" see my above badly typed post. The emns lacrosse team even if they aren't rapists did some terrible things that no woman should get behind.

In fact they are complicit in the victimization of women of color becuase as I mention in my post, any talk of rape aside, they hired and denigraded poor black strippers at thier party hurling around racist slurs.

There are WOC on the team wearing innocent braclets.

Just wondering...

“Just exposing MY prejudice�

“hujo, if you could possibly entertain the idea that the male lacrosse players are credibly accused, I think it would be damn clear how white women are participating in their own oppression and that of women of color.�

No see when your not bias you CAN’T do that.

There are WOC on the team wearing innocent braclets.

Now we are just arguing over a matter of degree.

The men did do terrible things, rape excluded. The women stan up for the men thus backing up thise things. Of course this isn;t as bad as the women doing it themselves but support is support even if its just arm bands. I mean, Innocent of rape but what about all that other stuff. Why the fuck would you wanna show solidarity with all that other stuff unless you didn't give a flying fuck who uses the word nigger and messes black strippers..that sounds a hell of a lot like being comlicit in oppression to me.

Oh yeah... plus the univeristy sanctioning it.

Sorry carpenter not debating the case just samhitas post.

I feel it is much more than a "matter of degree".

Great post.

what is also distressing is how much the woman who speaks up about being rapde disappears from the discussion of suffering.. the debate usually divides into two parts: 1) how much pain it causes men to be accused of rape and 2) what kind of life the woman who says she was raped has led (with emphasis on whatever she did that made her 'deserve' it or made her into 'the kind of person who lies about rape'

Anyway, thanks for posting and you are right. And Carpenter is also spot on.

Forgive me hujo, but if there are women of color on the team then THEY are complicit in oppression too so what? Thats just more people and more oppression.

"Forgive me hujo, but if there are women of color on the team then THEY are complicit in oppression too so what? Thats just more people and more oppression."

It makes samhita ethnocentric and a bigot, it would seem.

Without proper explination.

No see when your not bias you CAN’T do that.

Dude, your grammar and punctuation is so bad, I'm not even sure what this says. You need a verb and a referent for "that".

"No see when your not bias you CAN’T do that.

Dude, your grammar and punctuation is so bad, I'm not even sure what this says. You need a verb and a referent for "that"."

Desperate. You know what I mean, I am saying no one can say if the players are or aren’t guilty, like samhita implies, unless they are bias.

Spelling and grammar geeks Ugh. What’s the point other than to admit you have nothing of substance to add?

It makes samhita ethnocentric and a bigot, it would seem.

No it doesn't.

The mostly white women's team is helping the oppression of women and the oppression of women of color. I'll rephrase
White women and a few women of color are making the world worse for women and women of color in particular.

Samhita said
This is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color.

Now replace (white in this case) with (mostly white in this case) Not that different. Know why? Cause she never said ONLY white women ever help oppress women and esp those of color. And she NEVER EVER said women of color are never complicit in the oppression of women and esp those of color.

Desperate. You know what I mean, I am saying no one can say if the players are or aren’t guilty, like samhita implies, unless they are bias.

You're contending that there's no difference between credibly accused and guilty? Duly noted.

What’s the point other than to admit you have nothing of substance to add?

To tell you that *I cannot even understand what you're attempting to say*. It's impossible to refute because it makes no sense as a matter of English grammar.

So let me sum up. Samhia Never said the mens team was guilty, she refered in fact to alleged rapists.
As I have said, rape aside the mens team did terrible things. In supporting the mens team unconditionally the women's team issupporting the terrible things. All anyone is doing is nitpicking because god forbid anyone say anything bad that white people ever did to themselves or anyone else.
LAME, freakin' LAME,WEAK and nitpicky and missing the entire point of what it means to ally yourself with people who do bad things. LAME!

Now replace (white in this case) with (mostly white in this case) Not that different. Know why? Cause she never said ONLY white women ever help oppress women and esp those of color. And she NEVER EVER said women of color are never complicit in the oppression of women and esp those of color.

When the point of contention is questioning the need for specification it kind makes your "Mostly" explanation irrelevant.
Why do white women deserve more condemnation for the same actions as WOC.

Many of you got to start seeing people as people and stop having such hypocritical views about race, it just breaks my heart i tell ya.

By supporting the stripper's lies unconditionally is feminist hyocrisy at it's best.

The striper lied about being raped, and the second stripper lied about "just driving by and was yelled racial slurs."

The lacrosse women are brave to stand up against this type of sexist hypocrisy and show the world that not all women are blind man-hating feminist who will back any claim - no matter how obvious of a lie - by a woman, just because she's a woman.

Sexism practiced by feminist is still sexism.

No.
How about JUSTICE?

Betty Friedan to take a page from hujo way to comment definitively on stuff because you know, you were definitely there yourself and sya it all, and you definitly know that bitch stipper is a liar guilty till proven a whore.

.... the lacrosse boys who didn't desearve to be treated so poorly by the public.

You know who else doesn't deserve to be treated porrly in public, alleged victims of sexual assault.

I'm sure those poor innocent racially slurring stripper harrassing corpse-fuckin fetishing young men have nothing to be ashamed of at all, rape or no rape.

Go Duke girls!

Obviously Duke women are independant thinkers who don't blindly follow the rants of misandry feminist.

Duke Girls rule!

Did you look at the roster? I honestly only see one woman who looks like the label white might not fit.

DA Nifong deserves to be jailed as well. It must have been a heck of a good lap dance for him to throw his career away on this loser.

BTW... saw the stripper's pic. It's no wonder why she made so little.

I kinda feel sorry she has to have sex with her boyfriend and two other men for rides to her strip shows... I wonder if her boyfriend and other two guys she had sex with for a ride to the Duke lacrosse boys' house were white? Nifong claimed a unidentifyable white pubic hair was found in the stripper's vagina which was dripping with DNA evidence from her boyfriend.

Why do white women deserve more condemnation for the same actions as WOC.

She didn't EVER EVER say white women deserve more condemnation. You made that up, out of you own dillusional head? Where does it say that? Could it be...no where?

When the point of contention is questioning the need for specification it kind makes your "Mostly" explanation irrelevant.

Reapeat after me she NEVER said women of color don't contribution to oppresion. You know what Never means don't you? Just because she said these particular white women did do doesn;t mean an goddammn thing about women of color. Not one thing.

Also she is perfectly willing to admit women are contributing to the oppression of women. If your argument if that some women of color also are contributing to the oppression of all women(white included) So fucking what?? So then the few women of color lucky enough to make it into an elite white institution depite all the obsticles in thier way, then make in onto an elite mostly white team can contribute a little to the oppression of all women even those of color. Big fucking deal. Maybe she didn't know there were WOC on the team, but even if there are it makes no fucking difference at all, not one drop. Anyone who wears that band is complicit in oppression. The Fucking end. finito, no more to talk about.

This may be the most appalling thread I've ever seen here.

me again: shut the fuck up. go spew mysogynistic bullshit somewhere else.

...and I heard that almost 50% of all rape claims are false.

Really? When someone calls a blogger I respect an ethnocentric bigot, I think race is definitely in the picture.

I'm sure you and your ironic nickname have a different opinion on this.

"ethnocentric bigot" "mysogynistic bullshit"

Someone's been reading her dictionary! LOL!

A dictionary can't replace an education... or common sense.

The stripper lied!

hujo is implying that he has no bias? LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL I thought I would fall out of my chair. I'm still chuckling.

It doesn't matter how many people I already fucked today, I can still be raped. Prostitution(as well as consensual sex) is an agreement between the participants to engage in sexual activity. If these young men did not make these agreements, yet had such activity, then they committed rape.

"It doesn't matter how many people I already fucked today, I can still be raped. Prostitution(as well as consensual sex) is an agreement between the participants to engage in sexual activity. If these young men did not make these agreements, yet had such activity, then they committed rape."

even with liquor in their system, these boys weren't moved by these old and used strippers.

Again, people are perfectly willing to admit women get raped all the time, but the second someone actually makes an accusation she gets draged through the shit swamp. Maybe she's not lying, why don't you withhold judgment on that and worry about why rich white boys have fantasies about cutting strippers in half and fucking them. Worry abou why women need to strip to put themselves through college and men don't for the most part.

I have no bias in this case, find it copy it paste it.
I have not passed judgments on the girl or the men you all out liars.

Maybey try reading my posts?

No legs to stand on?

wow mind boggling mysogyny here, cause you know even if they wanted to rape a stripper, they'd only rape a young attractive stripper, cause that what rape is really about...it's not about a fucked up power differential, like the one present whene you hire a woman to dance around and make herself a sexual object for you. I'll go tell that to all the cops who run self/defense& rape prevention programms. Then I'll advise all the women in the world to spend more time getting sunspotts and invest in a 3 pint a day chubby hubby habit, no rape at all in no time.

Hujo, I totally agree with you, but you're not talking to a bunch of rational people wanting to find the truth. All these women want is for every man to be found guilty solely on the word of the woman without anyone- including the man - being able to defend himself.

The woman - no matter how vile a person - souldn't have her character questioned. etc....

Fizzy logic

There are not a lot of black guys in hockey. Not allot of white guys in basketball? The point is the needles division.

I have to point out how many of you misuse the word "mysogyny".

Mysogyny doesn't mean "disagreeing with someone's opinion".

You guys should really get a dictionary.

noname said - "I am curious what the rest of Femisting thinks of this post. Jessica, is Samhita's post representative of what this site is about? What do you think about this issue on a personal level? I have tried not to single out Samhita's posts in the past despite my personal opinion that they are not up to the level of intelligence of the rest on this site. In this case, however, I have to ask if Feministing as an organization stands behind this drivel."

pinkko said - "You, sir, are a fucking moron. I must have missed the memo that said that women of color don't get to have an opinion about issues that affect them.�

Funny, I don't remember saying that she has no right to an opinion because of her ethnicity. Can you please point out that quote to me so that I can properly apologize for it?

pinkko said – “Really, fuckface, where do you get off coming here and telling someone that is very clearly smarter than you that she's stupid?�

I never called her stupid. I said that her posts were not up to the level of intelligence of the rest of this site. I, unlike you, do not believe personal attacks and profanity are constructive ways to argue a point. As for who is smarter, I couldn’t say without meeting her in person. Blog posts can be pretty misleading sometimes.

pinkko said – “That kind of arrogance is absolutely disgusting, and a symptom of the overarching ills that face society today. Mainly, that white assholes think they can run everything and tell anyone that's not a white asshole what's what."

What kind of arrogance? Disagreeing with you? The only societal ill clearly illustrated here is a national allergy to rational, civil discourse.

BTW – I’m not going to publish my real name on the internet, but if I did you would know my secret: I’m not white. :)

Or, in lieu of a dictionary, read me again's post from 12:05. It's exemplary.

hujo
Guilty till proven innocent? Oh right feminist I forgot

Your words, biased against feminists much?

"wow mind boggling mysogyny here, cause you know even if they wanted to rape a stripper, they'd only rape a young attractive stripper, cause that what rape is really about...it's not about a fucked up power differential, like the one present whene you hire a woman to dance around and make herself a sexual object for you. I'll go tell that to all the cops who run self/defense& rape prevention programms. Then I'll advise all the women in the world to spend more time getting sunspotts and invest in a 3 pint a day chubby hubby habit, no rape at all in no time."

You should spend more time teaching women not to make false claims of rape. If these strippers were told, this whole duke locrasse rape thing wouldn't have happened."

Seems like if you even stray a little from feminist rhetoric, you're labeled biased against feminist and the miuse of "mysogyny" is thrown all over the place!

Seems that feminist don't like women who are capable of thinking for themselves.

If you listen real carefully, you can almost hear the future real victims of rape sending out a big "Fuck you!" to the people here who are so desperate to turn this case into a huge circus, despite the overwhelming evidence that the stripper made all this up. The ones who have turned this into a personal cause because they're desperate to take down the evil white man have just made it that much harder for real rape accusations to be taken seriously in the future.

Congratulations, y'all.

To too many posters to count:

1. The AV never identified the three indicted players as having used racial slurs.

2. Only three slurs have been specifically alleged in this case. One of these was allegedly said by the Kim (the 2nd dancer) to the players.

3. None of the three indicted players had anything to do with Ryan McFadden’s tasteless email.

I’m not sure why I bother to correct you all since the misinformation many of you are spreading here seems more a product of an aggressive disregard of the truth than accidental ignorance, but there it is.

Well you got me here's the content of my evil plan
1 kill myslef and have a frankenstien like resurrection of me as a black woman...hopefully black woman that pisses everyone off..maybe I'll wait till Angela Davis is dead so I can get her skin.

Then I'm going fly around the worls raping white man after white man as hard as possible.

Then while my big scarry black vagina is all bruised up and srippind with innocent DNA evidence I'll be sure to call the cops and falsly accuse as many whities as possible.

If I have time I'll them sneak into the pristine quarters of Duke's women's lacross team and take a dump in each of thier cleats and wipe my ass with the innocent sweatbands.

Then I'll go on welfare, dig up Ronald Reagan dress him in thong and skull fuck his corpse while gloating to the press about the educational system is failing todays young men, driving them to drink thus making them easy targets for my man-raping plundering black fermale rampage.

That oughta teach you rich honkies a damn lesson.

When is someone going to whine about the women’s lacrosse team wearing skirts on the field?

The simple truth is that the stripper lied. We must all remember this while talking about other things.

Women who lie about being rape hurt real victims of rape.

It is impossible that a crime scene with three drunk men in a small enclosed room with a fighting and clawing woman being orally, virginally, and anally penetrated not leave any DNA evidence of urine, blood, vaginal fluid, sweat, fecal matter, scat smears, saliva, tears, or semen... especially if condoms were used. How would they take off the condoms during all this chaos without spilling, smearing, or touching the content inside or outside of the condom?

But wait, I forgot the part where I fly around the world at night jumping down the chimneys of every REAL rape victim on earth and leave a gift wrapped box that when you open it explodes and leaves a giant pig-gut stain on the wall in the shape of the words
"haha now noone will belive your sorry white ass...plus I fucked your man ha!"

Personally I don't really see a problem with the female lacross team supporting their brother lacross team. They just want to show support and solidarity, and ultimately that's what we're all doing in our own way. Feminist blog sites such as this show support and solidarity for the rape victim, while the female lacross team shows support for the accused. It just seems quite pointless to demonize .

"Well you got me here's the content of my evil plan
1 kill myslef and have a frankenstien like resurrection of me as a black woman...hopefully black woman that pisses everyone off..maybe I'll wait till Angela Davis is dead so I can get her skin.

Then I'm going fly around the worls raping white man after white man as hard as possible.

Then while my big scarry black vagina is all bruised up and srippind with innocent DNA evidence I'll be sure to call the cops and falsly accuse as many whities as possible.

If I have time I'll them sneak into the pristine quarters of Duke's women's lacross team and take a dump in each of thier cleats and wipe my ass with the innocent sweatbands.

Then I'll go on welfare, dig up Ronald Reagan dress him in thong and skull fuck his corpse while gloating to the press about the educational system is failing todays young men, driving them to drink thus making them easy targets for my man-raping plundering black fermale rampage.

That oughta teach you rich honkies a damn lesson.

Posted by: Carpenter

I think your late for taking your medication. Soon men with butterfly nets will be after you...

me again - Please don't make things worse. Anyone who claims to know what happened that night and wasn't there is a liar.

me again - Please don't make things worse. Anyone who claims to know what happened that night and wasn't there is a liar.

That makes many people here who claim a rape occurred is a liar. Hey! the strippers are liars! I guess this whole case is made up of liars!

Carpenter - Are you OK? Did you forget to take your pills?

Carpenter wrote

Betty Friedan to take a page from hujo way to comment definitively on stuff because you know, you were definitely there yourself and sya it all, and you definitly know that bitch stipper is a liar guilty till proven a whore.
the lacrosse boys who didn't desearve to be treated so poorly by the public.You know who else doesn't deserve to be treated porrly in public, alleged victims of sexual assault.
I'm sure those poor innocent racially slurring stripper harrassing corpse-fuckin fetishing young men have nothing to be ashamed of at all, rape or no rape.

Hujo wrote

I have no bias in this case, find it copy it paste it.
I have not passed judgments on the girl or the men you all out liars.
Maybe try reading my posts?
No legs to stand on?

Carpenter wrote

hujo
"Guilty till proven innocent? Oh right feminist I forgot"
Your words, biased against feminists much?

UUUGH
Yeah no shit I am biased against media feminists and certian modern feminist attitudes ideologies but not rape victims or the accused?????
You people desperately need to start making some valid points.

I think we are done “debating� carpenter.

I think the skirts are cute. No woman athlete wants to look like men.

It seems to be a case of class and race privilege overriding any feelings of female solidarity. After all it isn’t as if some innocent daughter of a well off white family was besmirched is it? It was just some poor black girl who is probably lying any way and if she isn’t was asking for it. Gods and Goddesses this makes me weep. It’s exactly this sort of head in the sand attitude that lets frat boys and jocks get away with this sort of crap.

sexism is wrong! even when committed by feminist.

"What's god for the goose is good for the gander."

Today's feminist are facing men who grew up victims of man-hating and boy-bashing feminist. Today's men weren't guilty of traditional gender roles that supposedly oppressed women. Today's men want equal rights and fair treatment and will not coward away from feminist rhetoric any more!

OMG I sound like a woman!

Next thing I’d be singing the Burger King song! LOL!!!

Oh rent a sense of humor!

BRavo gentle-trash for debating me Hujo way to NOT proove Samhita is an anti-white biggot as she didn't make any huge generalizaton about white people as a whole. Also way to not address at all any other issue I brought up about women having to stip through college, or black woman as awhole having an uphill battle. Way to miss the point.
Me again way to be rape-denying wackoI'm sure your making everyone else you're siding with look real good.
noname, pretty damn sure there was a grip o' racial slurs hurled aroung rape or no
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5405885&ft=1&f=1001

Now if you excuse me, I'm busy writing a letter to all those poor black females who own most of the fortune 500 companies and take up 85% of congress about how we can better oppress the white man.

So has anyone been onvolved in women's team sports in college or highschool? I agree w/Natasha entirely. The question is is the womens team in also in haze of entitlement(maybe covering for possible isms of thier own) or do they really ust like the men's team and are trying not to see thierobvios flaws?

Today's feminist are facing men who grew up victims of man-hating and boy-bashing feminist. Today's men weren't guilty of traditional gender roles that supposedly oppressed women. Today's men want equal rights and fair treatment and will not coward away from feminist rhetoric any more! OMG I sound like a woman! Next thing I’d be singing the Burger King song! LOL!!!

There speaks some one without a frelling clue. A totally oblivious child of privilege.

Oh and you wouldn’t know humor if it kicked you in the balls.

Nah, these boys aren't innocent of rape. The odds are overwhelmingly against it. According to the DOJ, 98% of women who accuse rape have indeed been raped. Only 2% falsely accuse. But to listen to the boys and their media, you'd think it was the opposite way around.

Despite these statistics, only 1% of rapists ever see the inside of a courtroom. And only 1% of that 1% see the inside of a jail cell.

TalibanAmerika has made it clear that war has been declared on women and it's now open season on them. Every 9 seconds a woman is battered, every minute a woman is raped and every 15 minutes a woman is murdered by a man who supposedly loved them. 60% of women report being abused. At what point do we declare this a holocaust?

So what can women do? We can girlcott any state that refuses to start taking serious measures against rape and the violence towards women and incarcerating the perpetrators of it. Women can move and refuse to live in any state that passes any law that is oppressive towards women. Such as any state which does not support pro-choice. Autonomy over one's body is essential to basic human rights.

We must demand that women be viewed as human. Not as sperm containers, not as fetus containers, and not as property.

If the boys insist on continuing on their path of violence and destruction, women must be prepared to play hard ball. Women must be prepared to cease having relationships with men and have as little to do with them as possible. Women must be prepared to cease reproduction until further notice. Especially reproduction of male children.

Women must consciously make an effort to eradicate racism. We can do this by chosing to reproduce with those outside of our own race and ethnity. Let's mix it all up. Until race is no longer distinguishable and people can no longer be oppressed because of it.

And by the way, we don't need men to do this.

Women must start believing other women. Study after study shows that men lie, steal and cheat more than women ever thought of. So please start believing your sisters. We must stand in solidarity or men will be able to pick us off one by one. How long will it be before your number comes up? Will you not be believed either? The support of your sisters will one day be invalueable to you. We need to learn to trust each other and work together. Because we live in a racist, woman-hating rape culture. So plan ahead.

As for men, well... who cares about men?

What men seemed to have forgotten is that women put them on this earth for our amusement. Not vice versa. But you know what? I don't think women are finding you boys too amusing any more.

70% of women in the U.S. have made it clear that they have no desire whatsoever to get married or bear children. But 90% of men want and fully expect to. See the problem we have here, boys? You're not amusing to us any more. Which may not be in your best interests. Because it is only by women's good grace that any of you boys even exist at all.

Now start telling the truth and shaming the devil. Being the odds are 98 to 2 that these boys did exactly what this woman claims they did, what would you be betting on if you were a betting man? The 2? LOL. Get real.

Now get your shit together, boys, and clean up your act and stop pretending that one is "innocent until proven guilty." You know as well as I do that that's not how the system works and never has. The laws were created and written by white men for white men and is maintained and lorded over by white men. People of color, Native Americans, and women need not apply.

The whole privileged white man scapegoat thing doesn't really cut it for us young men either. It is prejudice segregating ethnocentric and dismissive.

"What men seemed to have forgotten is that women put them on this earth for our amusement. Not vice versa. But you know what? I don't think women are finding you boys too amusing any more.

70% of women in the U.S. have made it clear that they have no desire whatsoever to get married or bear children. But 90% of men want and fully expect to. See the problem we have here, boys? You're not amusing to us any more. Which may not be in your best interests. Because it is only by women's good grace that any of you boys even exist at all."

"we are not man-haters"

Wow feminism is so good for young men and women! just look at all the positive effects it has had!

noname, pretty damn sure there was a grip o' racial slurs hurled aroung rape or no

-Carpenter

The only people claiming that the Duke team used racial slurs were the two strippers from the party. Roberts (the second stripper) called 911 and reported that she overheard some Duke students call her a nigger while she was walking past their house. Of course she wasn't just walking past their house.

Also the students never requested black strippers. You call up an agency and book strippers. You can request what kind of strippers you'd like, but they just send you whatever they have. Supposedly the Duke team requested white strippers. I've never requested strippers nor been to a strip club, however a few of my friends did once for someone's birthday. The stripper turned out to be some incredibly skanky pregnant woman and my friends wouldn't even let her into the house.

anon, not true listen to the npr insterview lacrosse player have admitted racial slurs may have been in play.

I didn't say the student requested black strippers I said they harrased black strippers cause those are the strippers they got. Weather they would have haraseed white strippers will never be known,

Yeah no shit I am biased against media feminists and certian modern feminist attitudes ideologies

Biased against ideologies like, oh maybe that rape is bad and blaming the victim of a rape is bad. Or maybe the idea that women shouldn't be complicit in their own subjugation bugs you (cause that's what the post is about)It makes so much more work for the patriarchy when we don't do as we're told.

BTW more women live in povery that men. More blacks live in poverty than whites. Blacks live 6-7 years less than whites. Blacks are 2 times moe likely to die by aged 20 than whites. Blacks are 2 times more likly than white to be still born, or die within the first year of life. TWICE as likley
http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/indicators/78LifeExpectancy.cfm

Dont tell me racism is just a scapegaot in this country, people are dying out there.

Worry abou why women need to strip to put themselves through college and men don't for the most part.
-Carpenter

No woman needs to strip to go to college. If she was desperate enough for her tuition she could enlist in the military and have them pay for it.

Thank you, Luckynkl; I was just about to jump in with the statistics myself.

Rape has the same rate of false reporting as other violent crimes. (See the 2001 report on the Department of Justice website.)

It is therefore vastly more likely that a man is guilty than it is that the victim is lying. For those of you out there trying to shift the blame to false reporting, I suggest that you re-focus your outrage on the far, far greater number of men who rape women and get away with it.

"noname, pretty damn sure there was a grip o' racial slurs hurled aroung rape or no
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5405885&ft=1&f=1001 " - Carpenter

Was that link supposed to support your comment. It doesn't.

"70% of women in the U.S. have made it clear that they have no desire whatsoever to get married or bear children. But 90% of men want and fully expect to." - Luckynkl

Where did you get those numbers? I only have life experience to draw on, but in most of the relationships I have know, it has been the women who have pushed for marraige. Most men avoid it like the plague.

"Nah, these boys aren't innocent of rape. The odds are overwhelmingly against it. According to the DOJ, 98% of women who accuse rape have indeed been raped. Only 2% falsely accuse." - Luckynkl

Nice to know you have no interest in the evidence of THIS CASE.

"Women must be prepared to cease having relationships with men and have as little to do with them as possible. Women must be prepared to cease reproduction until further notice." - Luckynkl

Go sister! I think you should lead by example.

So yeah, according to cencus.gov Blacks are 3 times, 3 TIMES more likey than whites to live in poverty THREE times. Race matters and I assure you this very poverty stat is a KEY player in this whole nasty ass case. Why do women have to be strippers in the first place, and dance for men who threaten them, cause hey can afford not to thats why.

anon, not true listen to the npr insterview lacrosse player have admitted racial slurs may have been in play.
-Carpenter

You were right, thanks for the link.

Red Queen
Biased against ideologies like, oh maybe that rape is bad and blaming the victim of a rape is bad. Or maybe the idea that women shouldn't be complicit in their own subjugation bugs you (cause that's what the post is about)It makes so much more work for the patriarchy when we don't do as we're told.

No you miss the point entirely, rape is bad blaming the victim is bad, labeling the accused guilty in a case such as this with shoddy evidence abounding and evil media vultures manipulating every variable to further their own selfish agendas is bad. So are false accusations in general and the light punishments that come with them, they ruin lives carriers, finance, and future prospects, family ties.

If you know my presense here you will see I do not actively take a stance against many issues that come up because I agree with them as a huminist, some prevalent feminist attitudes surrounding rape and dv as seen here in this thread they just don’t jive with my humanist mojo ya’know it's anti-male/white-male.

You will have to elaborate on how it is subjugation when really it shows they believe one opinion about it, as no one here can claim to have anything but an opinion about the truth in this case.
Stop scapegoating on the patriarch trip and just take control of your own life!

No, the DOJ doesn't say that only 2% of women claiming rape made false claims.

The correct number, from the FBI -- who is responsible for US DOJ crime statistics -- is 8%, which is 4 times the false claim rate for any other crimes.

So yeah, according to cencus.gov Blacks are 3 times, 3 TIMES more likey than whites to live in poverty THREE times. Race matters and I assure you this very poverty stat is a KEY player in this whole nasty ass case. Why do women have to be strippers in the first place, and dance for men who threaten them, cause hey can afford not to thats why.
-Carpenter

What makes you think this woman was forced to be a stripper?

Being a stripper is an unskilled position right? What kind of work for unskilled men is there that can provide anywhere near the income that a stripper would make?

whoops crossed links
a direct quote from around the NPR site
"Cheshire conceded lacrosse players may have used racial slurs"

Might have been this news clip, http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5393138
just google it be sure to include npr tahats where the stories comming from it's the first thingy to come up. Adam Hoschberg did the story

anaon
kay so I didn;t cross links. I hate that NPR web site, they need more readily available transcripts.

Worry abou why women need to strip to put themselves through college and men don't for the most part.
-Carpenter

• women strip for the money. Attactive strippers can make thousands, while ugly old sloppy stripers (i.e. the duke accuser/stripper) barely scrape by. That nasty thing showing up at the Duke lacrosse boys’ house still dripping with DNA evidence of the three guys she just had sex with… nasty ho!

No woman needs to strip to go to college. If she was desperate enough for her tuition she could enlist in the military and have them pay for it.

• true, this is usually just an excuse for stripping.

"Nah, these boys aren't innocent of rape. The odds are overwhelmingly against it. According to the DOJ, 98% of women who accuse rape have indeed been raped. Only 2% falsely accuse." – Luckynkl

• nope. Nationwide in independent studies by several law enforcement agansies reveal that almost 50% of all rape calims are false. The 2% myth is just a myth.

So yeah, according to cencus.gov Blacks are 3 times, 3 TIMES more likey than whites to live in poverty THREE times. Race matters and I assure you this very poverty stat is a KEY player in this whole nasty ass case. Why do women have to be strippers in the first place, and dance for men who threaten them, cause hey can afford not to thats why.

• maybe some people should stop blaming there race and start taking responsiblility for their decisions they make.

Hujo! I admire you for trying to show these feminist some common sense and sense of integrity, but you can’t teach an ass not to be an ass if she wants to be an ass.

70% of women in the U.S. have made it clear that they have no desire whatsoever to get married or bear children. But 90% of men want and fully expect to. See the problem we have here, boys? You're not amusing to us any more. Which may not be in your best interests. Because it is only by women's good grace that any of you boys even exist at all."

"we are not man-haters"

Wow feminism is so good for young men and women! just look at all the positive effects it has had!

wow! some women have strong sense of denial

You don't impress me with your made up stats.

dude, Soo many things, its like no one puts a gun o your head and makes you be stripper, or a prodtitute for that matter, but if you gotta pay the bills and support a kid what else are you going to do. Contrary to popular beleif most strippers and prostitutes don't make fistfulls either.
Also most sex workers have issues of sexual abuse in thier pasts. Im sure it's a big part of why they pick the jobs they do, a whole bunch of phychological bullshit about acceptence and validation by men.

Also it's not like a cake walk, sometimes work is dangerous or degrading. I mean YOU the stripper aren't fulfilling your sexual fantasy(no hot guys dancing for you), you being something for some guy to drool at.

Also in a world where women do make up most of the poor people and not much of the rich or the government, they are handed into roles where they are judged only on sexyness like being a stripper.

It isn't as bad here as in some places. For example the sex slave trade in eastern europe(though they do end up here) Or in India where you are up shit's creek if your husband dies cause no one will give you a job, so its prostitute or starve.
Here its like that to a lesser degree.

Anyway I could go on about this for years but I wont sufice it to say I dont mean force like cickenwinging till you submut, mre like a steady puching force from everything(like poverty hiring practices etc) pushing you into sex as your main social and economic role. I mean people spend thier whole lives researching this kind of thing try reading this book Woman Worth. Its old but still good.

“Oh and you wouldn’t know humor if it kicked you in the balls.

Posted by: Natasha Yar-Routh |�

I thought fat lesbians are suppose to be jolly? Go back to the Baltic states, where they appreciate rugged women like you.

Carpenter - Don't worry about the link. Anyone who has followed the case closely knows that racial slurs were used by some players and the dancers. As I said earlier, I have only heard three specific slurs, but there could have been more.

"dude, Soo many things, its like no one puts a gun o your head and makes you be stripper, or a prodtitute for that matter, but if you gotta pay the bills and support a kid what else are you going to do."

bunch of crap! the strippers grandparents take care of her kids while she's getting high, screwing her boyfriend and two friends before being dropped off to her strip shows dripping with nasty DNA from every orifice."

This victim signle mother stereotype doesn't fit this particular stripper.

Carpenter - I don't think anyone who read any of your post really expect anything except rhetoric and propaganda from you.

basically you're like a monkey. You're interesting to watch, but no one takes you seriously.

Carpenter – for the love of god, TAKE YOUR MEDICATION!

Jesus Christ! Take responsibility... Go fuck yourself. Who does most of the work in the world? women thats who not nice work bent over back breaking labor. Who made your sweatshop tennis shoes? Probably 14 yr old girl. Who does most of the subsitance farming on this planet? women Who walk miles to get weater? women Who gets nomoney at all to have and raise all the kids? women Remeber that recent stat that is stay at home moms were to be compensated, they get 100k a year, well they don't they do it for free. Most women work outside the home and come back and still do most to all of the house maintanaince and child care. Women are poorer and more likley to raped, and not by some psycho in the bushed, but friends and relatives. They also are much more likely to be killed by partners. WOmen are most of the sex class, strippers and prostitutes providing sexual pleasure to men and getting none back of thier own. WOmen do more and get less, that why men are richer. Poor people aren't draining the economy they are driving it. Strippers aren't strippers cause they make so much and are treated well. Strippers are treated like trash. It ok to hire a stripper but if you are one you are a dirty whore and deserve whatever you get.

You know I saw a great politcal cartoon where a black kid and a white kid are too short to reach this table so the white kid climbs on the black kids back and neck to get on the table. Then the black kid says "ok now help me up" and the white kid says "I got up here by myself so why dont you". Same for women.

I like watching her jump and scream. I wish I could through her a peanut.

okay I think she totally lost it.

What part of blacks have 3 times the poverty rate of whites don't you get? How do you think it got thatway? I wanna hear it? Why you think blacks have 3 times the poverty rate the whites do?

Even if they are found innocent of rape, they should be punished for their disgusting chants.
That is all.

dude, Soo many things, its like no one puts a gun o your head and makes you be stripper, or a prodtitute for that matter, but if you gotta pay the bills and support a kid what else are you going to do. Contrary to popular beleif most strippers and prostitutes don't make fistfulls either.
-Carpenter

What's to stop the woman from going on welfare? Also if they aren't making much money, than why be a stripper or a prostitute? If they could make more working a much more decent job then why wouldn't they?

carpenter - you think cherry picking all these stats and vignettes is convincing people that wht you're saying has any real truth.

Everyone knows that stats can be manipulated to show whatever a person wants.

Stats don't prove a thing.

people, no matter what gender or color have to take responsibility for the decisions they make.

"Anonymous" has a good point. She could make more money working at McDonalds according to her tax return.

Remeber that recent stat that is stay at home moms were to be compensated, they get 100k a year, well they don't they do it for free.
-Carpenter

If the compensation for the position was 100+k a year than you can gaurentee that more men would do it. But since it doesn't, somebody has to go out and earn a paycheck.

The awesome Ladies of Duke lacrosse RULE!

What's to stop the woman from going on welfare? Also if they aren't making much money, than why be a stripper or a prostitute? If they could make more working a much more decent job then why wouldn't they?

Many things
Maybe she doen't wanna be on welfare, there is a huge pride issue about going on welfare maybe she feels the need to make it somehow on her own, you know people do tend to really look down on poeple on welfare.

Also, and this is feminism 101, women are taught to only value thier bodies, and to think of themselves as sex objects. Again why do you think men aren't strippers, you;d guess women wanna see nakes guys? The answer is men aren't taught to make thenmselves objects for others' enjoyment and women are. I mean turn on then TV for god sake when was the last time you saw a female rapper in a track suit surrounded by men in string thongs shakin that-ass then the woman pours liquor on them? Doesn't happen.

I wish women did go on welfare instead but there are huge social pressures to do certain things.

"Anonymous" is right. Carpenter you like looking up stats. Check to see who works most of the overtime in the US. Working fathers or anyone else?

LOL!!!!

A huge pride issue from going on welfare, so she strips and has sex for rides to these strip shows... I gotta see what you wrote next.

Carpenter you're one of a kind... don't breed.

I mean turn on then TV for god sake when was the last time you saw a female rapper in a track suit surrounded by men in string thongs shakin that-ass then the woman pours liquor on them? Doesn't happen.
-Carpenter

I know I wouldn't want to see that, but I can't help but ask whether there are many women who strongly feel the opposite.

If the compensation for the position was 100+k a year than you can gaurentee that more men would do it. But since it doesn't, somebody has to go out and earn a paycheck.

Fine but alls I'm saying is that amount of work you do isn't neccesarily proportional to the social status you rack up in this society. I have fools on here trying to say that women and blacks dont take responsibility for themselves and the proof is that they are poorer and/or dy at alarming rates. That logic is wrong, you can take responsibility for yourself and eveyone around you and still not make money or get healthier.

To my peeps who doubt the stats they are from the US census. Why would they lie? I'm notntryin to get the stats to say shit. They are true look for your damn self and unbiased so answer me why do black people die sooner and stay poorer. Someone give me an answer to this question.

carpenter - "Again why do you think men aren't strippers, you;d guess women wanna see nakes guys? "

obviously carpenter hasn't been to a male strip show or bridal shower. Women go wild over naked men.

I was a male stripper in my last year of college nd a couple of years after. The money was awesome! But I'm better looking than the duke rape accuser.

“Women earn less than men?� Statistics showing that women make about 80 percent of men's wages fail to account for differences identified in Warren Farrell's new book, "Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap and What Women Can Do About It." It’s unfair to compare a waitress and an Alaskan crab fisherman, women who work part-time and men who work fulltime, or wives and husbands in the same fields without adjusting for mothers who take time off for childbirth leaving fathers to work overtime to make ends meet. This myth is misleading and only breeds resentment for fathers who are only trying to provide for their families.

Well obviously your life experience isn't much, Noname. What are you? 12?

Marriage is an ancient, barbaric, church and state sanctioned institution by which men could obtain legal ownership of women and children as property.

But we're to believe it is men that ran from it like the plague? ROFL. Um, no, it's the opposite way around.

So like, were your parents really disappointed about all those "F's" you brought home in history class?

And pssst... I practice what I preach. There are no men in my life. I've terminated all personal relationships with them. They weren't happy about it, but oh well, them's the breaks! But you know, as the old saying goes, a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.

You see, women can live just fine without men. It's you boys that can't live without women. And obviously, it pisses you off. Because every time we even talk about cutting the apron strings, you boys go absolutely testerical. And then you try and guilt trip us as Hujo attempted to. Man-haters, ROFL. If feminists were man-haters, he wouldn't exist! You see, all women are feminists, whether they identify by the label or not.

But while we're on the subject, can you give women any good reason why they should like men? Can you give any good reason why people of color should like white men? I sure can't think of any. Maybe you could help me out?

It's the strangest thing tho. Every time I ask the question, no one is able to answer it. It's one of those questions that just stumps people.

Posts about Duke-related stuff are where most of the trolls on my blog lurk too :/

Keep up the great work with Feministing! Your/Feministing's honest and unflinching voice about cases like Duke is very needed and important. Much support.

Many things
Maybe she doen't wanna be on welfare, there is a huge pride issue about going on welfare maybe she feels the need to make it somehow on her own, you know people do tend to really look down on poeple on welfare.
-Carpenter

Yes, but for the most part only because they suspect that their welfare is being abused. The whole reason we have welfare is so that young unwed mothers who fall on hard times will have the option not to give
up their child(ren).

carpenter - I have looked at those stats, but you just can't look at stats to support what you want to see in them.

You have to look at the methodology of how they were collected and compiled. Then you have to hypothesize that the data is a true representation of society. The sample group has to be huge, the research cross varified.

Too many special interest groups cherry pick data and stats t support what they want to say. People are getting wise to this.

Luckynkl - we boys can live just fine without people like you.

Luckily their far better women out there to share our lives with while you go cuddle with your stats.

You see, women can live just fine without men.
-Luckynkl

Sure they can, maybe even better than men, but what is the point? If you'd like to deprive yourself of men entirely then go ahead.

WOmen work overtime by bearing and raising children and being on call 24 hrs a damn day to take care of them. 100k goddammit.

Im not gona say women dont enjoy male strippers, human love to see other naked humans, But there is an enourmous industry bent on catering to men sexual desires, porn, strippers, prostitution etc. There is NO thing of equivalent magnitude bent on catering to womens sexual desires. Women are things to be looked at. I mean just look at how you guys talk about this stripper who none of us know, nasty
dried up ugly lying bitch.
You also appear to think strippers have/ desserve no self respect bacause if they did they wouldn't be strippers, they would be on welfare. I mean you guys obviously have no respect for strippers at all, and so you expect them to have no respect for themselves. BTW I will now mention the impracticality of it if all sex workers went on welfare, that would be hell of a lot more people on welfare, big strain for a system that is barly making it as is. And FYI many strippers do take solice in the fact that though they have had it tough in life they are still ab;e to support the families/themselves without government assistance afterall there are a shitload of people rinning them down asking why thye dint "take responsibility"

Luckynkl - "But while we're on the subject, can you give women any good reason why they should like men? Can you give any good reason why people of color should like white men? I sure can't think of any. Maybe you could help me out?"

I'm not a qualified psychologist. But I do agree. Your blind hate of men needs professional help.

Fine but alls I'm saying is that amount of work you do isn't neccesarily proportional to the social status you rack up in this society.
-Carpenter

No race can prosper till it learns that there is as much dignity in tilling a field as in writing a poem.
-Booker T. Washington

carpenter - "WOmen work overtime by bearing and raising children and being on call 24 hrs a damn day to take care of them. 100k goddammit."

Working fathers do just as much, if not more.

>>>Posts about Duke-related stuff are where most of the trolls on my blog lurk too.

Yeah, isn't it cool to know how alive and well the KKK and White Male Supremacy is? No doubt it's inspired by their leader Dubya. Can't wait to see the expression on their face and watch their dicks go limp when Dubya sends them all off to war.

anon it the us census, nithing is cherry picked. They draw a poverty line then count people below it. If you dont like that go to each state and city and look at thier owm data. Also the NIH, they count up all the dead people then see hw old they were, then see what race they are. These aren't small sample sizes, these are as large a sample sized as you can hope for. Also I'm sorry that you think every anthropologist who every studied third world work patterns is wrong.

Stop avoiding the question why are you afraid to me why you think black people die sooner and arethrice as likly to be poor?

Luke
Thanx

>>>Working fathers do just as much, if not more.

ROFL. Telling the kids to go to their mother is not work.

Sorry bucko, but as 20/20 reported, the average father spends 30 seconds a day of quality time with their kids. 30 seconds. Why, it takes me longer to bring up a sneeze.

Goddess, you boys are legends in your own minds. But then, you always did have an over-active imagination and fantasy life.

Now turn off the tv and quit acting as if all those fairy tales you boys make up and put on the screen are real. And no, pressing buttons on the remote is not work either.

I, like noname, am interested to see what the other members of feministing have to say about this post.

I've been visiting this site for a few months and rarely comment (I generally agree with the posts). Occasionally I read a post that is somewhat over the top. That'll happen when one is so passionate about a given topic.

But this post went way past over the top to Rush Limbaugh / Ann Coulter territory.

Equating "innocent" with "kill those Nazi rapists"? Oi vey!

Who abuses welfare and why doesn't change the fact that some people don't wanna go on it for reasons I have just stated.

Also
Fine but alls I'm saying is that amount of work you do isn't neccesarily proportional to the social status you rack up in this society.
and Im even going to add that there is in fact probably an inverse correlation.

Stop avoiding the question why are you afraid to me why you think black people die sooner and arethrice as likly to be poor?
-Carpenter

I didn't mean to dodge your question. There are alot of arguments going on in this forum and it's hard to reply to every question instantaneously.

I don't doubt your statistics either. The problem I think is that blacks aren't very well educated and they don't seem very inspired. I'm not sure of all the reasons why this might be, but I know black people are capable of being much better than they currently may be.

I don't doubt your statistics either. The problem I think is that blacks aren't very well educated and they don't seem very inspired

-aha!

Carpenter – Im not gona say women dont enjoy male strippers, human love to see other naked humans, But there is an enourmous industry bent on catering to men sexual desires, porn, strippers, prostitution etc. There is NO thing of equivalent magnitude bent on catering to womens sexual desires.

Once women are made to feel that it’s okay to like seeing naked men, the industry will change even more.

Carpenter – Women are things to be looked at. I mean just look at how you guys talk about this stripper who none of us know, nasty
dried up ugly lying bitch.

No one said she was dried up. I specifically said she was “dripping with DNA� from her gang bang with her boyfriend and two drivers.

Carpenter – “You also appear to think strippers have/ desserve no self respect bacause if they did they wouldn't be strippers, they would be on welfare. “

Like I said, I was a stripper. I didn’t feel I had no respect or self respect. It was the women paying me couple hundred to couple thousand a night for a couple of hours work. They’re the ones with no self respect.

Carpenter – I mean you guys obviously have no respect for strippers at all, and so you expect them to have no respect for themselves. BTW I will now mention the impracticality of it if all sex workers went on welfare, that would be hell of a lot more people on welfare, big strain for a system that is barly making it as is.

Nah! You can’t make as much money on welfare, and you have less restrictions.

Carpenter – And FYI many strippers do take solice in the fact that though they have had it tough in life they are still ab;e to support the families/themselves without government assistance afterall there are a shitload of people rinning them down asking why thye dint "take responsibility"

Actually I never experienced any of that. Of course people would try to make themselves feel better by running other people down, but they’re at the shows gawking at you, so how much better than me could they be? People were always hapy to run into me in public, try to start conversation, trying to learn more about me… I got my school loans paid off within two years of graduating, I got a new car and an awesome apartment, nad all my salary from my career was gravy. I’m telling you, people get into stripping for the money. Whether it’s for responsible use or for drugs. Most strippers in the biz for awhile get too deep into drugs. I’m glad I got out before I was 25. But I don’t regret one minute. Maybe strippers are treated bad in NC, but I’ve been hired to work in CA, NY, Cananda, Japan, and England. I grew up poor, but I got to see the world before I was 25. The unfair thing is that top girl strippers get paid more to lease out.

aha!
-Carpenter

I meant compared to whites and other ethnic groups as a whole.

I never said anything about their intelligence, just the education or lack of it that they seem to be recieving.

okay. I got a life. this was fun. Hope we can do it again sometime.

During this rant. I've eaten dinner, sat down and went over my kids homework with them, and now I gotta go back to what's important in my life.

You guys... are fun.

Most of the people I hang around with are educated with respectable opinions and perspectives. It's nice breaking away from that once in awhile and expose myself to different calibur of people.

Hujo and anonymous, you're awesome people in a room full of hmmm...
keep it up!

Also
Fine but alls I'm saying is that amount of work you do isn't neccesarily proportional to the social status you rack up in this society.
and Im even going to add that there is in fact probably an inverse correlation.
-carpenter

yes, but often it's not the amount of work you do, but the end result of all that work that matters.

Oooh, fun thread drift!

70% of women in the U.S. have made it clear that they have no desire whatsoever to get married or bear children. But 90% of men want and fully expect to. See the problem we have here, boys? You're not amusing to us any more. Which may not be in your best interests. Because it is only by women's good grace that any of you boys even exist at all.

I keep seeing you bring this stat up, but I've never managed to corroborate it. Do you have a cite for this? It's a statistic much starker than the reality I see around me, so I'd really be interested in a cite.

You see, women can live just fine without men. It's you boys that can't live without women. And obviously, it pisses you off. Because every time we even talk about cutting the apron strings, you boys go absolutely testerical. And then you try and guilt trip us as Hujo attempted to.

Men go "testerical" partly because no one likes to be abandoned. Why else do you think it is? I ask that question genuinely.

You claim to have cut all men from your life. I assume that all these men hurt you in some way? Then I wouldn't blame you for it. Otherwise, I have a this comical scene in my mind running where luckynkl is wearing a funny hat and excommunicating random guys.

Man-haters, ROFL. If feminists were man-haters, he wouldn't exist! You see, all women are feminists, whether they identify by the label or not.

Even Phyllis Schlafly?

But while we're on the subject, can you give women any good reason why they should like men?

I know lots of women who like music written by men, for example. I know women who've had illnesses that were saved by male doctors. Lots of things like that. Should women like all men? No. Should women like men as a class? Mmmmm, probably not.

Can you give any good reason why people of color should like white men? I sure can't think of any. Maybe you could help me out?

I'm not white so I don't know how effect this has on my answer, but I know why some people of colour should like some white men. I'm a person of colour and there are white men I happen to like quite a bit.

Like all white men? Nah.

see there aren't that many male strippers different ball game. Chippendales and Vegas acts are waaaaaayyy different than the redlight districts and all girl reveus in most towns. There are tons of lady strippers and becuase of that they are more expendable. If you have no skills and want less hours then stripping will get you by but if you're a lady on the bottom of the circut your not getting 1000 bucks a lap dance, in the twon I live you get 20 bucks and no health insurance and we have a fucktopn of stripers joints. I mysekf know grip of people who stripped through college trying to make it on thier own. They defintiely had a pride thing. Plus when I was talking about strippers, you immediatly made refernce to a certain stripper who you think is a skank. Taht is why I assume you don't have respect for strippers.

see there aren't that many male strippers different ball game. Chippendales and Vegas acts are waaaaaayyy different than the redlight districts and all girl reveus in most towns. There are tons of lady strippers and becuase of that they are more expendable. If you have no skills and want less hours then stripping will get you by but if you're a lady on the bottom of the circut your not getting 1000 bucks a lap dance, in the twon I live you get 20 bucks and no health insurance and we have a fucktopn of stripers joints. I mysekf know grip of people who stripped through college trying to make it on thier own. They defintiely had a pride thing. Plus when I was talking about strippers, you immediatly made refernce to a certain stripper who you think is a skank. Taht is why I assume you don't have respect for strippers.
-Carpenter

Tell me what you think women would be willing to pay good money for. I'm all ears, seriously.

yes, but often it's not the amount of work you do, but the end result of all that work that matters.

right buut the people onthe bottom of the coial scale make the whole world possible. If it wasn't for the people that work for slave wages in factories that make the cost of living low enough that other people can sit on thier ass and write blog entries. THomas Jefferson only had time to write and think cause 100 black people were growinghis foor rending his fortune an wiping his ass. There is no clear distinction as to what the end product of whose work is. IF it wasn't for the bottom the top wouldnt happen at all.

I meant compared to whites and other ethnic groups as a whole.

I never said anything about their intelligence, just the education or lack of it that they seem to be recieving.

Right and please clarify what you mean when you think blacks could be "better". I wouldnt use that word. Maybe healthier or less poor.

Dont you think maybe he reason blacks dont live as long and are poorer is because of a horrible legacy of discrimiation and poor opportunities? Isnt that what this thread is really about? People that are blind for whatever reason to the pight of people that have it worse than them? My question really is if blacks are poorer, do you think its all thier fault?

Mandos,
do you like white people as a group?