The university has no objection to this, but you know damn well if they were wearing armbands reading, "Kill those Nazi rapists," they would.

Well, I would hope so. There's a rather large gulf of tone and intent between "innocent" and "kill those Nazi rapists". I would presume that "shut the lying bitch up" would be similarly frowned upon, even without the threat of mortal violence.

You wouldn't stand up for a friend that you believe is been accused of a crime he/she didn't commit?
I honestly don't understand how you link this to the complicity in "silencing and vicitimization of women of color", but besides that, you are obviously showing solidarity with the accuser. Why is that accepting and not the way around?
Being accused of a crime, and been actually found guilty of that same crime are two very different things, but it seems that you don't feel that way and that you already pronounced those men guilty.
Why?
Regarding the message, well it's simply freedom of speech, since as far as I know the men from the lacrosse team haven't been judged guilty and of course I agree with the post above about the differences between having a bracelet that says "innocent" and one that says "kill those nazi rapists".
So, please, tell me: if the solidarity of this women, that actually have the guts to stand up for their friends that they believe innocent, makes "our culture intolerable for me", what kind of solidarity is acceptable for you?

Has anyone been convicted yet? No? Then stop whining.

What they're doing isn't baout issues of race or gender, but that they want to support their fellow teammates if they believe they're innocent. What they're doing is no worse than what you're doing saying "It's only because she's black and a woman! Because she's so oppressed, she'd never lie!" and wearing an armband saying "guilty"

I think the media is the biggest racist of them all.

this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color.

You dont feel the least bit ashamed for using this case to perpetuate your anti-white agenda? They probably don't think much off the womens colour, but nice of you to make white people sound like a bunch of racists,all white team hey???? It is surprising to hear it said about women.

You dont think it is the press cashing in on the race story and you lapping it up?

You know that girl looks japenese in the pic and
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=285322
This girl looks black why is it white women only to blame for this?

In the AP story there is no mention of the womens skin colour? Very confusing Samhita?

I guess I have a different reaction.

The "no means yes" guys were absolutely stomach turning. Their message was not that the Duke lacrosse players had not committed rape, but that they had, and that that was OK. In their world, women exist solely for their pleasure, and they seem incapable of feeling even the slightest bit of empathy for what a rape victim might feel.

The Duke women's lacrosse team, on the other hand, does not seem to be making any such global statement about rape or sexual politics. Rather, they seem to be making a factual statement -- that they believe the defendants, who they know personally, are innocent. Obviously, they might be right about that and they might be wrong about that. But one can be a strong opponent of rape and advocate of victims' rights and still believe that a particular charge is unfounded.

I really enjoy this site and usually find it very informative but (you knew there had to be a but) I am so sick and tired of you making it seem like those boys were found guilty. In the good 'ole US of A you are innocent until PROVEN guilty, have you not heard of that before? Also do you live down here? I do and I was watching TV when the news broke, here was one of the 911 calls that you never ever heard of again. It was a women calling saying that 'her and a friend walked past the frat house a bunch of guys called out names to them and they didn't know what to do so they were calling 911 to report it because it made them so upset.' Then she starts crying, and it does sound very phony, but that is my opinion and she says 'they called us nigger,' and then very loud sobs 'we were just driving by boo hoo boo hoo'. Okay did you catch the discrepency here. First they were walking past and then they were driving past, umm which was it? or were did you do both and maybe you were antagonizing them? My belief is that is was a fake call, why? because it was found out to be the girl and her friend that was with her. For some reason you do not hear about this - it played once in the news in the very beginning and that was it. Is the DA hiding this? Are the defense attornies hiding this for an ace in their pocket? Who knows. There was also another call made afterwards which is also very confusing.
Do I a white female think they are innocent? Yes, until they have had their trial and are PROVEN guilty.
Do my black female friends think they are innocent? Yes for the same reason. Don't make this a black/white thing - there was enough of that going on in the beginning and nearly caused riots. How do we know this is not another Tawana Brawley case? Do you remember her? I do, I again lived not to far from where that happened.

Oh I also wanted to add - do I feel sympathy and compassion for the girl - of course I do. No woman should have to go through what she did.
Do I believe in those other guys chanting 'no means yes' of course not. We have come to far to slide back to that mentality - even though I know some still believe it.

In the good 'ole US of A you are innocent until PROVEN guilty, have you not heard of that before?

Legally, that is true. But nobody handed anybody her a gavel, ‘kay? Besides, you’re missing the whole point of what she means.

It was a women calling saying that 'her and a friend walked past the frat house a bunch of guys called out names to them and they didn't know what to do so they were calling 911 to report it because it made them so upset.' Then she starts crying, and it does sound very phony, but that is my opinion and she says 'they called us nigger,'

I heard the calls, it is all over the internet. I don’t know why you’re acting like it is being hidden. But anyway it sounded to me like it was the other woman crying. The reason the woman probably lied is because she had a warrant out, something understandable. You know, just like people say the Duke Men lying about it being 5 people, a bachelor party, lying about their names is understandable because they were “shy�.

"I mean they are making themselves look so stupid to stand in solidarity with accused rapists." - Samhita

I hope if I were ever accused of a crime, and the evidence was overwhelmingly in my favor, that my friends would stand in solidarity with me. Do you put your political agenda above your friends? If so, I guess we define “friendship� differently (also “accused�).

Did it occur to you that the women’s team might think the accused ARE innocent? Did it occur to you that the accused might BE innocent?

BTW, you forgot to trash the parents of the accused for standing behind their children in direct opposition to your politics. They are obviously racist and sexist.

"This is indeed the type of solidarity that often makes our culture intolerable for me." - Samhita

I suggest you work on trying to tolerate other people’s opinions, even when those people are of a different race than you.

"The university has no objection to this, but you know damn well if they were wearing armbands reading, 'Kill those Nazi rapists,' they would." - Samhita

So you are equating "kill those Nazi rapists" to "innocent"? Seriously?

I am curious what the rest of Femisting thinks of this post. Jessica, is Samhita's post representative of what this site is about? What do you think about this issue on a personal level? I have tried not to single out Samhita's posts in the past despite my personal opinion that they are not up to the level of intelligence of the rest on this site. In this case, however, I have to ask if Feministing as an organization stands behind this drivel.

Samhita has been copping a lot of flack lately regarding this issue. I think it's because in every article regarding this issue that she's written, she's stated that the La Cross players as a whole are guilty.

Ease up there Samhita, this whol sexist/racist thing you've got going isn't doing anything or your image.

I think it is important to keep in mind that while those three men may or may not be guilty of raping that girl, they definately are guilty of writing out emails saying it was ok and fun to rape and murder women. That is what makes this so appalling to me. Myabe they're innocent of rape, but their certainly not innocent of raging, violent, and disturbing misgony, which is enough to make it apalling that the women's team would support that.

It wouldn't matter if my friends were innocent or guilty of their accused crime, but if they punctuated their crime with a lot of scary hate speech, I would have to re-evaluate my friendship with such a person.

I personally don't care if they think the boys are innocent or guilty, or whether they wear those bracelets on their own time; I just think this has no place at a family sporting event.

The big question is, will they get pissy when Northwestern responds with trucker hats that say, "don't drop the soap!"

SarahS, all the email was was a reference to the movie American Psycho. The womens team knows the men a lot better than you ever will, and I get the feeling they wouldn't be absolutely jumping to their defense if the men were engaging in "raging, violent, and disturbing misogyny."

They know this stripper is a liar just like everybody else who's fairly looked at the evidence released so far. Is there any castration-type procedure that could be performed on her so she'll quit making up rape accusations?

My, my – look what Title IV has wrought. Not quite the solidarity the sisterhood was looking for.

“this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color.�

But of coarse it is Karl. It simply cannot be anything else. I suggest a show trail & re-education processing. Damn false consciousness!

I think that in the end, the truth will speak for itself. The Washington Post has an excellent article on this very topic that is being discussed here in this comments section.

"I think it is important to keep in mind that while those three men may or may not be guilty of raping that girl, they definately are guilty of writing out emails saying it was ok and fun to rape and murder women." - SarahS

Ryan McFadden wrote the tasteless email. David Evans, Reade Seligmann, and Collin Finnerty are accused of rape. If you don't know the basic facts of the case, please refrain from commenting on it.

"That is what makes this so appalling to me. Myabe they're innocent of rape, but their certainly not innocent of raging, violent, and disturbing misgony, which is enough to make it apalling that the women's team would support that.

It wouldn't matter if my friends were innocent or guilty of their accused crime, but if they punctuated their crime with a lot of scary hate speech, I would have to re-evaluate my friendship with such a person." - SaraS

What exactly are they guilty of? Someone at that party allegedly made a racist comment. Where did you see that it was one of these three? Where did you see that is was one of the lacrosse players (there were others at the party)? The dancers allegedly made racist and sexist comments to the players. Should we condemn any friends and family who support them, too?

Strange day it is when a woman stands up for the minor principle that a rape victim shouldn't be subject of endless assaults on her honesty and all she gets is abuse. Lesson: If you get raped, shut up about it because otherwise people will get the idea that there's something wrong with rape.

If it was a black man accused of raping a white women the press would be called racist for making it about race. They would be criminalizing a black man. When it is white on black it is a huge story that cashes in on societies new prejudice that white men are the only racists on the planet. This allways sells lots of papers regardless if their was actualy any racial motivation at all. (Katrina, McKinney)

I am staying the f away from this case because of the media. It is sick how “concerned� people capitalize on other peoples misery, be it the raped girl or the falsely accused men.

If I drew political cartoons I would depict mra's, feminist's, cival rights people and rednecks, all of them standing over, drooling and pulling at the limbs of this girl like a turkey wish bone all of them with dirty dollar bills in their back pockets.

Its sickning.

Calm down there Hujo. The media is only feeding off of what people will respond to seeing. As you say, they are selling papers. It's a business. Look at the 28 comments this thread has, far more than any other thread. People like to look at things through the prism of someone else's soap opera. In any case I'm trying to stay away from this story too, though I have a different take in that it does expose the class and racial and sexual divisions of society, except that it shouldn't take a story like this one to expose those divisions to discussion.

Why calm down? I write from the heart.

Samhita has been copping a lot of flack lately regarding this issue. I think it's because in every article regarding this issue that she's written, she's stated that the La Cross players as a whole are guilty.

You mean, other than in the post you're responding to, in which she said nothing of the sort? Wow, are you dumb.

Ease up there Samhita, this whol sexist/racist thing you've got going isn't doing anything or your image.

Just so you know: There's an "f" in "for." And an "e" in "whole." And an "idiot" at your keyboard.

Here's the strange thing - I've gotten more trolls when I've posted about the Duke rape case than any other issue in the four years I've been blogging. And it's not just me and Samhita. Every feminist blogger who has blogged about the Duke case, that I know of, has been deluged with previously-unknown levels of trollish idiotcy.

What's that about?

Here's what I think: A lot of people are outraged that a black stripper who isn't a "perfect witness" is being taken seriously. A lot of people are outraged that white lacrosse players are being inconvenienced by the tiny matter of a rape accusation.

People are pissed off because the fact that this woman's accusations are being taken seriously upends the established order of the universe. How dare they take her seriously! She's black! She's a stripper! She has a boyfriend, she claims to have been raped once before, and on and on and on.

It's all irrational. None of that proves she hasn't been raped. And in any non-racist, non-woman-hating system, accusations of rape should always be taken seriously and investigated.

So why are so many trolls so incredibly pissed off? Why has this case gotten their goat so much?

"So why are so many trolls so incredibly pissed off? Why has this case gotten their goat so much?" - Ampersand

Because this case is a prime example of people's political agendas superseding evidence of fact.

BTW - Calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll is pretty childish. Calling someone an idiot because because they forgot to spell-check their post is, too.

I don't have time to answer this with the attention taht I'd like to because I'm in the middle of moving and am literally on a uhual right now, but once I'm home I'll write something longer. For now I just want to say that Samhita is brilliant and I support her in all things. More to come once I'm moved...

“So why are so many trolls so incredibly pissed off? Why has this case gotten their goat so much?�

But it seems the trolls are not the only ones pissed off. It seems (from the subject of this post) that the all girls Duke lacrosse team is also rather upset. So upset so as to launch an informal protest & show of solidarity with their friends. Like I said, look what title VI has wrought?

“And in any non-racist, non-woman-hating system, accusations of rape should always be taken seriously and investigated.�

Well they are being taken seriously….and viewed as seriously specious by the very WOMEN who know these men most intimately. Quite the sisterhood, and at such a prestigious school of influence. All that work and mainstream womyn of power take the side of the patriarchy when reality dawns. Apparently they don’t think the whole Racist/Sexist thing does much for their image.

I can assure you that I’m not angry, rather amused.

"So why are so many trolls so incredibly pissed off? Why has this case gotten their goat so much?" - Ampersand

Because this case is a prime example of people's political agendas superseding evidence of fact.

No, it's not. It's not like the three accused players are being sent up a river without a trial; they're going to have a full trial and they have excellent lawyers.

And it's not like you know what the evidence really is, either. For the last several weeks, we've heard only what the defense attorneys have to say. We haven't heard it under oath, in an environment in which opposing council has a chance to ask questions.

That's not "evidence of fact." You don't seem to realize this, but you don't know if you know the full facts or not. You don't know what will stand up under examination and what will not. Your belief that you do know for certain what happened, before a trial even takes place, is the real example of a political agenda superseding evidence of fact.

I don't know if the players are guilty or not. My only "political agenda" here is that I think even a woman who is a (gasp!) stripper and is (oh no!) black and (horrors!) accusing nice college boys should have her accusation taken seriously and investigated. If that happens, and if there's a fair trial, then I'm satisfied.

Finally, I don't call anyone who disagrees with me a troll. There are many folks who have disagreed with me, who I'd never call trolls. I do call people who say abusive nonsense like "I suggest a show trail & re-education processing" trolls.

Learn the difference between intelligent, reasonable disagreement and trollhood. Pretending that objecting to the latter is the same as objecting to the former is not reasonable or honest.

Finally, I agree that spelling flames, including ones made by me, are stupid. So sue me.

I haven't made up my mind whether I think these boys are guilty of rape or other crime, but I have to side with Ampersand and Samhita here: the rumors about the victim/witness in question have entirely obscured the only hard information we have about the case:

1. The defense claim that the victim/witness gave several versions of her story is based on the initial call made by a security guard, his report, and another security guard's report. As an EMT I can assure you, third party 911 calls just about never tell us what's actually going on. We've been called for cardiac chest pain to find someone stabbed and rectal bleeding to find someone with a dog bite. The guards admitted she was hysterical when they found her and next to impossible to understand. Their own reports, written later, don't agree with each other. Having dealt with hysterical people, that's expected. They did the right thing calling the police and handing her off.

2. Trained medical professionals confirmed presence of evidence consistent with a violent rape during their pelvic exam in the ER.

3. Semen from three different men was found in her, leading to the defense claim that she had sex with three different men prior to going to the party. She's yet to release a statement contradicting her initial claim that she was raped by three men. (Admittedly, the DNA does not match the accused.)

4. Some level of force caused her to leave the party with bruises and fewer fingernails then she arrived with, as evidenced in the frat's own time stamped photos. She did not arrive dishevelled, least nowhere near so much as she left, contrary to the defense argument.

5. She left in such a hurry at one point that she left her belongings behind.

6. She's on record as having alleged a rape for which the suspect was not found guilty, this means only that there was insufficient evidence to convict the suspect of rape, not that she had lied. If there was sufficient evidence to try her for false allegations, she would have been indicted. Those demanding we wait for the trial to convict in the public square would do well to remember there's a similar courtesy for accusing witnesses.

Those are just a few of the facts as they stand in this case, my point being only that no one has proven the victim/witness a liar and I'm sick of seeing vitriol flung at anyone who stands up for her, especially from other women who are so quick to roll over and make nice with the accused rapist apologists. Do you think the particular men pointing fingers at rape victims will make an exception for you because you sided with them against another victim? Dream on. Here's hoping no woman has to learn that lesson.

Felix, how can you say OJ was "murderous"? He's never been found guilty at a trial, after all. If there's one thing I've heard from defenders of the lacrosse players a thousand times over, it's that it's wrong to say someone's guilty of a crime if they haven't been convicted in a court of law.

Don't you believe in "innocent until proved guilty?"

:-P

If you want to have an opinion about the duke rape accusation, that's fine. I have one too. Courts of law, judges and juries are obligated to assume "innocent" until a court of law proves otherwise, but you and I are not.

But I hope you'll acknowledge that your opinion could be mistaken. I don't think we know very much here at all, and I think it's an error to imagine you know anything for certain when we basically haven't heard anything for weeks but the defense lawyers' spins.

No one is saying "well she's a woman so we MUST believe her." That's a strawman. What people are objecting to is the rush to judgment from the "she's obviously a liar" crowd, before a trial has even happened.

What people are objecting to is the easy assumption that if a black single mother stripper accuses someone of rape, then she's probably a liar.

I don't know if a rape happened or not. But I know that the DA and cops are doing the right thing to not assume she's a liar; and I know the "screw having a trial! She's obviously a liar!" crowd isn't making an argument based in reason.

Why the retreat from the actual substance of the post into another fruitless discussion of potential guilt or innocence? (going wide?) Why the specious observations on looming “trolls� and their inner motivations. (dime store Freud?)

Why not a full throated defense of Samhita’s own observation?

“But really, this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and victimization of women of color. I mean they are making themselves look so stupid to stand in solidarity with accused rapists. Have gender relations in upper middle class white world shifted such a small bit? I mean really?�

I think these womyn look brave and loyal myself.

felix didn't you promise us you were leaving for that better site?

first off, i support this posting because it is very, very ridiculous for the (white) women to show their support for alleged rapists--

second, whether you folks want to accept the truth or not, this is a "black/white" issue. this is the united states dammit, where race/racism is ALWAYS at play.

third, samhita, you hit the nail right on the head. and yes, i am showing her solidarity because she is a woman of color--shit, that's all whites let us have.

Fitz, I am also rather amused. I am amused at your reference:

Like I said, look what title VI has wrought?

Title IV of what? You claim to be a lawyer. you claim to be a trial lawyer, IIRC. You wrote it twice, which essentially excludes the possibility of typographical error: apparently you did mean to type "title VI." What provision of what statute are you talking about?

“But really, this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and victimization of women of color. I mean they are making themselves look so stupid to stand in solidarity with accused rapists. Have gender relations in upper middle class white world shifted such a small bit? I mean really?�

In the primate world chimpanzees have been found to be war-like animals, invading other 'tribes', killing the pregnant or nursing females, eating the babies and then raping the fertile females.

And all during these raids, the alpha females of the offending pack aid and abet in the killing, cannibalism and raping. That is, until the males find new alpha-females in the conquered tribe to replace them.

These women are just reacting like the alpha-females they believe to be. Because, you know, they're going to become useless to the guys pretty soon.

It's just the law of their jungle.

Where's the part where the non-alpha female jungle chimpanzee fabricates that she was raped?

a lot of folks are talking about the guys are innocent until proven guilty. however, those same folks are yelling about the victim as being a "liar." why is she already proven to be guilty of lying...

oh yeah, she's black. i forgot.

"It's just the law of their jungle:

The one in the glasses to the left of the photo dont look like an Alpha to me.

First of all, due to the fact that Feministing has a policy that doesn’t condone name-calling and offensive language, we will delete comments and ban users that continue to attack Samhita or anyone on the site.

In addition to Samhita’s thoughts on this post (which I totally support), maybe a reason why these girls are doing this is a kind of coping mechanism. They are friends with and see the male lacrosse team on a regular basis, and are supporting them with the hope and need to believe that they, as women, are safe at their own school. After all, if the rape was committed by the three lacrosse players, then these girls would be at risk of being raped as well.

Additionally, I’m going to say in response to the perception that people seem to have that Feministing has automatically convicted the Duke players, is that we, as feminists, have a responsibility not to deem the lacrosse players as rapists, but to support this woman who obviously had something traumatic happen to her and is blatantly being demonized by the media and the masses. (Many of these comments are proof of that!)

And lastly, to criticize Samhita’s writing or character and falsely accusing her of things she never even wrote is inappropriate and tasteless. She’s merely discussing the sexist/racist issues surrounding this case and to give her shit for that is just -- for lack of a better word -- silly. After all, did y’all forget our name is Feministing?

"OHMIGOD, whut r u guys tlking about?? theyre like, soooooooo ttlly innocent!! LOLOLOL gEt iT wErE tHe KeWl PPle haha!!"

I think this is what they're saying in the photo, except for the one on the far left, who's having a stroke.

Whatever your politics is, I think we all can agree, bracelets that completely shun someone who says s/he was a victim of a crime is not something you should want to flaunt. Nonetheless make FASHION statements out of. The case is not over, and yes we all naturally tend to pick sides, but we all know what kind of world we live in. And this case is loaded with a lot of our world's garbage.

Fitz,

Sometime ago in Natural History Magazine there was a small followup about the killer chimps study.

Beauty or submissiveness are actually not the measure of "alpha-femaleness" in primates. Interestingly enough, alpha-femaleness has nothing to do with looks and all to do with their ability to scheme against other females and even kill them or terrorize other females by killing their babies or making them abort. The better organized her posse is, the higher in the totem pole will an alpha-female be.

And the aggression is not against weaker chimps but equally strong ones. And yes, they do the killing and "coup de chimping" in packs.

So that one with the glasses and the fierce look on her face may be homely but believe me, by chimp standards, she's a total silverback.

And by the way, it totally explains Babara Bush's mystique.

OK, I’m turned around.
They’re all victims of false consciousness; except for number 13.
She is actually a loyal comrade, attempting to subvert these saboteurs from the inside.

Tee hee, I love the "alpha female" comparisons...they'd better enjoy their salad days, because for such "alpha" girls, it all goes downhill after 25.

Heather Chandler: You were nothing before you met me. You were a bluebird. You were a brownie. You were a girlscout cookie.

"Interestingly enough, alpha-femaleness has nothing to do with looks and all to do with their ability to scheme against other females and even kill them or terrorize other females by killing their babies or making them abort. The better organized her posse is, the higher in the totem pole will an alpha-female be."

Sounds like the ladies of Feministing:)

How about bracelets that completely shun someone who made a false rape accusation against a close friend of yours?

As for an earlier comment, when it finally comes out definitively that the stripper made all this up, are you still going to support her, or will there be any regret over the shameful thing she did as well as the innocent lives she wrecked?

loyal comrade

There you go again with the Communist smear. Have you figured out what in the world you meant by Title VI yet?

Sounds like the ladies of Feministing:)

Actually, no. Feminists are not looking for patriarachal validation.

Alpha-femaleness in the primate world is not just about a female ensuring her genetic code vanquishes the DNA of lesser females in the harem but also about making sure the male chooses her first.

Feminists are in theory beyond that bullshit. That it plays out in real life is a whole different story.

"Your belief that you do know for certain what happened, before a trial even takes place, is the real example of a political agenda superseding evidence of fact." - Ampersand

When did I say I knew what happened? I still don't know, although my doubt of the AV’s story has grown as the case has progressed. Why? Because I have yet to see any evidence conclusively supporting her story while I have seen a lot of evidence showing it to be less and less likely.

I get angry when I read something like Samhita's post because it shows that she has already judged the players just for being accused of a crime.

Samhita said, "they are making themselves look so stupid to stand in solidarity with accused rapists." Why is this stupid? Is it because in Samhita’s world being accused of rape is a crime in itself, or because she has already assumed their guilt of the actual crime and demands that everyone agree with her?

Maybe this has something to do with it: Samhita does say, “this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and victimization of women of color.� I should note here that Samhita has neglected to show evidence of guilt anywhere in her post. She has also refused to acknowledge the evidence already released showing problems with the AV’s story (to put it lightly). Why, I wonder, does she skip over any mention of evidence and instead delve right into a politically correct speech about silencing and victimizing of women of color? My guess is because for Samhita's political agenda is more important to her than objectivity and the actual facts of this particular case. If I am wrong, than I would be happy to listen to Samhita explain how.

I do apologize if I have been overly zealous in my posts about this case. It has become a bit of an obsession for me. I want to be very clear, however, that I have not formed any certainty about the player’s guilt or innocence, and that I resent any implication that race has affected my judgment of it as it has so many others here.

isn't it lovely how when people disagree with what you say, they take you words and manipulate them into something that you didn't say?

ahh....gotta love the idiots. (felix)

typo. you=your

"first off, i support this posting because it is very, very ridiculous for the (white) women to show their support for alleged rapists--" - nubian

Why?

"second, whether you folks want to accept the truth or not, this is a "black/white" issue. this is the united states dammit, where race/racism is ALWAYS at play.

third, samhita, you hit the nail right on the head. and yes, i am showing her solidarity because she is a woman of color--shit, that's all whites let us have." - nubian

So, do you deny that this is racist, or embrace it.

wow. this is the first comment i'm leaving on feministing, and i'm surprised and disappointed by the personal attacks that are going on in the commentary that dilute the substance of the real debate. if only we could see the faces of those posting...i'd bet we'd see a lot of racist and sexist dynamics playing out in crystal clear vision...aahh the anonymity of the internet.

but anywho...moving on....

it's really dangerous to look at the duke rape case in a vacuum. the bigger picture here is that this country was built on a foundation of racism and sexism (and that's a FACT y'all! and it wasn't too long ago), our institutions were built on that foundation, and that foundation is still "holding up the house" of the USA. whatever the facts of this one case are, we may never actually know. i don't put that much faith in the criminal justice system- just look at the numbers - over 1/3 of black men in this country are in jail? (if it was truly a criminal justice system g.w.b. and his homies would be on trial)

stepping back from the bru-ha-ha over the facts of this one case, the reality is that violence towards people of color and in communities of color occurs at much higher rates than to white folk and in white communities. and women and men of color are routinely silenced when they speak out against this violence....just look at what happened to the black panthers.

and, historically, when white folks speak out against overwhelming trends of racism (from which they inherently benefit) they're labeled as and/or treated as race traitors and have to deal with a whole other slough of issues and identity politics that can be really challenging. i would have to say that in the case of the women's lacrosse team, standing in solidarity with their racial privilege has trumped standing in solidarity with their gendered disadvantage. regardless of their support for their friends on the men's lacrosse team, the women could have had sensitivity for the larger societal issues raised in the case, and acted with measured judgement that respected both sides of the story, and both their racial and gender identities.

I am going to restrict my responses to just this. I am impressed with how much faith so many of you have in our criminal justice system.

Because women of color are never raped by white men and it goes unreported let alone not prosecuted. Because men are never found innocent, even when they are guilty of rape. Give me a break people.

I put what details I felt were relevant for this particular issue. You don't like my take, don't read my site. I said accused rapists, I never said they were guilty. But you are right, in many ways that is irrelevant to my analysis. I am interested in the bigger issues at play here, the larger narratives that dictate the language used to discuss this case.

What us feminists (of color) can do is read between the lines. It is not always about innocent until proven guilty (because some people are just guilty for who they are while others are assumed innocent for who they are, it is the very stuff our nation is made of), it is what happens between the lines, what evidence is tampered with, what things are considered inherent (like black women are beasts that just asked for it) and implicit within rape laws ESPECIALLY with women of color, or what is significant in the moments that create the dialogue around the issues.

The criminal justice system has failed women of color, so why should I trust it now?

*In response to my lack of intelligence, just cuz shit is ovah yo head is NOT my fault.

mkay?

Thanks to those of you for support. I almost teared at work, but then I was like fuck that, I do indeed know wtf I am talking about.

Okay now off to continue working on my anti-white agenda...MUWHAHAHAHAHAHA!

"Because women of color are never raped by white men and it goes unreported let alone not prosecuted. Because men are never found innocent, even when they are guilty of rape. Give me a break people." - Samhita

Who are you arguing with here? Did someone say these things?

Obviously, this is your site, so you can write about whatever you want. I for one, however, would be very interested in hearing your take on issues that have actually been brought up in these comments.

I would also like to apologize for saying that your posts are less intelligent than others on this site. It would have been more diplomatic (and accurate) to say that I do not agree with your priorities as demonstrated in many of your posts.

Samhita wrote.
"this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and victimization of women of color."

Guilty till proven innocent? Oh right feminist I forgot.

I want to know where Samhita gets this white thing from? If I am missing the proper context or something in the article then I am sorry.

But it appears all the woman players are doing this, and they are not all white. Their race was not mentioned. And I can spot two minorities from game action press shots alone???

This is where your anti-white agenda might be shining thru dear.

You might now also be a woman of true colours no?

Seriously explain please?

There was a wonderful "Cat and Girl" comic (and if you aren't familiar with this, then check it out) recently that sums up how I interpret the events that Samhita posts about: two young women are in the stands of a sports stadium, holding penants emblazoned with the word "Patriarchy," and cheering. When Cat asks which team is Patriarchy, the reply is succinct: "Both. Duh."

These girls are ensuring their future by throwing their support behind what they perceive to be the winning team -- and it ain't Duke Lacrosse.

There was a wonderful "Cat and Girl" comic (and if you aren't familiar with this, then check it out) recently that sums up how I interpret the events that Samhita posts about: two young women are in the stands of a sports stadium, holding penants emblazoned with the word "Patriarchy," and cheering. When Cat asks which team is Patriarchy, the reply is succinct: "Both. Duh."

These girls are ensuring their future by throwing their support behind what they perceive to be the winning team -- and it ain't Duke Lacrosse.

(apologies for the double-post: my fault for double-clicking)

If it makes you feel any better, pretty much everyone I know down here in the Triangle who isn't affiliated with Duke thinks she's telling the truth and that they're going to jail.

Bravo! I have this on RSS feed and read your post this morning. Thank you for sharing it.

"I do indeed know wtf I am talking about."

Which is why we read. It's truely dissapointing to see such willful ignorance of race and racism in American life. As Abyss pointed out...the fact that Ken Lay went down for his purposeful blindness...we may be looking at a new legal model of responsibility.

It would certainly put some of these comments in a different light.

The most offensive part of this is the aspect that nobody seems to have touched on. The women's team is not just some random group of "friends" of the mens' lacrosse team, they are representatives of Duke University. Anything worn with their uniforms is subject to university approval. For all intents and purposes then, Duke is proclaiming the team's innocence. This is the most outrageous part of the whole thing - the education in ethics that Duke is handing out is anything but. The Duke lacrosse season is "cancelled", but as of the end of the school year the team was still meeting and recruiting. David Evans graduated with the Duke stamp of approval on all future job applications - even though his conduct (whether or not he is found guilty of rape) violated honor code and the team he was captain of dragged the Duke name through the mud on an international level. Disgusting. If I wasn't already outraged, I'd be really angry.

The most offensive part of this is the aspect that nobody seems to have touched on. The women's team is not just some random group of "friends" of the mens' lacrosse team, they are representatives of Duke University. Anything worn with their uniforms is subject to university approval. For all intents and purposes then, Duke is proclaiming the team's innocence. This is the most outrageous part of the whole thing - the education in ethics that Duke is handing out is anything but. The Duke lacrosse season is "cancelled", but as of the end of the school year the team was still meeting and recruiting. David Evans graduated with the Duke stamp of approval on all future job applications - even though his conduct (whether or not he is found guilty of rape) violated honor code and the team he was captain of dragged the Duke name through the mud on an international level. Disgusting. If I wasn't already outraged, I'd be really angry.

"Because women of color are never raped by white men and it goes unreported let alone not prosecuted. Because men are never found innocent, even when they are guilty of rape. Give me a break people."

Yeah who cares about the innocent men or the white women raped by minorities, that you left out, those type deserve it.

Putting them in the equation would only be servicing the patriarchy the more white men in jail or ruined due to false accusations the better I say!

Less potential rapists, all men are guilty of some form of rape anyway! Especially the white men and especially against women of color they take victimizer/ victim precedence fur sure!

Keep up the good work sister!

"My, my – look what Title IV has wrought. Not quite the solidarity the sisterhood was looking for."

I suspect you mean Title IX, not Title IV. Although I'm still confused as to why prohibiting sex discrimination in educational programs and activities leads to female lacrosse players wearing these bracelets.

Obviouslt there is a problem here. Most people who aren' crazy are willing to admit rape happens. Lots of women are raped, if you can't get behind taht fact I have some swamp land for you to purchase. But when someone stands up and says she was raped, no one believes her because people only wanna see rape as a face;ess horrible blob and not something that specific humans do to other more oppressed specific humans. To all of you who are trolling, you are being defensive why?
Don't even get me started on the previous rape this woman said she went through. Why don't people believe that? Many many woman who become sex-workers, strippers, and prostitues have been raped.molested and abused in thier past. It probably is a big reason why theu ended up in that job. Why not belive her when she says she was abused before? Why think that becuase shes a stripper she shouldn't be belived about the most recent rape? Strippers often pick that job because they are on the lowest rung of society and have few other choices when having to pick a job that will support them. They are the most vulneable and the most likely to be abused.
If we all admit that rape happens and that of all people minority women in a sexualized work environment are most likely to be raped of all, then why geta ll disbelieving if one says she is raped? The answer is becuase of you admit that a woman who says she is raped might actually have been raped then the world becomes a more dangerous place for you to live in. You have to accept opression as real, and maybe question your own role in the whole thing. And you are cowards. Thats what I'm getting from this. You don't have to belive these men are guilty but you do have to believe that this is an instructive tale about race class and abuse about how this woman wound up at that party dancing for men who had obvious contemp for her race class sex and position.

Although I don't think the bracelets are a good idea, is it possible that they're meant more as a message to the Duke U. admin than to the alleged victim or to the readers of blogs like feministing? Perhaps these women do not think their peers were treated fairly by the Duke administration and this is their subtle way of sending that message.

PS Please forgive my horrible typing. A always my keyboard lacks some essentials like all functioning letter keys and a spacebar.

Lots of women are raped, if you can't get behind taht fact I have some swamp land for you to purchase. But when someone stands up and says she was raped, no one believes her because people only wanna see rape as a face;ess horrible blob and not something that specific humans do to other more oppressed specific humans. To all of you who are trolling, you are being defensive why?

Yes people do get raped no one is disputing this? No, people do believe her, some don’t, and the smart people w/o political agendas don’t know no one can actually claim to know.
Unless samhita was there witnessing the events I don’t know how she can claim she knows what she is talking about.

I am curious what the rest of Femisting thinks of this post. Jessica, is Samhita's post representative of what this site is about? What do you think about this issue on a personal level? I have tried not to single out Samhita's posts in the past despite my personal opinion that they are not up to the level of intelligence of the rest on this site. In this case, however, I have to ask if Feministing as an organization stands behind this drivel.

You, sir, are a fucking moron. I must have missed the memo that said that women of color don't get to have an opinion about issues that affect them. Really, fuckface, where do you get off coming here and telling someone that is very clearly smarter than you that she's stupid?

That kind of arrogance is absolutely disgusting, and a symptom of the overarching ills that face society today. Mainly, that white assholes think they can run everything and tell anyone that's not a white asshole what's what.

"Yeah who cares about the innocent men or the white women raped by minorities, that you left out, those type deserve it."

Except that Samhita didn't say this at all.

"Putting them in the equation would only be servicing the patriarchy the more white men in jail or ruined due to false accusations the better I say!"

Or this.

"Less potential rapists, all men are guilty of some form of rape anyway! Especially the white men and especially against women of color they take victimizer/ victim precedence fur sure!"

Try again.

And you know, reading comphrension is a pretty handy life skill.

Yeah white boys keep you head bowed in shame and remain silent! You are to stupid to know you are the scapegoat; er problem and we don't have to bother explaining it to you properly. Because you're too stupid.

If you admit people do get raped, then don't demonize this woman for saying whe was raped. She said she was raped and what do all you fools do? Immediatley call her a liar, accuse her of starting a class war a race war and being untrustworthy cause she may have been a victim before. If she says she is raped dont get on this blog and bitch about white-right and oppressed men. Don't waste your time with back handed statements about title nine. There are a million more productive thing to do and ways to learn from this story beyond jumping to conclusions about people guilt or innocence for example

Ask yourself why this woman had to turn to stripping to put herself through school in thie first place

Ask yourself why and how minority women are over worked and underpaid and die younger than white women and are twice as likley to have low birth weight babies/babies that die within the first year of life. I promise you the aasnwer to all these questions are related

Ask youself why these guys had such a contemptable attitude toward the stripper they hired and they did if they raped her or not. If they hate strippers so fucking much, and want to skin them why bring them into ther home?

Ask yourself why this team had a contemptuous attitude toward black people and felt like it was OK to say the nigger to anyone ever under any circumstances.

look into similar cases where sports teams involved in this kind of shit(eg that fucked up shit with U Colorado) Then ask yourself if these things seem isolated or endemic.

Ask yourself the stats about how many stippers/porstitute are abused/raped in thier lifetimes.

Ask yourself the stats on how many women raped all the time

Ask yourself why the press seems to thing its not OK to bbe a stripper because you risk getting raped, but it is OK to hire a stripper.

Wether or not this woman was raped, all of these question are vital to ask yourself. I maintain that THAT is the lesson to be learned. Once this woman made her statement you should have thought of all that in order to put this accusation into persepective But I maintain you are all cowards and you don't dare ask yourself any of these thing becuase its easier to scream "lying black bitch" which is what youa re doing sd don't deny it, because then you'll be liars AND cowards.

Riiight. Let me ask you all a question. Who rapes women most of the time? Call me crazy but last time I checked it was men, en rape women therefore when you are talking about rapists you are mostly talking about men. Only if you are the biggest moron on the planet will you think that this implies ALL men are rapists(if you think this go back to elementary logic class) BUT I assure you there is a problem when women get raped and if you don't think that the problem is the men (who are the rapists) then there is no hope for humanity. Whatever the thruth may be in this case I assure you that white men are NOT the general scapegoat for humanities ills. Again women get raped, everyone accept this fact but that is only half a sentence. The rest of the sentence is "by men". Have the nerve to finish the damn sentence people.

Oh please, trolls. Y'all are screaming about how the accused rapists haven't been found guilty and we shouldn't pre-judge the trial results, but then you're defending the women lacrosse players who are doing exactly that. You don't know if the accused guys did it, and neither do they.

And pretending this has nothing to do with race is just dumb. Everyone knows that Durham has a major race problem. Y'all may wish that weren't the case, but, well, it is. Before you start yelping that race isn't an issue, try learning something first.

I stand behind what i said!

Yeah who cares about the innocent men or the white women raped by minorities, that you left out, those type deserve it.

dammit. we are NOT, i reapeat NOT minorities. and this isn't about a white woman being attacked by "minorities"--it's a about a black woman who was allegedly raped by white men. why do people insist on ignoring this issue...

Brian--

If these women think that the Duke U. administration has been unfair, then they're wrong. The men's team served alcohol to minors and hired strippers in a university-owned house. More seriously, as a group they were uncooperative in a police investigation. They're lucky they weren't suspended from school.

And if these women think that the men's team thinks of them as peers, then they're idiots. Apparently, none of the women has asked themselves why their good friends on the Men's team didn't invite them to the party.

While I am not as offended by the bracelets as the author of this item, it did occur to me that it would have been nicer if a bunch of women could have worn bracelets that said "innocent" in reference to the woman who was raped and who subsequently had her entire life dragged through the coals.

CM:Yeah who cares about the innocent men or the white women raped by minorities, that you left out, those type deserve it.

N:dammit. we are NOT, i reapeat NOT minorities. and this isn't about a white woman being attacked by "minorities"--it's a about a black woman who was allegedly raped by white men. why do people insist on ignoring this issue...

Why would you insist on ignoring context? I am not addressing the girl on trial but Samhita herself or rather a direct quote of hers?

You know, the simplest response if you think the post was unfair/the women's team was right to do as it did, is just to say so, calmly. Instead, there seems to be a frothing rage that anyone *dare* to think for a second that this could be true! I don't know if it's true, and am willing to wait for the trial to see the evidence. But I have a sneaking suspicion that all this outrage isn't because some random guys were accused of rape, but because some *athletes* were accused of rape. Because ruining an athlete's career is apparently the worst crime imaginable. As opposed to, say, raping a woman. I think a lot of these particularly angry commentors overidentify a wee bit with their athletic gods, and are mostly mad that they're being treated like any random guy.

To the cries of "So what about all the white women raped by minorities?!" and the like, I would offer up this thought:

Oh yes, there is inter and intra-racial rape on all sides of the board... However, since I fail to see where exactly in the original post Samhita said other forms of racial rape do not exist, they don't really have a relevance to this particular article- or even really in what's going on with the Duke case at all.

Is it really offensive that one person, in one article, deals with one TYPE of scenario and one particular crime? Will you next be angry because the cable repairman didn't fix your TV, or your pediatrician didn't write papers about alzheimers?

Or is your point far sicker: That it is the right of men of one race to rape women of the other race, because their 'own women' get raped by other races, as if we're just your battlefield or way of keeping score?

Because that surely is how it starts to sound when it gets rehashed, regardless of the color of who's doing the hashing.

Could the people who are posting comments with two different names please stop, it's wack to create alternate identities in order to show support for your argument.

Why are some of the posters ignoring the issue that both the the defense team raking these women that reported the rape across the coals, then with seemingly the schools blessing, the accused rich white frat boy rapists are getting rah rah girls, and a fan club. Compare it to how a group of black men would be treated had they been accused of gang rape of white women?

The Duke Lacrosse girls need to ask thier "friends" the guys why they were flinging around the word nigger like a pinata. The need to ask them why they showed contempt for strippers they hired and expressed the disere to cut up and fuck the bodies of dead strippers. If I was the Duke women, even if I did think the guys didn't rape that stripper I'd take a hard damn look at them before I went around pledging my support. The mens team obviovly had a hidden contempt for blacks, if they didn't whythe racial slurs. They obcviosly have a contemot for women, if not why hire and denegrate two strippers. They obviously equate sex with violence, if notwhy write emails about mutilting and molesting dead women.

Thats what this post is about goddammit, about a team that if it empoys rapists or not thinks it can get away with whatever piggish prejudices it feels like, becuase obviosly it can just look at the armbands.

As always with the bad typing sorry everyone.

I don't support Duke at all allowing such a statement to be made by the team as the team represents the University- they wear Duke on their uniforms, so the university IS complicit. Also, I don't like the pressure of the team being complicit in perhaps forcing members of the women's team to make a statement they don't agree with. However, it may be that the women of the women's team are close friends with the men's team, and some of them may be making a personal choice to support the accused. I would not consider the womens team to be a rah rah team for the men. In instances where people are accused of crimes, there are always family members and friends that even in the face of evidence do not accept such- yes, it is irrational, but do the women need to get raked over the coals? If these weren't young women, but were say the accuseds grannies, would the grannies be accused of being complicit in their own oppression, or would we just shake our heads and say that's what grannies do, they support their grandkids. It is not rational, but if these women were the social circle of those men, and for whatever reason chose to be friends with them, this might not be surprising behavior. If however, these women are not merely mindless sheep blindly supporting those a-holes, does it say something about what local perceptions of the case are?

Suppose the wristbands read "Guilty" instead of "Innocent." Would that be better?

(as you wish V)
I thought this thread was about only white women being bad people for wearing bracelets side by side with WOC?

I thought we were still waiting for an explanation on that confusing seemingly ethnocentric statement? Also the fact Samhita says that the white women only are “complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color� Also shows she believes the men to be guilty. It’s not even really all that debatable.

h,
As to the white women being "complicit thier own oppression" see my above badly typed post. The emns lacrosse team even if they aren't rapists did some terrible things that no woman should get behind.

In fact they are complicit in the victimization of women of color becuase as I mention in my post, any talk of rape aside, they hired and denigraded poor black strippers at thier party hurling around racist slurs.

Samhita's bang on the mark here.

Do you really think that all of the women lacrosse players are "close personal friends" of the three accused? I doubt it.

For many of them, I suspect their race and/or class loyalties preclude aligning themselves with a working-class black woman.

I also wonder whether they just happened to find a handy-dandy source of sweatbands that say "innocent". Or could it be that some well-bankrolled defendants' lawyers had them specially made and distributed.

Just wondering...

hujo, if you could possibly entertain the idea that the male lacrosse players are credibly accused, I think it would be damn clear how white women are participating in their own oppression and that of women of color.

Those armbands say that their allegiances lie with a bunch of men who hired a black stripper, insulted her with racial slurs, and possibly raped her. That does not warrant some show of solidarity.

Samhita is exactly right. And your accusations of racism are severely misguided at best.

h,
As to the white women being "complicit thier own oppression" see my above badly typed post. The emns lacrosse team even if they aren't rapists did some terrible things that no woman should get behind.

In fact they are complicit in the victimization of women of color becuase as I mention in my post, any talk of rape aside, they hired and denigraded poor black strippers at thier party hurling around racist slurs.

There are WOC on the team wearing innocent braclets.

Just wondering...

“Just exposing MY prejudice�

“hujo, if you could possibly entertain the idea that the male lacrosse players are credibly accused, I think it would be damn clear how white women are participating in their own oppression and that of women of color.�

No see when your not bias you CAN’T do that.

There are WOC on the team