Here is a very detailed fact sheet on the incarceration of women nationally. Very recent info.

http://www.correctionalassociation.org/WIPP/publications/Women_Focus_2006.pdf

You may want to browse the correctional association (CA) website for other hard data on incarceration, particularly in NYS. The CA is one of the only ngos with the legislative authority to monitor conditions in prisons and make reports and reccomendations. Their Women in Prison Project does great work.

Giving criminal women more gender specific specialized programs, in a system that is already harsher on males is a great idea! Hey it worked for the health, education and justice systems.

Screw equality. Go matriarchy!

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or what, Hujo. "harsher on males" sounds like we're in some kind of competition for who gets worse treatment by a system that is unjust and inhumane in different ways towards its whole population. Below are some gender specific issues for incarcerated women. Answering to these issues is not making the environment "better," per se, but responsive to what the basic needs are for the population.

* A vast majority of incarcerated women are primary caregivers to dependent children, yet the justice system provides little to no opportunities toward the preservation of family ties. This affects more people than just the "criminals," but their kids, extended families and communities. (A significant number enter prison while pregnant, and there are reports of women having to give birth WHILE SHACKLED.) Their kids are taken away and put into foster care, and it is made exceedingly difficult for women to maintain contact with their kids, and by extension, custody rights.

* A vast majority have been victims of domestic violence, (in fact many are incarcerated for the "violent crime" of fighting back) and the prison environment has the effect of re-traumatizing them.

*Women get abused, molested and often raped by corrections officers, and when they report this occurence, guess where the burden of proof falls? And guess who gets off with a slap on the wrist?

* to answer to the "harsher on males" nonsense a bit. While men in prison get vocational programs in useful fields like computers, carpentry, and plumbing, only a small handful of women's prisons offer such programming. Instead we get gardening, poetry workshops, and alot more religious groups. This is a built in bias - assuming that women would not benefit from the skills-based, money-making programming. (meanwhile they most likely have more financial need upon release)

I repeat: "gender responsive" treatment does not f*ing mean special treatment. It means recognizing and answering to basic needs and rights, some of which happen to be tied to gender. The justice system is in many ways built on a male model - failing to recognize that the population is different, human needs are different, roots of crime are different, and potential areas for rehabilitation are different. I could go on more, but I hope you can understand where I'm coming from here. I have definitely done my homework.

As far as I knew not much concrete study has been made into the status of prisoners, for example in 2003 the burue of justice statistics released the prison rape elimination act. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/dcprea03.htm .

It basically states that they have no idea how much it can happen's because it is very difficult to monitor or find out genuine information. If your sources are a gender neutral look at the prison system conditions for both men and women I would be very much interested in them

I do know that women receive more lenient sentences for similar crime, especially in cases of domestic violence and statutory rape, which is why I referred to the justice system.

It would just be very sad to see prison conditions being yet another gender neutral issue be spun into a new woman’s campaign, they are making all these improvement for women, are they even monitoring men’s conditions? Why not give people in the prison system equal consideration? Why can’t the men have poetry class? The stereotyped gender interest in activities being presented thing so goes both ways.

Male prison rape has long been and still is a “funny rape� “Don’t drop the soap� “You’ll be ____ ____ in the state pen� ect ect. It is viewed as a male criminals “just desserts�.

So lets as a society only view women as the victims of that?

"As far as I knew not much concrete study has been made into the status of prisoners, for example in 2003 the burue of justice statistics released the prison rape elimination act. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/dcprea03.htm ."

* Bureau of Justice Statistics is a great place to start for data. I researched the rape elimination act before it became law in 2003 - it was really pushed for by men accross the country who had had the very real and very horrific experience of being raped while incarcerated. It becoming law is a great start, but I must say that it was created more with the intention to address the "inmate-on-inmate" side of things, and this happens more frequently in men's prison, though women's prisons are no picnic either in this sense.

* Rape by COs is underreported, period. You'll see that the BJS study is talking about "violent" attacks. It doesn't classify the gray area of women getting involved sexually with COs in order to get extra rolls of toilet paper and tampons. Do you think the COs are justified there?? I'm not calling it rape, per se, just letting you know it's common and COs are not in the right to take advantage. Not counted in the reports, but NOT ok.

"It basically states that they have no idea how much it can happen's because it is very difficult to monitor or find out genuine information."

* difficult, but not impossible, to monitor. I have worked with folks for almost 6 years who are trying to make NYS facilities put cameras in the back rooms and dark places where rapes occur. DOCS does not comply. When you're working to improve conditions in prisons, you are working against a beurocracy that thinks because it IS the law, it is ABOVE the law. And prisoners are considered (and treated) as less than human, so undeserving of fair treatment. Men AND Women. As evidenced by all those casual jokes we learn about "dropping the soap." Its fucked up. It's about power anyway you slice it, and sorry to take it here, but this is magnified in the case of women because the population of women that is incarcerated have been beaten up and molested all their lives (a majority of the men have too, though we're talking something like 60% men and 80% women as prior victims of domestic abuse). You put women in a scenario where she is told to submit to male authority, you are magnifying her traumatization and if nothing else, NOT rehabilitating anybody.

* This takes me to your next point.

" If your sources are a gender neutral look at the prison system conditions for both men and women I would be very much interested in them"

* I'm all for gender neutrality, but trust me, in the case of incarceration you should NOT BE gender neutral because there are very clear cut differences between men who are incarcerated and women who are incarcerated. They have to do with children, domestic violence, the types of crime (men are there for more violent crimes, women non-violent and drugs), roots of crime (women in prison are poorer and less educated then men in prison, more likely to commit crime out of a deeper need, ie to support their kids - or, they commit crimes related to being DV victims -this happens all the time- forced to be drug runners and then get locked up for 10 years while boyfriend goes free . . .), and the basic needs.

* I think that BOTH men and women deserve to have the punishment suit the crime. That both men and women who are addicted to drugs should be diverted to alternative programs. That both men and women who have mental illness should be refferred out for treatment. That women and men with kids should not be prevented from seeing their kids, and in fact, their kids are what will help "rehabilitate" them!! Programming should match the needs for both genders. I agree with you.

But gender neutrality, where it comes to prison, takes you to a tricky place. Women need tampons (and they usually have to PAY for them out of the meager bank that prisoners build while incarcerated.) Women need programs that help them recover from DV, and re-build self esteem. Women need to maintain custody of their kids. Women need programs that help them meet dire financial need upon release. If nothing else, they at least need EQUAL programming to men in this regard.

*And men get poetry and get horticulture, etc. Not sure of the federal stats, but in NYS, male facilities have about 30 programs available. Women have about 10. And the good ones (computers, carpentry) are not available at every women's facility and have waiting lists of a hundred women. Men are released with many more marketable skills, certainly in NYS, and I would bet, accross the board.

* BJS is a great source of data, if you're planning to go and call me on my exaggerations. I work with statewide coalitions made up of lawyers, policy analysts, and formerly incarcerated men and women. Trust me, BJS underreports for men AND women. They are above the law. Prisoners legal groups, formerly incarcerated men and women and prison watchdogs (like the one I first mentioned) see it first hand. It is fucked.

As you say other prisoners rape male prisoners more and it was only 3 years ago they decided to do anything about it. As a culture we still mock those male victims.

It’s great that you would try to stop injustices for women.

But to see women’s prisons become like women’s cancers or violence against women.

It would only further stagnate men by taking societies focus off of them and putting it on women.

Is it so hard to imagine dealing with the prison system as a whole why a push for women only?

P.S.Thank you, your response was informing. If you could link any info you have on the subject for men or women, I would appreciate it.

I will address the first part of your post in a minute.

I feel that prison is a microcosm for our most deep-rooted problems as a society - racism, sexism, and class-discrimination. Instead of addressing poverty, barriers to employment, violence, systemic oppression, and psychological issues which in many ways stem from the above social problems, we put a bandaid on the wound. We treat the symptoms as though they ARE the problem by fencing them into a box. Then we see the problems continue in that box. Sexism, racism, classism, violence and unfettered capitalism which profits off the backs of our wounds.

To sum up, prison activists work on multiple fronts because the number of injustices are too overwhelming to take on at once. I used to operate from the angle of sex discrimination - that prisons apply a uniform model to all prisoners, when some have very different needs, especially women as a group. I used to battle the unjust drug-laws, which waste billions on incarcerating people where drug treatment and a better distribution of resources could make a sustainable difference. Currently, I work as an advocate for people with mental illness, who represent almost 25% of people incarcerated today. Men and Women.

We are using prisons as a dumping ground for root social problems that we need to address in a humane and intelligent way. Sexism, Racism and Class discrimination. Problems on which our society was built. And prison activists address all of those things because they all overlap with each other. It is not possible to isolate one problem from another, so people who focus on women-only are not abandoning men. To look at it that way is very simplistic. People focusing on women are trying to change a situation that is unjust. As are all other prison activists. Moreover, the people working for change are very often the people most affected. Don't they have a right to pick the battles? Wouldn't the woman who was raped by a CO or who was incarcerated for defending herself against an abusive spouse or who had her kids taken away by illogical child welfare policy want to pick her battles based on her experience? By no means does that make women's experience the more important cause, only the most relevent to the person fighting for it.

Most prison activists who are not focusing on women-only, per se, recognize the importance of highlighting that angle of the bigger problem.

Anyway, those are my bigger thoughts on the issue. I'll stick some links on here when I get the time to put them together. www.prisonsucks.com is a good clearinghouse for a lot of research broken down by subject.

Sorry for the double post. And sorry for what's coming - I guess I have a lot of time on my hands this rainy Saturday.

I see where you're coming from, although I am concerned about your distinct bitterness towards women's causes. ("But to see women's prisons become like women's cancers and violence against women")

It always takes people who are most affected by something (ie breast cancer or domestic violence) to get together and call for change in systems that previously didn't give a fuck. As evidenced by the prison rape elimination act not being enacted until men who had been affected got up the courage to go public and submit testimony to the government. In our wonderful democratic society, issues that are about equality, human rights and dignity for all are not addressed by government without a fight. The people who decide to fight are the people who know first hand that they are getting a bum deal. Thus, there are women fighters, there are men fighters there are formerly incarcerated fighters and mentally ill fighters . . . people working to change a situation that they know in their hearts is unjust. I think that you worry too much that feminists, or women's rights groups are trying to make women's issues subsume all other causes. No. it's more about unjust issues that need to be addressed. Sorry if so many of them happen to be about women, but shit, sexism, hetero-sexism, patriarchy, gender roles and violence against women are very real things that very real women want to fight against. Why does that make you so mad?? We aren't fighting against men. We are fighting cultural attitudes and mindsets, and systemic barriers to equality.

Sorry for the rant, but your various angry posts throughout this site make me think that you have been misled about what feminism is. I hope you haven't dug your heels in too deep for the very intelligent and caring people on this site to make a dent in your thinking about it.

I don’t think it is especially women. I don’t think focusing on women will benefit men. I respect you for doing what you do and I respect your cause. I just hope we don’t lose site of the fact that racism, sexism, and classism was practiced by the elite, and not by men in general, and that in general men, are an asset to humanism/feminism and not a deterrent.

When we look at the prison system we see the patriarchy/government has no bones about incarcerating tons of poor men and minorities for much longer sentences than women and as you point out they show no regard for the sexual abuse they suffer and down play it along with women.

I think a humanistic approach to the system is better, that may mean more men getting involved in prison activism for men but that would be positive as well.

Thank you for future posting of links, and keep up the good work.

Hujo.

For someone who talks such big talk about gender neutrality and humanism, you sure do focus on women vs. men alot. You seem to think that men are either left behind by women's causes or totally demonized. Such issues as the one we've been dialoguing about have more to do with changing the system so it is EQUAL, not so that women win and men lose. I get this wierd vibe from you. What makes you so bitter against feminists?? We are not radical fundamentalist freaks - what we do really comes from somewhere and it isn't man hatred and the belief in the divine supremacy of women. Yet you seem to see that over and over in postings that are much more complicated than that.

"I just hope we don’t lose site of the fact that racism, sexism, and classism was practiced by the elite, and not by men in general, and that in general men, are an asset to humanism/feminism and not a deterrent."

And I don't think any of us feminists, at least not the ones you've been arguing with on this website, have lost sight of this.

"You seem to think that men are either left behind by women's causes or totally demonized"

They are left behind by women's causes, and in some cases, I do think they are demonized. Take rape for example. A feminist would say "Men rape". A non feminist would say "An individual raped."

This is one of the problems I see with feminism. It doesn't take people as individuals. Merely saying the first sentence makes out all men to be criminals, rather than the inividuals with problems that do commit the crimes. It has a kind of relationship like lying through ommision.

On the topic of men being left behind by womens movements, I do think this is completely true, though not entirely the fault of feminism.

I personally dislike both feminism and mens rights activism because while the two are seperate, they will always compete against eachother. What we need is a TRUE egalitarian movement. Many feminists have been responsible for downplaying the mens rights movement, and destroying its credibility in the public eye because, lets face it, feminism is a much larger and more established political pressure group and by doing so, it can make womens problems seem more important than mens.

I personally think that if feminism were noble enough to take on the mantle of looking after mens affairs aswell, social equality could progress on a much faster level than ever before.

Feminism does not Demonize men?

EM ever head of Catharine MacKinnon? Her new book is all about how women are weak and submissive and men are always the sexual initiators, there fore all collage sex is rape that has been her stance since the 70’s.

She is one of the ladies responsible along side Mary Koss for lying about rape statistics in order to turn collages and universities into pro-woman anti-male gender war zones where every man is a "Potential Rapist"

One in four was a big fucking lie and it served to demonize my generation and still does for those new men going to college.

Sorry Em I would say feminism has quite effectively demonized men.

A program like VAWA demonizez men as well.

Men=criminal/predator/abuser

Women=Victim

It's interesting how two people can look at a breadth of literature, knowledge and theory and see exactly what they want to. As I can see where you are coming from about some of these tendencies, I really hope that you can see that not ALL feminists do this, and that in fact, feminism is more akin to humanism than you would like to believe. For the most part, I don't think you are being fair. And for the most part, I think you're participation in this site is like a sick fascination for you. Like picking a scab or something - why are you so fucking involved in something you disagree with so wholeheartedly? You are not making very many friends because interspersed with postings that open dialogue are "screw equality go matriarchy" and accusations that we are man haters and hypocrites and such. I mean, I don't even want to continue this dialogue with you after seeing these sweeping statements that sum all feminists up with a broad brush, and break it down over and over to men vs. women. That simply is not how I see it. Sorry if some feminists have talked about killing off the male population and seizing the means of reproduction, but some christians talk about all gays going to hell. And yet, the core values can be practiced in a way that is for everyone. And I call myself a feminists and do not operate that way. Anyway, after looking at some of your other posts more recently I can't do this conversation anymore. It's been interesting, but I think we may be at an impasse.

Em your logic would imply that feminists are hateful for spending so much focus on the patriarchy. Either that or you are exposing a double standard in that women only have a right to righteous indignation.

It is not me, attacking feminsm as a whole or women in general or trying to roll back clocks or anything like that, you say you see validity to what I am saying, but then say I am closed minded, (Though, you your self have “opened my mind� or altered my research in this very thread.) I am merely exposing a different out look and this leads to an exchange of ideas and views.

If you feel the need to “drop me� for my views and ideas, that is your right, but a shame.

Good luck to you and your work.

Em, On last thing, you will not be posting your links?

Ok, sure

I did mention that www.prisonsucks.com is a good place to start, because it is a clearing house for tons of info broken down by subject. Follow the "research" link.

Not sure what state you're in, but there are very often local advocacy groups that focus on particular fucked up things going on. In New York, www.correctionalassociation.org does an excellent job, as a prison watchdog and research group. Good stats.

Otherwise, there's such a huge range of lit and analysis related to race, drug crimes, death penalty, poverty, I don't even know where to start. To be honest, I don't do much national research beyond BJS anymore. I am very aware of NYS prison policies because that's where I operate.

There are a lot of hard-hitting reports out there. Google Human rights watch, critical resistance, open society institute, vera institute of justice, prison activist resource center . . . most of these sites also have other links and you can learn a very great deal in a very short time.

Thanks Em! Thank you very much, there is no need for you to be a stranger.

Cheers!

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