Wheee. Again, more Men vs. Women from Ms. Dowd.

What about the increase of men signing up for cosmetic surgery these days?

Men are also increasingly more concerned about their body image, as well.

http://webcenter.health.webmd.netscape.com/content/article/100/105499.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/mbi1.html

Bottom line is, some members from both genders can and are equally superficial.

It isn't about women vs men -- and it seems to me that it's the anti-feminist camp who positions it that way, not feminists. Of course some members of both genders can be and are equally superficial. Members of both genders can be a lot of things. But that doesn't mean that certain social norms (like beauty) aren't weighted disproportionately on one gender over the other. The truth of the matter is that women as a group are pressured to strive for an impossible standard of physical perfection in ways that men aren't. Does every woman fall into this category? Of course not. Do many men? Yes. But the effects are disproportionately on women's shoulders.

Look at how much the beauty industry makes selling products to women, and how much the cosmetic surgery industry makes physically re-shaping women's bodies. Yes, some men use beauty products too, and some men get cosmetic surgery. No one is saying that men aren't affected by beauty norms. But the fact that women as a group are affected much, much more is undeniable.

Ahh, good ol' Maureen. She's the NYT's resentment columnist. She serves as the newsprint mouthpeice for the angry, selfish, wretchedly unhappy career woman who can’t understand why she is living alone in an apartment with two cats.

Men make women feel pressured to look good. The bastards. The monsters. How horrible. How rotten they are. Boo hoo hoo. Will highly-accomplished, famous, rich white women like her ever be allowed to win? Boo hoo. Men won't date her, so there's something wrong with men.

Maybe her bitterness has something to do with the fact that she only wants to date celebrities and isn't content to pursue a man who is less famous and rich than she is?

It's great that a New York Times writer wastes her precious column inches to complain about about what scum men are and (on other occasions) complain that she can't get a date. By contrast, Nick Kristof uses his column to talk about trivial things like alarming human rights abuses in Sudan, Burma, Cambodia, China and elsewhere. What's the use in publicizing stuff like that?

Wow, it's interesting that when the facts or the argument can't be argued against, certain types of people resort to personal attacks.

I've always like Dowd's columns. Haven't agree with all of them, but I have liked them all, and she is right on the money with this one.

This isn't about men vs. women, as Jill so well points out. Men and women are both victimised by a culture that puts too much emphasis on attractiveness. However, it is simply a numbers game that women are phenomenonly overrepresented in that kind of victimisation.

If you look at both quanitity and qualitity (ie amount and specific content) in the media, in print, in everyday talk, you can see how women are judged by the way they conform to a very narrow appearance criterion in a way that men simply aren't to anything like remotely the same degree.

This isn't a trivial matter, as all the girls/women dying from this pressure show.

"Wow, it's interesting that when the facts or the argument can't be argued against, certain types of people resort to personal attacks."

Yes, Sarah. I'm sure you're quite familiar with that. Any statement you don't like usually gets retracted if you call the speaker 'sexist', isn't that right?

"This isn't a trivial matter, as all the girls/women dying from this pressure show."

Oh. Right. I forgot. 150,000 women die of anorexia each year. Hidden Holocaust. Hidden slaughter. Boo hoo. Horrible.

Perhaps American woman should put on the Burkas so they don't have to be judged by their beuty. I think the Middle East is one step ahead of you ladies!!!

Verlch, that's a terrible, awful thing to say! Shame on you!

A woman ought to be allowed to wear anything she likes. But if a man makes a rude comment about her clothes, then the evil monster ought to get his ass sued-off. Or if you don't want to bother with lawyers, you're allowed to slap him hard across the face or deliver a swift kick to the trinkets. It's also good for a laugh.

You should really learn to accept that it's the American female perogative to to hit or sue a man who offends her but she is under no obligation to avoid offending anyone with what she wears. It's a completely equal system, you see.

Excuse me, only men judge women on physical standards?

It seems that Ms. Dowd (who was probably only hired because of affirmative action as she is a joke of a journalist) has forgotten one vital issue:

Other women reward ridiculous beauty standards.

Here is a perfect example: Britney Spears. Here is a woman who gotten by without any talent. She has gotten by soley on her surgically altered looks. The likes of her could be setting the bar for the standards of beauty that Ms. Dowd complains about.

But who buys Spears CDs?

NOT MEN.

Infact, female fans are the sole reason that Ms. Spears has even be able to have a pitiful excuse of a music career.

Seriously, do you know many guys who listen to her music, go to her concerts and buy her CDs?

Hell no.

Here's another example:

Cosmopolitan.

What kind of message do you think that is portraying to the world if a women's magazine only talks about looking hot, acting promiscuously and using manipulative methods to snag guys. Not once do I see any interesting articles on science, or anything intelligent for that matter. Do other guys support this? NO. It's other women who aren't responsable or intelligent enough to think for themselves and achieve things on their own merit. WITHOUT having to rely on their cleavage.

You see, it's other women that CHOSE to rely on their looks. And it's other women that encourage one another to act in this way, thus they keep a system that rewards good looks over intelligence going strong.

It's time women stopped perpetuating these ridiculous beauty standards. A good character, heart and mind is more beautiful and desirable than a boob job.

(Most guys I know would back me up on this!)

"The truth of the matter is that women as a group are pressured to strive for an impossible standard of physical perfection in ways that men aren't." --- Jill

I don't know about all men since I don't speak on their behalf, but I find this suggestion so far reaching I'm surprised you made this assumption. Alas . . .

Personally, I find that men are more forgiving and less hung up on looks with women than women are with men AND women. It is not much of a scientific assertion, but based on observations by myself and others in my sphere, as well as discussions on other forums.

I've dated both women that had a few extra pounds and women that were in shape like Milla Jovovich. I find feminity (sans moderately overweight or severly thin physiques) in more than one manifestation attractive, and I've seen men have relationships and marry women that vary in this aspect. Being ugly is no virtue in itself, but your "Plain Janes" often have male companions on their arms despite all of this alleged pressure to conform.

Contrast this with women who will refuse to even date guys who are slightly out of shape or Average Joes. I knew several who are picky beyond belief. If you aren't meterosexual looking, a pretty boy, the current trend of physicality/looks ("he's got a ponytail---yuck!") you're second rate at best. Then as a man, you're often left sitting home alone after a night at the local club.

I've been privy to conversations where women nitpick over physical attributes about men and women to death. These women can get downright nasty, without thinking twice about their judgments or looking in the mirror (proverbially and literally).

Mags like Cosmo their ilk are primarily produced and supported by women. This is an irrefutable fact. The idea that the fashion industry and the emphasis on a strict standard of beauty that women are pressured into is often enforced (socially and media-wise) by other women. Men like me didn't demand they dye their hair blond or go on a fast to have a wasp thin waist.

Speaking of which, without going into detail, I've had "fun" with women that were voluptuous, yet relished the fact I'm a muscular 6'4" Muay Thai/weightlifter that they could seduce. If I would have been 5'9" and had a pot belly with classic bookworm looks, they would have never looked at me twice. Mind you, they weren't Milla Jovovich-like hotties, but I obviously don't a have a problem having a good time with them, nor did I ever start barking orders at them how to look and to shed those extra pounds---or else. That would have been rather crass, since I was attracted to them initially, anyway. I work fairly hard to look this way and take pride in it; women find it appealing. But I didn't expect them to live up to an irrational standard whatsoever. That should tell you something.

I seriously wondered what sex is this culture is more superficial before (concerning matters of appearance), but I think you know what my bets would be on now if I was a gambling man.

"Then as a man, you're often left sitting home alone after a night at the local club."

Well, Xasthur- I think we can all see why you're a woman-hating hater of women. Because you're obviously hideously stupid. And a whiner, too.

Wanna know why you're probably sitting home alone all the time? In fact, women are only attracted to highly intelligent, cerebral and artistic genius-men with multiple college degrees who treat women with the utmost kindness and respect. You also need to be sensitive and in-touch with your emotions, women are attracted to men who cry (but they must cry when the woman wants him to cry, that is). And women certainly don't care about superficial things like your looks, your social status, how much money you make or whether you will impress their friends. That's just a stereotype.

You need to stop being a loser and stop being a misogynistic misogynist and women (who are never shallow or superficial in any way) will find you attractive based on that alone.

That is the reason woman wear Burkas in the middle east. So they can walk about and not be judged by their beuty and not have to compete with better looking women.

What is wrong with that. As much witching as American woman do over their looks its the same thing. A woman has to spend 6 hours a day looking good and then blame the world for it. If she simply put on a Burka and walked around it would save thousands of man hours trying to make herself look good. Thus she could get more done in a day at her pace.....

Ladies either enjoy your lives as a woman, or dawn a burka and go on your merry way!!

Jeez, feminists are to blame now for "slump-busting"? Are the witch hunts our fault, too?

"Are the witch hunts our fault, too?"
*not entirely serious* Weren't at least some of the accusations of witchcraft made by women? Handy way to deal with rivals, I imagine...

"A good character, heart and mind is more beautiful and desirable than a boob job."
Exactly!

Jessica, you say you enjoy keeping up 'sexist' posts to illustrate some of what females are up against, right?

Well, if that is the case then there must be another reason for deleting my last post. Did I perhaps ask a question people here aren't comfortable answering?

It was directed to Amanda in a humourous way because she is a poor debater and relies on emotional manipulation rather than logic or facts to prove a point. She is very difficult to take seriously.

Now, I will rephrase my question again because I would really like to hear the answers. It is a valid one in context to the topic of this thread.

Let's assume that men really DO place ridiculous beauty standards on women. It still wouldn't change the fact that women support these standards as I have clearly proven in my last post. Women are the ones that chose to buy into the idea of 'ridiculous beauty standards'. They're the ones that support other women that get by soley on their looks.

Now, my question that is: what would you propose be done to help combat this behaviour in women? And why do you think it is that other 'strong independent' women buy into the concept of using physical beauty as a weapon?

Other guys aren't putting a gun to their head and commanding "You WILL get that boob job." If they're with a guy like that, then it's their own fault for repeatedely going for those assholes.

This is a feminist site concerned about the plight of women, correct? Ok, fine. Then show me that you can walk your walk when it to being 'concerned' about what your sisters are doing to themselves.

Sorry I don't engage your arguments seriously. I probably should avoid making fun of you altogether, but it's just fun. But nah, trying to "argue" with someone whose reference points are not in the same reality I occupy seems like a pointless exercise.

For instance, in your reality, I'm supposed to pretend that your "arguments" are serious attempts to engage my intellect instead of nasty insults aimed at me for my sex.

Sweet, darling, Amanda.

Pray, do tell. If in your reality you perceive the sky to be green, you're going to always shoot anyone down that says it's blue.

You still haven't answered my questions or tried to prove them wrong. I really want to know what you guys think about the situation I have pointed out. Being female doesn't have to mean being blinded by the things that members of your own sex do wrong. Doing otherwise would be stupid.

See what I mean about you being a poor debater? And Jessica, for goodness sake, don't delete this post if you feel threatened by it.

Let people read them and come to their own intelligent conclusions, even if it's one you don't agree with.

I am a guy and I was disgusted to read about slump busting and how Canseco boasts about it. Good that Maureen decided to write about this. Most American male athletes have pretty much their own shit between their ears to boast about(other than steroid induced muscles). Someone should remind them that their dads have been "slump busting" (in their words) most of their lives since, I betcha, their moms are "ugly fat and knotty". Perhaps due to their (the dads) awesome sacrifices do we have such wonderful athletes to entertain us!!

SupaSpy, I only delete comments that are verbally abusive. So if you play nice you can stay.

But I do find your assumtion that I'm threatened by you pretty amusing.

"Let's assume that men really DO place ridiculous beauty standards on women...Women are the ones that chose to buy into the idea of 'ridiculous beauty standards'."

Several things. Ever heard of people internalizing the things they are told every day? Everyone around us talks about the beauty standard, and the cosmetic/fashion/etc industries DEPEND on women feeling like they're not good enough and thus must run out and buy this or that thing to make them pretty and desireable. OF COURSE women are socialized to beat each other down about it! If women have anything to do with supporting unrelistic beauty standards, it's because we're in COMPETITION for men, and those men TEND to demonstrate their interest in "beauty" as defined by pop culture. I can't say how many guys I know that always talk about finding a "hot" girl, with no interest whatsoever in their personality. This does not mean that ALL men are like this, only that MANY are, and when one group of people are socialized to think this way, it's called patriarchy.

"Now, my question that is: what would you propose be done to help combat this behaviour in women? And why do you think it is that other 'strong independent' women buy into the concept of using physical beauty as a weapon?"

Many women use what we define as "beauty" as a weapon because of social expectations. "Beautiful" people get better jobs, make more money, and are generally more successful than average looking people. Who wouldn't use their beauty to get ahead? When the other option is to be called a bitch for being strong and independent, or intimidating for being too smart and "upstaging" the men in their lives. Polls show that men, on average, prefer women who make equal or less money than them, so it seems like women who want a mate need to be pretty rather than smart and successful. So, women's response is totally rational.

What we should do about it is challange gender expectations as well as beauty expectations. When you have girlfriends (or guys for that matter) who say "oh I'm so fat" when they're not, ask them why they think they are. When you have a girlfriend say "oh she's such a dog" ask her why she felt the need to point it out.